U.S. Pairs 2017 - News & Updates, Part VII

[skatfan]

S/B landed triples in both programs. Are you watching? Kerr doesn't even teach on the same coast as Zimmerman's team anymore.

They stumbled on their jumps - rotated but messy in the LP. Haven’t seen the SPs. And please just stop with your condecending tone. Very unattractive.

PS: what pair team has this coaching staff produced from scratch? It's very easy to take a team that has been around for the better part of a decade and "take them to the next level". Try building a team from the beginning like the other American coaches are doing and then the struggle is real.

Plenty of coaches have built their rep on finishing. Mosvina was brilliant at it. Not everyone can take a team all the way. Current results suggest something needs to change.

Re: music: All US teams used contemporary music in at least one of their programs. Can WE ALL STOP PILING ON????????

(Whispers: can we all stop shouting?)

I also said (which you conveniently left out) tinkly piano music. I did forget about S/B skating to U2.

 

[kwanfan1818]

A clean jump is a fully rotated jump. GOE does not determine it, judges do not to determine it, the technical panel is the only voice that determines clean!!!

Extra exclamation points does not make your opinion any more or less true.

In fact, there is no ISU definition of "clean." The only references to the word in the Constitution, Regs, Special Regs, and Communications where mandatory deductions and maximum GOE for element errors are listed in detail are to define a L4 Style B step sequence and with regards to drugs, and the word "cleanness" is used to describe Skating Skills.

Individual federations who require minimum technical difficulty before they will send an athlete or team to an international event or to allow them to qualify for national competitions can define it as they wish, but that has nothing to do with the ISU.

 

[jdonavan]

They stumbled on their jumps - rotated but messy in the LP. Haven’t seen the SPs. And please just stop with your condecending tone. Very unattractive.



Plenty of coaches have built their rep on finishing. Mosvina was brilliant at it. Not everyone can take a team all the way. Current results suggest something needs to change.



(Whispers: can we all stop shouting?)

I also said (which you conveniently left out) tinkly piano music. I did forget about S/B skating to U2.[/QUOTE

No stumble. Nate was forward on the landing.

 

[RoseRed]

S/B landed triples in both programs. Are you watching? Kerr doesn't even teach on the same side of Florida as Zimmerman's team anymore.
PS: what pair team has this coaching staff produced from scratch? It's very easy to take a team that has been around for the better part of a decade and "take them to the next level". Try building a team from the beginning like the other American coaches are doing and then the struggle is real.
Re: music: All US teams used contemporary music in at least one of their programs. Can WE ALL STOP PILING ON????????

Kerr still works with some of Zimmerman's pairs, so I don't get your point. D/R work with Zimmerman part time now, and Kerr worked on their SP. Kerr also did J/C's programs with Silvia Fontana.

 

[Cleo1782]

Hostile much?
"Clean" to me means a fully rotated jump with 0 or +GOE. A jump that bad errors in the landing isn't clean.

I think it's in the verbiage. To me, I would consider what Nate and Deanna did to be a clean jump with minor execution and synchronicity errors, while Alexa and Chris performed a "clean" 2toe-2toe sequence with positive Goe, but that's a major error that I would consider popping. I would also consider Aliona's sbs 3sal clean even though she screwed up the combo by popping by the toes the actual sal was clean. To me, it's a fully rotated jump on one foot without a fall as well, but you certainly aren't the only poster on the board who thinks positive Goe makes it clean. I think we are honestly are talking about two different things: one if it's fully rotated (what I would call clean as opposed to cheated) and overall cleanliness/aesthetics of the jump (ie positive GOE). More often than not when a skater or coach is referring to a clean jump it means fully rotated, not a jump with only positive GOE, honestly.

 

[kwanfan1818]

A fully rotated jump is a fully rotated jump. A jump off the correct edge is a jump off the correct edge. A fully rotated jump off the correct edge that results in a fall, for example, is not a clean jump.

 

[Cleo1782]

A fully rotated jump is a fully rotated jump. A jump off the correct edge is a jump off the correct edge. A fully rotated jump off the correct edge that results in a fall, for example, is not a clean jump.

Agreed that's why I said a fully rotated jump on one foot without a fall is clean. A jump with a fall would be fully rotated, but not clean. When a skater refers to a 'clean' program it's a program without falls or major mistakes. Like if Deanna and Nate, for example, landed their sals and she was on one foot on the second throw, I would have considered that a clean program too. I understand what the original poster was trying to say that's all. Obviously you have your own ideas. That's fine.

 

[kwanfan1818]

And the original poster denied that the major mistakes defined by the ISU as requiring deductions in some cases and - GOE in other cases do not stop a jump from being clean. Also a flawless jump does not mean a flawless jump element: a repeated jump not in combo, a solo jump in the SP not preceded by steps, a double jump in the SP where a triple is required, or a flawless jump in combination where the second and/or third jump have errors etc. could be a clean jump and a greatly flawed element, as defined by mandatory deductions.

What the ISU has done is taken the defined mistakes and flaws that were originally supposed to be managed by the judges, including under-rotations and edge calls, and delegated those two mistakes to the technical panel. It doesn't make the flaws managed by the judges not mistakes. It just makes them less consistently applied and subject to mitigation by adding back GOE, like when a skater uses the Tano arms.

The point is that US Pairs lose boatloads of points by making major mistakes on their jumps, by at least one partner performing flawed jumps, and by not having enough mitigations to offset the deductions/reductions in GOE, mandatory or not. It doesn't matter whether the deductions/reductions are called by the technical panel or the judges.

 

[wickedwitch]

My thoughts on pairs and the team event post-SA with the ice is slippery so anything could happen as a caveat....
The US team, whoever it is, won't beat the Chinese, Canadian, German, Russian, or French team. They won't lose to the Japanese or Korean team. That leaves just the Italians and Israelis. So at most a two point difference in the SP and one point in the LP. And frankly, I think it would be pretty unlikely for them to beat the Italians. So it really doesn't matter who they send.

Despite that, I think a top two finish from S-K/K at Nats gets them to the Olympics, possibly even top 3 if the scores are close.

 

[nimi]

Just chiming in to say that I don’t get the constant failure at SBS jumps by SK/K.

The icenetwork SkAm article mentions that Chris has been dealing with a knee injury.

In the mixed zone, Chris revealed he has been struggling with a left patella (knee) injury that has limited his ability to train jumps since shortly before the 2017 World Figure Skating Championships.

"I need to train the jumps hard and do a lot of reps, and I wasn't able to," he said. "Obviously, it's not what we wanted here or in Japan (at NHK Trophy), but it's hard to be really upset about it, due to the circumstances going in. I am getting over the injury, which is great, and now I feel I can actually train jumps and programs strong going into nationals."

 

[chachacha]

The icenetwork SkAm article mentions that Chris has been dealing with a knee injury.

Interesting that they just now are disclosing this and it's been since Worlds as per the article. If they could not train the jumps and were not at 100% why would they not have Chris focus on healing the injury so that they are in tip top shape for the Olympics and Worlds, makes no sense as I believe Tarah Kayne had a knee injury all last season and it all came to a head at Nationals causing them to have to withdraw and miss the Grand Prix Series. I am on the Alexa and Chris wagon, no matter what, but clearly if he can't train his jumps they should be focused on the Olympics and Worlds and being healthy, they know they will be the team going anyways so competing at the Grand Prixs where they are not challenging for medals is not the smartest thing to do. Seems like because they have not been able to hit the jumps in competition they are now going to use the excuse Chris is injured, but the reality is they have always had jump issues previously before Alexa's illness and now Chris's injury. But hopefully they will be fully recovered for Nationals as no matter what place they come in they will be the team going. But at this point, it really does not matter who they send to the Olympics since really no US Team will be contributing to the Team Event or the individual event as Unfortunately that is the reality of US Pairs at this point in time.

 

[Cleo1782]

Interesting that they just now are disclosing this and it's been since Worlds as per the article. If they could not train the jumps and were not at 100% why would they not have Chris focus on healing the injury so that they are in tip top shape for the Olympics and Worlds, makes no sense as I believe Tarah Kayne had a knee injury all last season and it all came to a head at Nationals causing them to have to withdraw and miss the Grand Prix Series. I am on the Alexa and Chris wagon, no matter what, but clearly if he can't train his jumps they should be focused on the Olympics and Worlds and being healthy, they know they will be the team going anyways so competing at the Grand Prixs where they are not challenging for medals is not the smartest thing to do. Seems like because they have not been able to hit the jumps in competition they are now going to use the excuse Chris is injured, but the reality is they have always had jump issues previously before Alexa's illness and now Chris's injury. But hopefully they will be fully recovered for Nationals as no matter what place they come in they will be the team going. But at this point, it really does not matter who they send to the Olympics since really no US Team will be contributing to the Team Event or the individual event as Unfortunately that is the reality of US Pairs at this point in time.

I agree about it not really mattering who we send. It's all for the team event. My problem is why should we send Alexa and Chris when we pretty much know, unless Chris miraculously recovers from an injury he has had for months in the next few weeks, that they aren't going to execute the jumps? I think most of the momentum S/K had from Worlds is gone, but obviously no one has stepped up to the plate in US pairs. My question is if K/O (who really are my only hope this year) look good at GS and Nationals and beat Alexa and Chris there, should we send them instead?

 

[nimi]

Interesting that they just now are disclosing this and it's been since Worlds as per the article. If they could not train the jumps and were not at 100% why would they not have Chris focus on healing the injury so that they are in tip top shape for the Olympics and Worlds (...) I am on the Alexa and Chris wagon, no matter what, but clearly if he can't train his jumps they should be focused on the Olympics and Worlds and being healthy, they know they will be the team going anyways so competing at the Grand Prixs where they are not challenging for medals is not the smartest thing to do.

Huh? The "body of work" criteria applies to pairs, too. And there's only one Oly spot. Why would Alexa & Chris choose sit home the GP season just because Chris has been facing some extra difficulty re: sbs jumps? Especially when it appears that they've been able to train their other elements just fine?

After all, even with the not-so-fabulous GP season they've had, they've managed to re-establish themselves as the clear no 1 team among US pairs, plus they've gotten valuable competition experience after sitting out most of the last season.

Also... In the same article, Alexa & Chris said they're planning to re-introduce the 4Tw for Nats. They'd probably be less willing to take that risk and test that element at Nats before heading to Korea if they were feeling extra pressure to skate clean at Nats to win & to get that Oly spot. I mean, sitting out the whole GP season would've inevitably caused a lot of speculation about whether they're really ready to compete at Olys (and I'm sure there would have been a LOT of posts here bashing Chris & Alexa for that decision and for failing to gain momentum and for being cowards and hiding behind an "excuse" and letting the US pairs discipline as a whole down and wah wah wah and why doesn't he just suck it up and skate through the pain etc. etc.)

 

[Spiralgraph]

Once upon a time K/O were consistent on their sbs jumps but with the injuries Tarah has suffered I'm afraid her jumps may be fragile like Haven Denney's. I'm at the point that whoever skates the best at Nationals, they go to the Olympics.

 

[VGThuy]

I think SBS jumps are one deficiency SK/K have, but one that is shared with almost the entire U.S. pairs field. Their non-SBS jump elements simply are of a higher quality than everyone else's at the moment. I think C/T were the only pair that had quality elements that could compete with them but alas they can't go to the Olympics and even in U.S. pairs standards, C/T are unreliable.

 

[LilJen]

A fact that both depresses me and gives me hope: the US pairs on the JGP landed several more sbs triples than the seniors did despite not being allowed to attempt triples in the SP.

Slight correction: Jrs *are* allowed to do SBS triples in the SP. It's just that each year the ISU dictates a *specific* SBS jump. So, if it's lutzes, flips, or loops, lots of junior pair skaters don't have those triples (nor do seniors either, to be fair), so they do doubles instead. (Looks like lutzes are required this year, so. . . . doubles it is!)

 

[AngieNikodinovLove (ANL)]

I almost feel that if Chris Knierim is incapable of doing a triple to just go with planned doubles on all passes so it doesn't look like a hot mess, and then they would produce programs with no errors. Just less base values for their jumps. Everything else looks great. Its too much of a distraction now with Chris's aborted jumps. I say plan doubles, execute doubles and go error free.

 

[acraven]

Slight correction: Jrs *are* allowed to do SBS triples in the SP. It's just that each year the ISU dictates a *specific* SBS jump. So, if it's lutzes, flips, or loops, lots of junior pair skaters don't have those triples (nor do seniors either, to be fair), so they do doubles instead. (Looks like lutzes are required this year, so. . . . doubles it is!)

I had forgotten that the solo jump is specified in the junior pairs SP, as it is in the singles SPs. But this season it's not just a Lutz, it is specifically a double Lutz. I've linked to the USFS Pairs Short Program summary document. I guess that's probably nothing more than a reflection of reality.

 

[Carolla5501]

Interesting that they just now are disclosing this and it's been since Worlds as per the article. If they could not train the jumps and were not at 100% why would they not have Chris focus on healing the injury so that they are in tip top shape for the Olympics and Worlds, makes no sense as I believe Tarah Kayne had a knee injury all last season and it all came to a head at Nationals causing them to have to withdraw and miss the Grand Prix Series. I am on the Alexa and Chris wagon, no matter what, but clearly if he can't train his jumps they should be focused on the Olympics and Worlds and being healthy, they know they will be the team going anyways so competing at the Grand Prixs where they are not challenging for medals is not the smartest thing to do. Seems like because they have not been able to hit the jumps in competition they are now going to use the excuse Chris is injured, but the reality is they have always had jump issues previously before Alexa's illness and now Chris's injury. But hopefully they will be fully recovered for Nationals as no matter what place they come in they will be the team going. But at this point, it really does not matter who they send to the Olympics since really no US Team will be contributing to the Team Event or the individual event as Unfortunately that is the reality of US Pairs at this point in time.

My concern is they will get a "medical buy" again. Realistically while they got us "one spot" they have not done anything to deserve a buy since then and even that's not exactly an outstanding achievement!

And I agree that his knee isn't the issue, one of the other of them always seems to fail to deliver. (When was the last time they both landed their jumps?) Maybe facing reality and just doing doubles is the way to go!

 

[skatfan]

And I agree that his knee isn't the issue, one of the other of them always seems to fail to deliver. (When was the last time they both landed their jumps?) Maybe facing reality and just doing doubles is the way to go!

I think she is worried about him in those jumps (added factor that they are married), which has messed with her head. It’s been obvious for a while that he couldn’t do the triple.

There’s really no one else to send. Based on body of work they are ahead of everyone else.

 

[oleada]

Slight correction: Jrs *are* allowed to do SBS triples in the SP. It's just that each year the ISU dictates a *specific* SBS jump. So, if it's lutzes, flips, or loops, lots of junior pair skaters don't have those triples (nor do seniors either, to be fair), so they do doubles instead. (Looks like lutzes are required this year, so. . . . doubles it is!)

Actually, the ISU guide specifically states that the required solo jump for junior pairs this season is a 2Lz. The single skaters can do a double or triple lutz but it's specifically a double lutz for junior pairs. They can do a double or triple throw loop and a double or triple twist. It's in the ISU media guide for the season but I'm on my phone so links are hard.

Some years they are given a 2A as an option, too.

 

[jmtfti]

Didn't see this posted already, but this from Icenetwork offered some insight into Denney and Frazier's efforts to improve their levels and execution.

 

[chachacha]

Didn't see this posted already, but this from Icenetwork offered some insight into Denney and Frazier's efforts to improve their levels and execution.

I know it must be difficult for Denney and Frazier to have to work back up to their form after so long after Denney's injury. I watched them skate via the Olympic Channel and was surprised to hear it was not just an ACL tear but a full blown ACL, Meniscus, and more so it's surprising that they actually are still skating together and she is even able to do what she is doing now, but it's a long road to recover for a major knee reconstruction. Hopefully Denney will just keep improving since they are only 21 & 25 and could stay in it for another quad if they stay healthy and mentally can handle the extra work they will clearly have to put in just to get those jumps to wear they need to be. Hopefully Tarah's knee injury was not as serious as Denney's since clearly it's taking Denney awhile to get back to 100%. Hopefully Tarah and Danny will be showing their consistency they had before Tarah's injury and that her knee surgery was not as severe as Denney's or we may be seeing the same type of results with Tarah. But overall, I do hope Tarah & Danny and Denney & Frazier keep going through the next quad. Wishing all the US Teams to be Healthy and Improve

 

[her grace]

I wonder what USFS would do if S/K have a McLaughlin/Brubaker-style Olympic nationals and finish off the podium. Not that any of the other teams have been stellar and Kayne/O'Shea have been out--but is there a placement so low that even S/K would not be chosen?

 

[Cleo1782]

I wonder what USFS would do if S/K have a McLaughlin/Brubaker-style Olympic nationals and finish off the podium. Not that any of the other teams have been stellar and Kayne/O'Shea have been out--but is there a placement so low that even S/K would not be chosen?

That's an interesting question.......Denney and Barrett were coming off a strong Nationals in 2009 (where they should of beat M/B) and M/B had a good GP season, but failed to make the final and both D/B and E/L had okay if not great GP season. D/B especially were extremely consistent and M/B were making mistakes all the time. I remember thinking D/B would nab that second spot and possibly win Nationals going into 2010. I didn't expect M/B to be as awful as they were but E/L, a returning Inoue and Baldwin and even Castile and Okoloski skated very well, so I thought it was very fair, as M/B were not going to vie for a medal and probably only finish at best a couple of spots above E/L.

This year it changes because of one spot and the team event. I honestly don't think Alexa and Chris should go if they can't win Nationals. I think it would be criminal if they went if they were lower than second. It's not like a bad skate at Nationals would be a one off in a great season thus far. It would basically just being the culmination of a poor season and if they can't beat a subpar American field they have no business being at the games. JMO.

 

[pairskatingfan]

Slight correction: Jrs *are* allowed to do SBS triples in the SP. It's just that each year the ISU dictates a *specific* SBS jump. So, if it's lutzes, flips, or loops, lots of junior pair skaters don't have those triples (nor do seniors either, to be fair), so they do doubles instead. (Looks like lutzes are required this year, so. . . . doubles it is!)

This is false. Junior pairs are not allowed to do triples in the short program. The years alternate like this: double loop or double axel, double flip or double axel, and double lutz. On the year of required double lutz, they are not allowed to do a double axel. No triple jumps are allowed in junior short programs ever.

 

[Cleo1782]

This is false. Junior pairs are not allowed to do triples in the short program. The years alternate like this: double loop or double axel, double flip or double axel, and double lutz. On the year of required double lutz, they are not allowed to do a double axel. No triple jumps are allowed in junior short programs ever.

True under the IJS system junior pairs have never been allowed to anything more than a double axel in the short.

 

[DFO]

True under the IJS system junior pairs have never been allowed to anything more than a double axel in the short.

I Wonder why? Maybe to give some nations, where the best skaters barely do doubles, a chance to get a medal. Like USA... . It's a... canadian joke...

 

[VGThuy]

It's kind of like how junior Men aren't allowed to do quads in the SP.

 

[Cleo1782]

I Wonder why? Maybe to give some nations, where the best skaters barely do doubles, a chance to get a medal. Like USA... . It's a... canadian joke...

Lol! So many pairs from other nations do triple filp lutz or loop in juniors....