U.S. Pairs 2020-21 season - News & Updates, Part XI

[jdonavan]

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[olympic]

I would also say that C/J are probably the US team with the best SS, but those SBS jumps are becoming a problem. I am afraid it's taking root in their headspace

 

[Rukia]

I know I shouldn't feed the troll, but the implication that LeDuck doesn't train is so ridiculous. He posts training videos on and off the ice. Dude is buff af and very strong. Whatever issues they're having has nothing to do with lack of training on either of their parts.

 

[olympic]

I know I shouldn't feed the troll, but the implication that LeDuck doesn't train is so ridiculous. He posts training videos on and off the ice. Dude is buff af and very strong. Whatever issues they're having has nothing to do with lack of training on either of their parts.

In fact, I noticed how fit he was dressed in black in a recent training video. If anything, it has become pretty clear that Ashley has issues with jumps, although JW pointed out that the way Tim throws her on the 3Z 'blocks' her. Comment was made a season or two ago.

I mentioned it in another post a while ago: I get that pairs are different than singles. but Ashley was the gal landing 3Z-3L combos in SPs several years back, and I think she won Nebelhorn Trophy in Ladies once. You can't be a slouch in the jump department and win important international competitions, so what gives that she has issues with a relatively easy solo triple?

 

[her grace]

I mentioned it in another post a while ago: I get that pairs are different than singles. but Ashley was the gal landing 3Z-3L combos in SPs several years back, and I think she won Nebelhorn Trophy in Ladies once. You can't be a slouch in the jump department and win important international competitions, so what gives that she has issues with a relatively easy solo triple?

I don't think Cain ever had a consistent rotated 3z-3r. She was a much stronger edge jumper than toe jumper when she skated singles. I looked up her bio, and she won bronze at Nebelhorn in 2013 and another bronze at Nepala in 2014, but she never won a senior international gold. Her LP protocol from the Nebelhorn bronze is consistent with what I remember of her single skating: a fall on the 3z, two underrotated 3fs, no 3t in the program, and a successfully landed 3r and 3s.

 

[olympic]

I don't think Cain ever had a consistent rotated 3z-3r. She was a much stronger edge jumper than toe jumper when she skated singles. I looked up her bio, and she won bronze at Nebelhorn in 2013 and another bronze at Nepala in 2014, but she never won a senior international gold. Her LP protocol from the Nebelhorn bronze is consistent with what I remember of her single skating: a fall on the 3z, two underrotated 3fs, no 3t in the program, and a successfully landed 3r and 3s.

Thanks for clarifying. I thought she won something and your point is well-taken: She was probably never a consistent jumper

 

[PairSkater12345]

I know I shouldn't feed the troll, but the implication that LeDuck doesn't train is so ridiculous. He posts training videos on and off the ice. Dude is buff af and very strong. Whatever issues they're having has nothing to do with lack of training on either of their parts.

So videos of him in the Gym are proof he is working out hard and correctly? I look at the results of working out and he doesn't cut it on the ice. You calling him LeDuck says enough.......lol

 

[NAOTMAA]

Have K/F establish themselves as the American version of V/T? Two strong individual skaters joining forces to create a super team (as much as one can be in American pairs) It's going to be exciting to see what they can do when they gel and shed the newness

 

[olympic]

I'm glad my faves C/J hung on for second .... Ugh those SBS jumps really need to be fixed pronto. But I thought CG/L were more inspired. BTW, when did their 3 twist and throw 3Z get so big?? Nina Mozer?

Happy that K/F are turning into a super-pair. Brandon mentioned 'trust' in his interview and I think that goes a long way in their ability to land SBS jumps, which was the big bugaboo for D/F and SK/K, and probably kept them from climbing higher internationally.

 

[Spiralgraph]

I'm very happy that Ashley and Tim skated well and moved up to third. I wonder who'll be sent to worlds, if world occurs.
That's a discussion for another time.

 

[RoseRed]

I'm very happy that Ashley and Tim skated well and moved up to third. I wonder who'll be sent to worlds, if world occurs.
That's a discussion for another time.

Surely the top two, if the ISU works something out for the tech minimums. If not, then C/J and CG/L. Jessica and Brian beat Ashley and Tim at Nationals last year and Skate America this year. I can't imagine choosing CG/L over C/J would be done.

 

[olympic]

I'm very happy that Ashley and Tim skated well and moved up to third. I wonder who'll be sent to worlds, if world occurs.
That's a discussion for another time.

Well, both placement at Nationals and BOW would suggest SK/F and C/J.

C/J weren't at their best in the LP here but they won the season opener and kicked ass at 2020 Nationals and 2020 4CCs. I think they have been consistently ahead of CG/L in almost if not every competition since over a year ago.

-----

I have had time to think about the pairs LP and want to state my observations -

SK/F - As already noted, a super-pair was created (stronger partners from previous pairings came together to successfully gel) and their progress is outstanding when you consider that they have been together less than 1 year. Let me put it in these terms - The U.S. now has for the first time a pair that can complete each and every technical element (including SBS jumps) in the ball park of the top international teams. There was always a gap because of the dreaded SBS jumps among other things. IMO, the PCS part will lag a bit until they develop a style, choreography and completely get in synch. Someone commented that their music was generic on another board but WTH, that was a smart move for a new team.

C/J - I'm an Uber and still believe that they are the US team with the best SS, and they are great ... except for YKW. The huge twist, big throws and awesome lifts, unique DS and even their SBS spins have improved since their initial pairing. They may want to follow the Chinese model and revert to a SBS 2A, perhaps in combo. I recall Yu/Zhang or Peng/Jin did that a couple of years ago to good effect: IOW, despite the simpler jump, they stayed near the top because of strengths elsewhere like C/J. Other lower-ranked pairs in the U.S. might not get away with that. However, I think C/J may get away with it because their other elements both individual and pair elements are so strong along with that great SS they will still pull good marks (and avoid deductions). I wish they would have nailed the final lift because their overall program would've looked better despite the jumps.

CG/L - I like the Rach program. The first thing that struck me was the size of the 3twist, Throw 3Z, and the super solid lifts. Those were probably all their worst elements until recently. Wow! Props just for that. He also looks more fit than I've ever seen. I don't think there is a different strategy for them to follow. They just need to get comfortable landing jumps. That is mostly on Ash. What is interesting is Tim is able to throw Ash higher but it hasn't changed her landings for better or worse. I hope she can do it because they are a special team

L/M - Much improved over the past year. I like the daredevil attitude on the technical elements and that is to be praised in US pairs more than anything else. They've maintained / even improved the tech but have managed to work on PCS. It's not quite there yet but it looks like definite progress and I hope they are super-motivated getting so close to the top 3.

C/H - Their progress -> Great. It looks like they are coming together quickly as they should. I like that they are going after 2 sets of SBS triples and I like that they have developed amplitude on the big pair elements. Good base. I wished she would have gone after the Throw 3S but they look like they have a lot of potential. I am sure the next step will be to refine what they are doing now and limit the mistakes, then perhaps move forward. Perhaps they are a 2026 prospect.

S/T - I will temper any negativity by stating that YKW has made this a weird year and has effected everyone differently. But, I don't see much progress from them (but if it's due to YKW I want to reserve judgment). From the beginning, she's needed more oomph in the lifts and their elements are smaller. None of that has changed. Ironically, she is new to pairs and he is the world medalist, but he has more issues landing SBS jumps, so I'm not sure why they go for SBS 3F. It has been more than a year and it has never worked. A positive is that she can land throws and SBS jumps (usually). I think we can look at that as a good base, but how do they skate bigger and faster? That is the key to moving up.

M/B - So, people seem to like them and everyone from fans to commentators talk about how strong Nate is but I don't see it translates to powerful pair elements. However, they skate comparatively bigger than the earlier iterations of Nate + partner: Zhang / Bartholomay, Donlan / Bartholomay, and while Stellato / Bartholomay really stood out on the nationals scene, I do sense this current pairing gels better and could go somewhere. I think his pairing with Stellato was hampered by different desires from each of them and the fact that they went a little too ambitious on the elements. Perhaps because she was 33 and they may have felt the need to 'get things moving quickly.' Besides, this is another 1st year pair during YKW, so I reserve any strong opinions. I think they have potential to move ahead of S/T because they do certain elements better and move across the ices with a little more presence.

P.S. - I miss K/O and P/S. In fact, I miss that bigger muddle of skaters at the top from yesteryear that has been thinned out due to break-ups and other things. I understand Danny left skating but these pairs ranked towards the front of the pack made nationals more interesting. At 2020 Nationals, P/S showed a lot of improvement but now they are gone to chase Swiss visas (or something).

 

[Sylvia]

Katie McBeath has written an Instagram post detailing her and Nate Bartholomay's challenges going back to last year as well as their development as a team ("Through it all we were by each others side and I am so proud of what we have accomplished in six and a half short months of actual elite quality training..."): https://www.instagram.com/p/CKI3cCmLuv2/

Alexa's message of gratitude to Brandon: https://www.instagram.com/p/CKI5BLDg4PJ/

 

[olympic]

Katie McBeath has written an Instagram post detailing her and Nate Bartholomay's challenges going back to last year as well as their development as a team ("Through it all we were by each others side and I am so proud of what we have accomplished in six and a half short months of actual elite quality training..."): https://www.instagram.com/p/CKI3cCmLuv2/

Alexa's message of gratitude to Brandon: https://www.instagram.com/p/CKI5BLDg4PJ/

Thank you @Sylvia that explains a lot. I do think they can go far if they accomplished that so soon

 

[Sylvia]

Pairs FS recap by Lynn Rutherford (scroll down past the FD section): https://www.teamusa.org/News/2021/J...hue-Wrest-US-Ice-Dance-Title-From-Chock-Bates
Excerpts:

“There were several elements, like the death spiral, that got real tight,” Frazier said. “Toward the end, our second lift didn’t have a good (lift) up, so that was a fight there, I wasn’t balanced well. During the choreographed steps, a lot of emotions were going through us at that point. It was a long week and the body gets tired, and we both just really had to reach down deep.”
...
“Every time you win a national championship, it means something different to you,” Alexa Knierim said. “This one is extra special because it isn’t something we expected when we first teamed up. I am kind of speechless. If I can say anything at all, it feels great to win with Brandon. And to be honest, I felt like Chris was out there in my heart every glide of the way, so I just feel fortunate to have two great guys who support me.”

“That performance was not exactly what we have been training for,” Calalang, 25, said. “There were quite a few mistakes in the program, but we really tried to put them aside and keep our performance strong all of the way through.”
“All the hard work we put in this year on the expression, skating skills, stamina, all that stuff, was done really well,” Johnson, also 25, said. “So even though we might not have been the happiest with it, in our minds, we also showed improvement in many ways, and we’re looking forward to adding on to that.”

 

[LL22]

Thank you @Sylvia that explains a lot. I do think they can go far if they accomplished that so soon

So soon? They have been skating together since August of 2019. That’s a year in a half of skating together!!! Their old coach, Jim Peterson, posted videos of Katie and Nate doing death spirals and throws in the fall of last year. They were clearly training elements.
As a basis of comparison, Deanna and Nate teamed up in July of 2016 and a year in a half later were doing a quad and becoming Olympic alternates at a year in a half into their partnership. I agree that the quad was probably not a good idea for them, but nonetheless they placed third even with a fall on it. If we are going to make comparisons, let’s make accurate ones. I don’t think they are a bad pairing, I just don’t like reading something that sounds like one long excuse. Every team has injuries, time off the ice and hardships.

 

[olympic]

So soon? They have been skating together since August of 2019. That’s a year in a half of skating together!!! Their old coach, Jim Peterson, posted videos of Katie and Nate doing death spirals and throws in the fall of last year. They were clearly training elements.
As a basis of comparison, Deanna and Nate teamed up in July of 2016 and a year in a half later were doing a quad and becoming Olympic alternates at a year in a half into their partnership. I agree that the quad was probably not a good idea for them, but nonetheless they placed third even with a fall on it. If we are going to make comparisons, let’s make accurate ones. I don’t think they are a bad pairing, I just don’t like reading something that sounds like one long excuse. Every team has injuries, time off the ice and hardships.

Well, IDK. 'Doing a quad' isn't quite accurate, is it? Did they ever land it cleanly in a competition?

I stated what I did based on the instagram post shared by @Sylvia and despite being together since 2019, it sounds like they had a rough time with surgery, no rink, no coach, YKW, etc.

 

[olympic]

DELETE - DUPLICATE

 

[LL22]

Well, IDK. 'Doing a quad' isn't quite accurate, is it? Did they ever land it cleanly in a competition?

I stated what I did based on the instagram post shared by @Sylvia and despite being together since 2019, it sounds like they had a rough time with surgery, no rink, no coach, YKW, etc.

Whether it was landed or not is irrelevant. They placed third still NOT landing it cleanly, and they did it in the same time as Nate and Katie put out these performances. I said “doing a quad” on purpose because they didn’t land it in competition. Perhaps I should have said “trying” instead. If you want to talk poorly on them for taking a chance on what I can only imagine is a difficult, dangerous and time consuming element- Knock yourself out. There are many Chinese teams that never landed it either.
My point was EVERY team, including C/H that you mentioned you liked so much, have had injuries and were off the ice more time than just from rink closures. Nate had this knee injury when he was skating with Deanna too, he was very forthcoming about it in articles. Every team has hardships!

 

[Sylvia]

So soon? They have been skating together since August of 2019. That’s a year in a half of skating together!!! Their old coach, Jim Peterson, posted videos of Katie and Nate doing death spirals and throws in the fall of last year. They were clearly training elements.

Yes, Peterson posted an Instagram story or two of McBeath/Bartholomay doing some elements in December 2019.

Katie wrote in her Instagram post that "Once January of 2020 came along we found ourselves without a plan, without a coach, and unsure of what was ahead." She elected not to elaborate on their decision for leaving Florida and that's her right. What she wrote didn't sound "like one long excuse" to me -- just a timeline of how they ended up in Irvine, California and what they were able to accomplish since they began training there.

Every team has injuries, time off the ice and hardships.

This certainly is true.

 

[LL22]

Yes, Peterson posted an Instagram story or two of McBeath/Bartholomay doing some elements in December 2019.

Katie wrote in her Instagram post that "Once January of 2020 came along we found ourselves without a plan, without a coach, and unsure of what was ahead." She elected not to elaborate on their decision for leaving Florida and that's her right. What she wrote didn't sound "like one long excuse" to me -- just a timeline of how they ended up in Irvine, California and what they were able to accomplish since they began training there.

This certainly is true.

She also mentioned in an interview that I saw on Instagram that “this was her and Nates first event”. I understand not wanting to count their ISP event as that is not in person, but it is still a competition. In addition, it was their choice not to compete at sectionals as C/H did. So after seeing this quote she gave and reading this post, it all sounded like one big excuse to me. As oppose to Mariah Bell just writing an inspirational quote and calling it a day.

 

[olympic]

Whether it was landed or not is irrelevant. They placed third still NOT landing it cleanly, and they did it in the same time as Nate and Katie put out these performances. I said “doing a quad” on purpose because they didn’t land it in competition. Perhaps I should have said “trying” instead. If you want to talk poorly on them for taking a chance on what I can only imagine is a difficult, dangerous and time consuming element- Knock yourself out. There are many Chinese teams that never landed it either.
My point was EVERY team, including C/H that you mentioned you liked so much, have had injuries and were off the ice more time than just from rink closures. Nate had this knee injury when he was skating with Deanna too, he was very forthcoming about it in articles. Every team has hardships!

Way too intense, my friend. Namaste

 

[Sylvia]

USFS has announced the Pairs for 2021 Worlds:

Jessica Calalang/Brian Johnson (S2)
Alexa Knierim/Brandon Frazier* (S1)

Alternate 1 – Ashley Cain-Gribble/Timothy LeDuc (S3)
Alternate 2 – Audrey Lu/Misha Mitrofanov (S4)
Alternate 3 – Emily Chan/Spencer Howe* (S5)

*pending ISU decision on minimum score

 

[LL22]

Way too intense, my friend. Namaste

This response is more disappointing than an unsalted pretzel... don’t start a debate if it’s “too intense for you”.

 

[olympic]

This response is more disappointing than an unsalted pretzel... don’t start a debate if it’s “too intense for you”.

I didn't start a debate with you. In fact, you are the one who seems to have an issue with an analysis of a skater and his partners. It is so miniscule. I'm shocked you are blowing it up the way you are. No matter. On ignore you go.

 

[Sylvia]

For @olympic - Jessica’s message: https://www.instagram.com/p/CKKiWKcLGj1/

 

[Carolla5501]

She also mentioned in an interview that I saw on Instagram that “this was her and Nates first event”. I understand not wanting to count their ISP event as that is not in person, but it is still a competition. In addition, it was their choice not to compete at sectionals as C/H did. So after seeing this quote she gave and reading this post, it all sounded like one big excuse to me. As oppose to Mariah Bell just writing an inspirational quote and calling it a day.

Boy you don’t like her do you



Too bad you didn’t take a lesson from Mariah whom you seem to like so much.

 

[haribobo]

Skaters who qualified through ISP were not allowed to "compete" at that Sectionals comp, so McNate couldn't do any more comps.

 

[olympic]

For @olympic - Jessica’s message: https://www.instagram.com/p/CKKiWKcLGj1/

Thanks. After the SP, Jessica mentioned that she was retooling her technique on the 3S. Is Raf's team helping out on that?

 

[Sylvia]

After the SP, Jessica mentioned that she was retooling her technique on the 3S. Is Raf's team helping out on that?

Yes (from the article I posted on the previous page): https://olympics.nbcsports.com/2021/01/15/us-pairs-figure-skating-meno-sand-knierim-frazier/