U.S. Pairs 2021-22 season - News & Updates, Part X

[AxelAnnie]

I wish Ashley had not made that video clip. She certainly was not up to it.

 

[zoe111]

From your mention of spatial reasoning in particular, it occurred to me that pairs skating (or skating in general) might be a sport where athletes could be at particularly high risk for having repeat concussions simply due to these lingering effects. It makes sense that there could be long-term symptoms that would influence things like timing and body awareness, which are pretty critical in keeping these athletes safe. So it’s not even just that they have to worry that it might happen again. They might actually have a greater chance of concussion than they did before, since some of the lingering effects even after someone is mostly recovered can last years. I have no idea if there have been studies regarding whether some sports are riskier than others post-concussion for reasons involving coordination and timing, but it would make sense.

i don't know the answer to this but i can tell you as a parent of a competitive skater who had two head injuries, one not from skating, one from skating that was less serious, we were told the second time that the risk of even a mild further injury could be very serious as it takes a lot less of a blow the second time (and third) to generate more damage. Thus, at 14, we made the decision that that was the end of her skating. It is up to Ashley but my strong recommendation is to stop to be honest

 

[Karen-W]

Interesting tidbit dropped in the TSL Worlds recap that Olivia Serafini had a tryout with Danny O'Shea. Dave said that Danny's still deciding his future, but it sounds like Chelsea Liu might be done? Which wouldn't be all that surprising after Warsaw Cup.

 

[Wyliefan]

Poor Chelsea. Totally understandable, but what a shame.

 

[Firedancer]

Raf congratulating Todd Sand on K/F’s win:
https://www.instagram.com/p/CbtTBAdpSNk/?utm_medium=copy_link

 

[olympic]

Poor Chelsea. Totally understandable, but what a shame.

She puzzled me. She was always a bit inconsistent but when she came back from CHN, she was landing jumps but then reverted back to being inconsistent, more often than not falling on jumps

 

[kirkbiggestfan]

Serafini is a great jumper. I can't recall a woman pair skater jumping so high. It has to be tempting for Danny.

 

[Trillian]

Serafini is a great jumper. I can't recall a woman pair skater jumping so high. It has to be tempting for Danny.

I had a really hard time gauging her potential as a pairs skater because it never felt like she and Mervin were able to hit their stride as a team. (Not for lack of talent, but I doubt it was an easy couple of years.) I’d be interested to see her with another partner. And I’d be thrilled to see Danny back in any context.

 

[LeftwingPianist]

I'd love to see Danny O'Shea with a compatible partner.

I'm surprised to hear that Serafini and Tran were together off-ice. It sure didn't translate to their skating; they had very little chemistry. I hope this isn't the case with O'Shea & Serafini. O'Shea had NO chemistry or connection with Chelsea and I'm ready to see a pair that actually has a spark (not saying romantic, just ANY spark/connection!). I'm glad Chelsea has moved on and opened the door for O'Shea to find a better partner for him. I really hope he makes the best of this opportunity.

 

[skatfan]

Dave said that Danny's still deciding his future, but it sounds like Chelsea Liu might be done? Which wouldn't be all that surprising after Warsaw Cup

I don’t remember seeing much out publicly after the accident. It may be that she has had to stop skating, or simply decided further risk is not worth it.

 

[Trillian]

O'Shea had NO chemistry or connection with Chelsea and I'm ready to see a pair that actually has a spark (not saying romantic, just ANY spark/connection!).

I thought they had solid chemistry for a new team and probably would have been fine in that area in the long run. They were good at conveying that they enjoyed skating together. Danny has a really natural, engaging style that would probably complement most partners. Given his age and the fact that so many male pairs skaters over 30 have issues with chronic injuries, if he starts over with a new partner, I hope it’s someone with a great technical foundation. He’s got a pretty short window left to realistically compete at that level.

 

[Karen-W]

I really hope that Knierim/Frazier's success pushes more of our younger men into pairs skating. I worry because it doesn't seem like we have too many men who would make good pairs partners and I really want to see US pairs thrive and prosper.

 

[Trillian]

I really hope that Knierim/Frazier's success pushes more of our younger men into pairs skating. I worry because it doesn't seem like we have too many men who would make good pairs partners and I really want to see US pairs thrive and prosper.

The challenge to developing male pairs skaters (or lifting partners, to be more inclusive) is always that they need to be big enough to lift and throw a partner, but also have to be able to land a couple of triples reasonably consistently. And it’s not a coincidence that most skaters who can jump are not that big. The more demanding the solo jump requirements get, the fewer men will have the full package for elite pairs skating. And that’s before you factor in finding a well-matched partner, and in most countries, paying the bills and other logistics.

On top of that, people talk a lot about developing male pairs skaters without realizing that strong female pairs skaters are rare, too. Yes, there are more of them - but very few with the potential to be world class. We would probably have a stronger pairs program on the whole if the most talented girls weren’t so often treated like they’re easily replaceable. They’re not.

Honestly, I think at this point, pairs skating has very little long term viability as a discipline. It’s only been successful in countries with very large talent pools, and even more so in situations where training is government funded. There’s a reason there are so few elite pairs teams in the world at any given time. It has the most limited range of physical characteristics of any skating discipline among the top athletes, it takes many years to get really good at it (which means $$), and there’s a huge risk of injury. And for any well-matched team, there are a million variables that could derail them. Yes, federations with the resources could invest more in pairs, but I also understand why they don’t.

 

[LeftwingPianist]

I really hope that Knierim/Frazier's success pushes more of our younger men into pairs skating. I worry because it doesn't seem like we have too many men who would make good pairs partners and I really want to see US pairs thrive and prosper.

I hope so too. Pairs is my favorite discipline.

I think Spencer Howe (of Chan/Howe) is an amazing pairs skater and I really hope Chan can start landing her jumps. That's really the only thing holding them back at this point. At 25, Howe has beautiful posture & lines, consistent jumps, strong lifting ability, and great musicality & expression (and it doesn't hurt that he is gorgeous to boot!). He is the total package!

But yes, I don't know of any up and coming junior US pairs... Then again, I don't follow junior pairs. Anyone know of any promising young US pairs?

 

[LoisAGOEs]

I hope so too. Pairs is my favorite discipline.

I think Spencer Howe (of Chan/Howe) is an amazing pairs skater and I really hope Chan can start landing her jumps. That's really the only thing holding them back at this point. At 25, Howe has beautiful posture & lines, consistent jumps, strong lifting ability, and great musicality & expression (and it doesn't hurt that he is gorgeous to boot!). He is the total package!

But yes, I don't know of any up and coming junior US pairs... Then again, I don't follow junior pairs. Anyone know of any promising young US pairs?

Smirnova/Siianytsia are promising except for Smirnova’s issues landing her jumps. They’ll be moving to Senior full time next season.

Sonia Baram / Daniel Tioumentsev have incredible potential, they should be making their JGP debut next season.

 

[flyingsit]

Fully agree that Spencer Howe should be competing on the World level.

 

[Trillian]

Considering how many discussions of promising pairs end with “but she has trouble landing her jumps,” I wonder if the focus on developing male pairs skaters is actually completely the wrong approach. The U.S. has a great track record of developing guys like Danny O’Shea and Rockne Brubaker… and then going, “Oh no, we don’t have anyone to skate with him.”

Maybe if the most promising girls got more attention, resources, and encouragement to go into pairs, and the power dynamics weren’t so skewed in favor of the boys because we recognize that talented pair girls have equal value, those guys wouldn’t have such a hard time finding a good match at the highest levels.

 

[PRlady]

At any given moment there are small US girls with nice skating skills and presentation who can’t master the harder jumps. So theoretically the talent pool is there.

Except they need courage for pairs skating. The risk of serious injury is high. Looking at Chelsea and Ashley and previous serious injuries, I’d bet most parents of young skaters don’t want their daughters to take the risk. The pool is not going to get larger due to the nature of the discipline.

 

[Trillian]

At any given moment there are small US girls with nice skating skills and presentation who can’t master the harder jumps. So theoretically the talent pool is there.

This is true and I agree with your other points about the risks as well. But a lot of the girls who end up in pairs skating are the ones who can just manage to learn one or two triples, and then they struggle with those jumps as they get older or they were never very consistent in the first place. When you look at the guys, you’re a lot more likely to find someone who has a solid set of triples but can’t quite level up to being competitive with a triple axel or quad. (Danny O’Shea is a perfect example; he was a US novice champ before he switched to pairs.) They don’t need to keep every triple, but the more they could do in the first place, the more likely they are to keep a couple of reliable triples as they transition to pairs. So realistically, we probably need skaters who are at least strong enough jumpers to be JGP-caliber singles skaters to form strong pairs teams. And that pool is a lot smaller.

 

[haribobo]

Maybe if the most promising girls got more attention, resources, and encouragement to go into pairs, and the power dynamics weren’t so skewed in favor of the boys because we recognize that talented pair girls have equal value, those guys wouldn’t have such a hard time finding a good match at the highest levels.

For 10+ years, US pairs basically was Dalilah's camp plus the occasional Jim P. pair appearance. USFS looked the other way when the coaches like Dalilah and co. cast aside Caitlin Yankowskas, Sarah Feng, and probably ignored whatever issues were going on with Keauna and Mary Beth Marley, and subjected Tarah Kayne (and probably most or all of those others I just listed) and many others to emotional abuse. That sentence probably had terrible grammar but you get my point. All one has to do is look at the sad story of Rockne and Danny's partners (and I believe them to be nice guys caught up in a rotten system). The Dalilah camp was our version of the Karolyi Texas compound, minus the high level training aspect. Its a miracle that as many skaters lasted as long as they did with what went on there. I hate to keep bringing this up but its important that we not be mystified as to what went wrong. We all know better, that an abusive woman was allowed to take control of a whole discipline. I knew when Jim P lost his best (at the time, I still say Evora/Ladwig were his absolute legends) team to that camp and their results and skating actually got worse, that something really stunk.

I am really glad that our world champions survived her and are bringing a new/better coaching team to prominence.

 

[clairecloutier]

Except they need courage for pairs skating. The risk of serious injury is high. Looking at Chelsea and Ashley and previous serious injuries, I’d bet most parents of young skaters don’t want their daughters to take the risk. The pool is not going to get larger due to the nature of the discipline.

#truth

In my mind, a principal advantage of starting pairs, for women, is the possibility of a much longer career than they can generally hope for in singles. But, the injury risk truly is scary. Injuries can and do happen in all disciplines of skating, but the potential for injury in pairs is definitely . Between that, and the gender power imbalance in the discipline, it's a wonder we have as many pairs skaters as we actually do.

This is true and I agree with your other points about the risks as well. But a lot of the girls who end up in pairs skating are the ones who can just manage to learn one or two triples, and then they struggle with those jumps as they get older or they were never very consistent in the first place. When you look at the guys, you’re a lot more likely to find someone who has a solid set of triples but can’t quite level up to being competitive with a triple axel or quad. (Danny O’Shea is a perfect example; he was a US novice champ before he switched to pairs.)

These statements are in some cases true, but not across the board. I also think that an overreliance on side-by-side jumping prowess in forming pairs is a bit of a slippery slope. Brandon Frazier is now a World champion, and if he ever landed anything beyond a triple toe loop or Salchow, I've not heard of it. Conversely we also have skaters right now, like Katie McBeath and Megan Wessenberg and Chase Finster, who could do triple Lutz in their singles careers but still are mastering pairs skills and working their way up. Side-by-side jumps are important, but are not the sole or most important predictor of success in pairs IMO.

 

[Trillian]

For 10+ years, US pairs basically was Dalilah's camp plus the occasional Jim P. pair appearance. USFS looked the other way when the coaches like Dalilah and co. cast aside Caitlin Yankowskas, Sarah Feng, and probably ignored whatever issues were going on with Keauna and Mary Beth Marley, and subjected Tarah Kayne (and probably most or all of those others I just listed) and many others to emotional abuse. That sentence probably had terrible grammar but you get my point. All one has to do is look at the sad story of Rockne and Danny's partners (and I believe them to be nice guys caught up in a rotten system). The Dalilah camp was our version of the Karolyi Texas compound, minus the high level training aspect. Its a miracle that as many skaters lasted as long as they did with what went on there. I hate to keep bringing this up but its important that we not be mystified as to what went wrong. We all know better, that an abusive woman was allowed to take control of a whole discipline. I knew when Jim P lost his best (at the time, I still say Evora/Ladwig were his absolute legends) team to that camp and their results and skating actually got worse, that something really stunk.

There were red flags galore for a very long time. I was a big fan of Tarah and Danny, so it’s heartbreaking to me that their partnership ended that way. But I’m also thankful that Tarah decided to speak publicly about her experiences, because it made a difference.

Honestly, though, there was a toxic culture in U.S. pairs skating that was well-established before Delilah rose to prominence. I knew of multiple cases around 20 years ago where male pairs skaters (who had nothing to do with Dalilah) got away with some truly horrific behavior. A lot of people knew and supported the guys anyway, or at minimum, looked the other way. Even many of the “nice” guys partied with and “dated” very young girls, were more overtly homophobic than any other skaters I encountered, and had casual conversations about which pair girls were “too big.” It was ugly, and one of the reasons Dalilah was able to be so successful was because the way she operated was reinforcing a culture that already existed.

I don’t know anyone in elite skating anymore. I hope the pairs culture really is getting better. But for a while there, it was really, really bad.

 

[SkateFanBerlin]

Wow. Pairs tell-all. Speaking of guys, usually they are big. Then, there's Sui/Han. Maybe she was just so light it was possible. Maybe you don't have to be huge - Jason size, maybe?

 

[Trillian]

Speaking of guys, usually they are big. Then, there's Sui/Han. Maybe she was just so light it was possible. Maybe you don't have to be huge - Jason size, maybe?

Some size difference between partners is necessary for the lifts and throws, but we obviously have ample evidence (Sui & Han, Cain-Gribble & Leduc, and a few other teams) that it doesn’t have to be as extreme as the ideal was for a while.

I don’t think the guys necessarily need to be that tall, but they do need to build muscle in different ways than singles skaters usually do. Jason would certainly need to change up his gym routine a little.

 

[AYS]

Wow. Pairs tell-all. Speaking of guys, usually they are big. Then, there's Sui/Han. Maybe she was just so light it was possible. Maybe you don't have to be huge - Jason size, maybe?

Definitely doable if the girl is really small. Although they both became much more known for singles, Rudy Galindo was an excellent pairs partner to Kristi Yamaguchi, and he's quite small - shorter than Jason, I'd say. Of course Kristi is tiny. Rudy had a bulkier physique when in pairs, probably from doing more strength training for the discipline.

And on the flip side, Ashley and Timothy have shown you can make a successful pair with a taller girl if the man on the taller side too.

 

[AxelAnnie]

Wow. Pairs tell-all. Speaking of guys, usually they are big. Then, there's Sui/Han. Maybe she was just so light it was possible. Maybe you don't have to be huge - Jason size, maybe?

The height/size difference may make easier for the guy with the lifts. However then you have to match stroking which could be tricky.
As to Sui/Han....he was simply not going to skate with anyone anyone else.
Unlike the USA teams who get new partners if someone has a crooked eyebrow. Instant gratification.
Sui has amazing core strength which accounts for her ability to get lifted. I read somewhere that core strength gets you up there.

 

[haribobo]

Some size difference between partners is necessary for the lifts and throws, but we obviously have ample evidence (Sui & Han, Cain-Gribble & Leduc, and a few other teams) that it doesn’t have to be as extreme as the ideal was for a while.

Well, both teams racked up some pretty vicious injuries by the end. But OLY gold is pretty nice.

 

[zoe111]

Well, both teams racked up some pretty vicious injuries by the end. But OLY gold is pretty nice.

And to be honest I always found CG/LD lifts to be really really scary. Their twist improved a lot but the lifts always wobbled and were really slow

 

[SkateFanBerlin]

Definitely doable if the girl is really small. Although they both became much more known for singles, Rudy Galindo was an excellent pairs partner to Kristi Yamaguchi, and he's quite small - shorter than Jason, I'd say. Of course Kristi is tiny. Rudy had a bulkier physique when in pairs, probably from doing more strength training for the discipline.

And on the flip side, Ashley and Timothy have shown you can make a successful pair with a taller girl if the man on the taller side too.

Ashley & Tim struggled, though. This year I think Tim added more bulk/muscle. I always think it's the girl who has to be super slim. But, the guy could strengthen-up also. Then again, I know nothing of pairs.

 

[barbk]

Gymnastics disallows moves they consider too dangerous fairly regularly. I believe diving deducts/devalues dives that go too close to the platform.

I used to be freaked out at how close skaters did SBS camel spins back in the '90s, but there seems to have been a significant trend since then to open up more space between the skaters. There were some awful accidents with those spins.

Are there lift elements that statistically have a higher fall rate? Should some of those be disallowed?

I can't even watch junior pairs. I have no idea how the parents of those skaters cope.