U.S. Pairs 2020-21 season - News & Updates, Part XI

mpal2

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12,719
:lol: True.

But still....

I don't know. It just doesn't seem like a smart plan to ensure competitive chances.
 

pairskatingfan

Active Member
Messages
316
Personally this has to stop. USFS needs to quit acting like they "own" these kids. If they can't give them the opportunity let them go. Their behavior is one reason I am hesitant to support them. They give the kids tiny amounts of money (compared to the costs involved) and then act like it's "hurting" them to let a skater go skate somewhere else. Quit being jerks!
Wow, looks like USFS is just like the NCAA, except at least the college athletes get schooling out of it.
 

haribobo

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8,154
Henderson Nevada Nov24-28 Sectional-type Champion Series event (qualifier for Nationals)


Senior Pairs registered-

From SA field- Knierim/Frazier, Calalang/Johnson, Cain/Leduc, Chan/Howe, Kayne/O'Shea

Other teams-McBeath/Bartholomay, Burden/Rounis, Deardorff/Johnson, McIsaac/Sadusky

Junior Pairs
Anastasiia Smirnova/Danil Siianytsia
Haley Scott/Nick Hubbart
Ainsley Peterson/Nathan Rensing
Kayla Black/Kamden Black
Mandy Romero/Jake Pagano
Hannah Kim/Scott Dudley
Valentina Plazas/Maximiliano Fernandez
Haley Conrad/Kristofer Ogren
Alexandra Prudsky/Daniel Tioumentsev

Novice Pairs
Estelle Schwab/Jaden Schwab
Sonia Baram/Blake Edwards
Sylvia Wong/Skylar Weirens

Top 9 total scores of all senior pairs in series (not already qualified via top 5 from last year (K/O, C/J, C/L) or top 4 in ISP (Knierim/Frazier, Lu/Mitrofanov, Serafini/Tran, McBeath/Bartholomay) qualify for Nationals.
Top 12 total scores of all junior pairs in series qualify for Nationals.

Pairs entries for the Norwood, MA event have not been posted yet, but it starts Nov 10 if its able to be held at all...
 
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alexikeguchi

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740
Has anyone heard an explanation of why Ashley and Tim were dinged so badly on their side by side jumps that looked textbook? Tara and Johnny went over the replay several times and seemed to have no idea why they got a DG.
 

RoseRed

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1,714
Has anyone heard an explanation of why Ashley and Tim were dinged so badly on their side by side jumps that looked textbook? Tara and Johnny went over the replay several times and seemed to have no idea why they got a DG.
Textbook? Hers was < at a minimum
 

Theatregirl1122

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22,980
Has anyone heard an explanation of why Ashley and Tim were dinged so badly on their side by side jumps that looked textbook? Tara and Johnny went over the replay several times and seemed to have no idea why they got a DG.

What do you think the explanation is going to be? Super sekret evil konspiracy that the judges admit to on TV? The only explanation for any downgraded jump is that the technical panel felt that it was half a turn short of rotation and therefore called it downgraded. I haven't watched the slo-mo so I have no opinion on what the right call is, but there literally isn't another "explanation" for a downgraded jump other than that the tech panel believed it should be downgraded. What are you looking for?
 

alexikeguchi

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740
What do you think the explanation is going to be? Super sekret evil konspiracy that the judges admit to on TV? The only explanation for any downgraded jump is that the technical panel felt that it was half a turn short of rotation and therefore called it downgraded. I haven't watched the slo-mo so I have no opinion on what the right call is, but there literally isn't another "explanation" for a downgraded jump other than that the tech panel believed it should be downgraded. What are you looking for?
No need to get snippy. I was just looking for consensus on whether I was missing an obvious >half turn cheat that everybody else saw. I can usually see such obvious cheats even in real time but didn't see this one, and the commentators also didn't see it over multiple replays including slow motion. To me, Ashley may have rotated the last quarter on her toepick based on the slow motion only but came out on a great running edge, which is generally not compatible with landing forwards.
 

Theatregirl1122

Needs a nap
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22,980
No need to get snippy. I was just looking for consensus on whether I was missing an obvious >half turn cheat that everybody else saw. I can usually see such obvious cheats even in real time but didn't see this one, and the commentators also didn't see it over multiple replays including slow motion. To me, Ashley may have rotated the last quarter on her toepick based on the slow motion only but came out on a great running edge, which is generally not compatible with landing forwards.

Tara and Johnny are the last people I'd ask to review a call. Maybe in real life, but certainly not on NBC where they aren't remotely unbiased. But there's discussion of what people saw in the competition thread.
 

Sylvia

Wishing I could go back to the Lake Placid JGP
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62,789
Final standings of the 7 U.S. pairs at Skate America (ISR was 8th):

1 Alexa SCIMECA KNIERIM /Brandon FRAZIER, USA 74.19 (1) 140.58 (1) 214.77
2 Jessica CALALANG / Brian JOHNSON, USA 71.08 (2) 136.32 (2) 207.40
3 Audrey LU / Misha MITROFANOV, USA 67.52 (3) 122.13 (4) 189.65
4 Ashley CAIN-GRIBBLE / Timothy LEDUC, USA 64.21 (4) 125.02 (3) 189.23
5 Tarah KAYNE / Danny O'SHEA, USA 59.86 (5) 114.49 (5) 174.35
6 Olivia SERAFINI / Mervin TRAN, USA 59.67 (6 )108.40 (6) 168.07
7 Emily CHAN / Spencer Akira HOWE, USA 55.58 (7) 95.57 (8) 151.15
 

NAOTMAA

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Messages
805
No need to get snippy. I was just looking for consensus on whether I was missing an obvious >half turn cheat that everybody else saw. I can usually see such obvious cheats even in real time but didn't see this one, and the commentators also didn't see it over multiple replays including slow motion. To me, Ashley may have rotated the last quarter on her toepick based on the slow motion only but came out on a great running edge, which is generally not compatible with landing forwards.
I'm actually surprised they called it. If it were an international competition with international judges then I wouldn't be shocked but this was basically Nationals 2.0 and judging there is usually crazy generous. Hell even if it were a regular internationally competed Skate America the home team usually still gets the generous benefit of doubt.

So Ashley not getting the benefit of doubt on that jump was surprising when the overall judging of the week was very generous score wise across the board. The judges easily could have gotten away with not calling it. You don't normally see fine tooth comb judging at a national event unless its to prop up a skater. It felt like the judges really wanted to take a hammer to them for some reason.
 
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AngieNikodinovLove

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5,460
So I asked this in the Bradie fan page but did skate America use all American judges? It kind of looks so by the names. If so is this really an ISU event? Yes I know they’re limiting travel but still.

I do somewhat think an international panel gives Ashley and Timothy and also Bradie their due where if you put it up to an American panel of judges they go for Mariah and ding Ashley and Tim for an under rotation I still can’t see

Also I don’t understand why Ashley and Tim don’t get +5 across-the-board for the side-by-side spin in SP. Ain’t no other couple in the world can do that and it’s going to be a long long time before a guy comes along and can achieve Timothy’s positions. That should be rewarded. It’s Something different versus the same old positions everyone else does all the time. And Ashley and Tim are never not in sync.
 

NAOTMAA

Well-Known Member
Messages
805
So I asked this in the Bradie fan page but did skate America use all American judges? It kind of looks so by the names. If so is this really an ISU event? Yes I know they’re limiting travel but still.

I do somewhat think an international panel gives Ashley and Timothy and also Bradie their due where if you put it up to an American panel of judges they go for Mariah and ding Ashley and Tim for an under rotation I still can’t see

Also I don’t understand why Ashley and Tim don’t get +5 across-the-board for the side-by-side spin in SP. Ain’t no other couple in the world can do that and it’s going to be a long long time before a guy comes along and can achieve Timothy’s positions. That should be rewarded. It’s Something different versus the same old positions everyone else does all the time. And Ashley and Tim are never not in sync.
It's weird that Ashley and Tim were judged as they were considering at the last world championships that were held they placed top 10 and got the US two spots back. One would think the USFSA would still remember that.

What happened to them in the SP kind of felt like what happened to Ashley Wagner in 2018, a clear and obvious dropping by the federation. So what happened? Last season didn't exactly go well but its not like the US is currently overloaded with consistent pairs teams to easily replace them. L/M and C/J have potential but neither team was exactly consistent here either and yet the judges clearly propped them up. K/F were amazing but are still not totally tested and it remains to be seen what happens with them. So why judge so harshly a team that once placed top 10 in the world?

maybe its a total overreaction but it feels like that's what happened here
 
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SorrySkater

New Member
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11
I admit that I haven’t gone back and looked closely at their SBS jumps. Ashley 2-footed the landing on at least one throw jump that I saw in real time, and it was clear in the replay as well. I saw some unison issues in the jumps as well. I’m probably in the minority here, but A&T leave me cold. They come across to me as two strong skaters with good skills that just happen to be on the ice at the same time.

A modest question: would they benefit from new coaches? I cannot help but think that both A&T and Amber Glenn would by much improved by going to a coach who would provide additional polish to their skills and presentation.
 

zoe111

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Messages
514
It's weird that Ashley and Tim were judged as they were considering at the last world championships that were held they placed top 10 and got the US two spots back. One would think the USFSA would still remember that.

What happened to them in the SP kind of felt like what happened to Ashley Wagner in 2018, a clear and obvious dropping by the federation. So what happened? Last season didn't exactly go well but its not like the US is currently overloaded with consistent pairs teams to easily replace them. L/M and C/J have potential but neither team was exactly consistent here either and yet the judges clearly propped them up. K/F were amazing but are still not totally tested and it remains to be seen what happens with them. So why judge so harshly a team that once placed top 10 in the world?

maybe its a total overreaction but it feels like that's what happened here
I don’t know. I felt like they made clear mistakes in both the short and long. On replay the Sal in the short program wasn’t around although I couldn’t tell whether it merited a downgrade. But the twist definitely came down wrong- she landed smack on his shoulder- seriously noticeable on the replay. Same mistake in the twist in the long, fall on the loop , odd takeoffs on the Sal, and noticeably slower than C/J and SK/F- at least to me. Maybe they just need a little more time back on this ice.
 

Sylvia

Wishing I could go back to the Lake Placid JGP
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Lynn Rutherford's Skate America Pairs article (ETA: scroll down now that the Ice Dance recap has been added above it): https://www.teamusa.org/News/2020/O...tunning-Grand-Prix-Debut-To-Win-Skate-America

Excerpts:
“I made a joke to Brandon when we got our score — I said, ‘This partnership is going to work,’” she said. “We feel like our hard work is being validated. We’re excited to keep improving.”
... While Frazier takes the lead developing lifts, he changed his throw technique to better match his new partner’s. Chris Knierim, who retired from competition in February, joined the coaching team in Irvine and is helping his wife and her new partner develop their elements.
...
“I kind of felt in the beginning, I needed Chris’ approval or support with everything I was doing,” Alexa Knierim said. “Now that Brandon and I are training full throttle, I feel more confident and I depend on Chris more emotionally. He always gives me a high five or talks about any positive things he’s seeing. It helps me a lot, and we have a new level to our personal relationship.”
C/J:
“Because we really didn’t have an idea about what the competitive season was going to be like, we were able to challenge ourselves with the transitions,” Calalang said. “We would get a transition from Cindy and if it became too easy, or if it didn’t work to our advantage, we could rework it. It was nice not to have that stress that you had to be ready by a certain time.”
...
“Well, for me, my jumps were not to my standard in the program,” Calalang said. “We got here on Monday and had three days practice before the competition. It was difficult to conserve energy. Besides my jumps, the lifts felt good.”
“We’re very happy with the lifts and the twist,” Johnson said. “I thought I had a Level 4 (best level) in the death spiral, but … next time.”
L/M:
Audrey Lu and Misha Mitrofanov, third after the short, skated their free to a playful, energetic Charlie Chaplin medley. The 2018 U.S. junior champions, who recently relocated with coach Alexei Letov from Texas to the newly refurbished Skating Club of Boston, had a strong skate despite Lu’s fall on a throw triple loop. They ended with 189.65 points and won the bronze medal.
“We’re very happy and excited,” Mitrofanov said. “We’re still trying to process it. We didn’t expect it, we just wanted to put down two solid performances.”
“We need to improve the second half of our free skate,” Lu said. “We need to work on that more, because obviously, we’re getting too tired.”
 
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LL22

New Member
Messages
24
It's weird that Ashley and Tim were judged as they were considering at the last world championships that were held they placed top 10 and got the US two spots back. One would think the USFSA would still remember that.

What happened to them in the SP kind of felt like what happened to Ashley Wagner in 2018, a clear and obvious dropping by the federation. So what happened? Last season didn't exactly go well but its not like the US is currently overloaded with consistent pairs teams to easily replace them. L/M and C/J have potential but neither team was exactly consistent here either and yet the judges clearly propped them up. K/F were amazing but are still not totally tested and it remains to be seen what happens with them. So why judge so harshly a team that once placed top 10 in the world?

maybe its a total overreaction but it feels like that's what happened here
Ashley and Tim have been Ashley Wagnered.... I don’t think they deserve that.
 

mackiecat

Well-Known Member
Messages
1,276
So I asked this in the Bradie fan page but did skate America use all American judges? It kind of looks so by the names. If so is this really an ISU event? Yes I know they’re limiting travel but still.

I do somewhat think an international panel gives Ashley and Timothy and also Bradie their due where if you put it up to an American panel of judges they go for Mariah and ding Ashley and Tim for an under rotation I still can’t see

Also I don’t understand why Ashley and Tim don’t get +5 across-the-board for the side-by-side spin in SP. Ain’t no other couple in the world can do that and it’s going to be a long long time before a guy comes along and can achieve Timothy’s positions. That should be rewarded. It’s Something different versus the same old positions everyone else does all the time. And Ashley and Tim are never not in sync.
I think they were all US judges who are certified at the ISU international level or higher.

as for the plus 5. See the attached. Position is worth +1, then the spin must have 4/5 remaining bullets https://www.isu.org/figure-skating/rules/fsk-communications/24665-isu-communication-2334/file
 

her grace

standing with Mariah
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3,817
Ashley and Tim have been Ashley Wagnered.... I don’t think they deserve that.

What does Ashley Wagnered mean to you?
a) started performing worse so got worse scores
b) stopped receiving unjustified scoring bumps or generous calling
c) stopped receiving unjustified scoring bumps or generous calling while other more favored athletes received unjustified scoring bumps or generous calling
d) finished poorly the year prior and then continued in a slump while others performed better
e) started receiving unfair calls and deliberate scoring deflation
 

AngieNikodinovLove

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Messages
5,460
What does Ashley Wagnered mean to you?
a) started performing worse so got worse scores
b) stopped receiving unjustified scoring bumps or generous calling
c) stopped receiving unjustified scoring bumps or generous calling while other more favored athletes received unjustified scoring bumps or generous calling
d) finished poorly the year prior and then continued in a slump while others performed better
e) started receiving unfair calls and deliberate scoring deflation

I don’t want to get to involved as I just started drinking today but I’ve rewatched that short program jump and I can’t even see so much as an underrotation out of either of them. OK I’m back to my wild turkey now.

I love very much Audrey and Misha but as I’ve said yesteryear until she gets more involved emotionally and can help interpret their programs their PCS should be low

OK nowwwww I’m going back to my wild turkey

If anyone is getting Ashley Wagnered , is that a thing now? It might be Bradie.

Ok nowwwwwwwwwww I’m going back to my wild turkey
 
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Spiralgraph

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2,407
I agree ANL about Audrey and Misha being stoic and unexpressive in their skating. Perhaps they learned that from their Russian coaches, but wherever it comes from it does not draw in their audience. All of our other US pair teams, you can see their excitement and emotions but these two.. I wonder if they even enjoy skating.
 

LL22

New Member
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24
What does Ashley Wagnered mean to you?
a) started performing worse so got worse scores
b) stopped receiving unjustified scoring bumps or generous calling
c) stopped receiving unjustified scoring bumps or generous calling while other more favored athletes received unjustified scoring bumps or generous calling
d) finished poorly the year prior and then continued in a slump while others performed better
e) started receiving unfair calls and deliberate scoring deflation
The passion for Ashley Wagner, good or bad, never dies!
 

Carolla5501

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5,990
So do I have this right. Kayne and O’Shea are coachless?

Maybe USFS should work on that instead of blocking skaters movements to other countries. Speaking of which. Couldn’t Ashley Cain-Gribble find a county for her and Tim?
 
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skylark

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187
So do I have this right. Kayne and O’Shea are coachless?

Maybe USFS should work on that instead of blocking skaters movements to other countries. Speaking of which. Couldn’t Ashley Cain-Gribble find a county for her and Tim?
What does your last question mean? what county? If you meant country, was it a snarky question? (this is a real question on my part, I'm a literal type.)

Apparently Kayne and O'Shea tried out with Brubaker, the Letuk (? not sure of the name) husband/wife coaches who just moved from Texas to the new Boston arena, and Jim Peterson over the past couple of weeks. Jim was with them at the boards at SA, but I don't know if they're officially with him now or not.
 

Carolla5501

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5,990
What does your last question mean? what county? If you meant country, was it a snarky question? (this is a real question on my part, I'm a literal type.)

Apparently Kayne and O'Shea tried out with Brubaker, the Letuk (? not sure of the name) husband/wife coaches who just moved from Texas to the new Boston arena, and Jim Peterson over the past couple of weeks. Jim was with them at the boards at SA, but I don't know if they're officially with him now or not.
Of course it's a snarky question on your part, but I meant country. (As if you couldn't figure that out LOL!)

What does it mean? It means that it's apparent that USFS doesn't want to support them. (This is one of the rare times I agree with Weir, USFS is looking for reasons to mark them down according to him and I agree) USFS is hitching their wagon to more traditional teams so if I were Ashley and Tim I'd be looking at options. As I recall her parents were skaters for another country, is that an option?

As for the NCAA comparison above, actually lately it's basically become possible to transfer within NCAA schools. You just have to come up with some compelling reason "I want to be near grandfather" works (See the Ohio State QB for examples!) So the NCAA has become less restrictive than USFS it seems to me.
 

Amy L

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5,755
Ashley's mother is Canadian and her father is Australian. If she wanted to switch countries she could have done it a decade ago, but since she hasn't why start now. They would never be released by USFSA and even if they :bribe: to make it happen, they'd have to sit out and miss a chance at the `22 Olympics. They are 25 & 30 now so 2026 might not be in the cards for them. When she was still doing singles, she was asked about it and she said she was a very patriotic American and she had no plans to ever switch, so I'll take her at her word.
 

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