U.S. Men 2022-23 news & updates

[Trillian]

The field is so unclear at Nationals right now that the people who end up on the World team this year (aside from Malinin, most likely) may not even be in the conversation next year. If you think Jason is potentially taking away a spot from someone, who exactly would it be that is guaranteed to be building up to 2026?

Exactly. Like I said, I’m a fan of all these guys, but I wouldn’t put down money on anyone in particular to be in the mix for 2026. A lot of them have the potential, but aside from Malinin, there’s no reasonable way to place a bet now on who else “needs” the experience among this year’s senior men.

Other skaters can “commit” to competing through 2026 all they want, but that doesn’t mean they’ll all follow through or be particularly competitive. Jason may not skate perfectly all the time, but he has a track record of showing up well-prepared and taking his competitions seriously. There’s nothing in his history to suggest he’d take a Worlds spot for vanity reasons. Whatever happens at nationals, the best team for Worlds will be the three skaters who are most prepared to skate well at that moment, not whoever wins the 2026 Olympic gold medal in the fanfics people are writing.

 

[pachelbel]

I just said I feel safer when Jason is on the team. I didn’t say Jason will make the team or would accept.

You: "I like apples"

Them: "Well, what's wrong with oranges?!?!?!?!!!!??"



So happy Jason will be back! Was debating whether to make the 30 minute trip down the road to San Jose for Nationals but this definitely seals the deal. Definitely seems like there are so many open battles for the taking this time around! Especially with 3 spots available in every discipline (though I'm not too excited about pairs just yet). Very, very interesting to see live for sure.

 

[SkateFanBerlin]

Isn't this a bit presumptuous? I mean, sure, the only confirmed skater for Nationals that has demonstrated the ability to score as high as Jason internationally is Ilia, but it's not as though clean programs from Max Naumov or Camden wouldn't score equally well.

Hoping this will motivate Camden and others. We need someone beside Ilia. (Love Jason)

 

[PRlady]

Someone like Camden whose strength is skating skills and presentation is particularly vulnerable to Mr PCS Brown. Jason is simply the highest second-mark skater there is and deservedly so. Without going clean and landing a couple of quads, Camden is not going to beat a clean Jason.

I’m all for giving younger skaters opportunities but most of them have already blown some. I’m fine with Ilya, Jason and the best of the rest on the team.

 

[thvu]

A clean Jason Brown with no quad wins silver at Nationals given the current field. One or two quads is not going to give the other men enough points to overtake Brown’s GOE and PCS advantage.

 

[Hedwig]

It is not ageist to argue that someone has more future potential, higher firepower, and would inherently be less prone to injury and more likely to continue for four more years and therefore needs to rack up competition experience among the big leagues. These are all reasonable attributes linked to someone's competitive success.

We will have to agree to disagree then. Because IMO opinion all you are saying is that you do not want to take an older skater (whoever that may be, Jason, Zoe Jones or whoever) because of their age. And that is age discrimination for me.

If someone is not considered for a job because he is already 55 years old just because of his age - that is age discrimination as well. Does not mean that there are no reasons one can cite just like with women in child bearing age. It is still discrimination because of one thing like age, gender, race whatever.

You can still argue that you do not want someone over 25 on the team - but then at least own up to it that it is ageist.

 

[On My Own]

Ageism - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

The concept of ageism was originally developed to refer to prejudice and discrimination against older people and middle-aged people, but has expanded to include children and teenagers. Midlife workers, on average, make more than younger workers do, which reflects educational achievement and experience. The age-wage peak in the United States, according to Census data, is between 45 and 54 years of age. Seniority in general accords with respect as people age, lessening ageism.

I don't know how true it is. However, of course we'll have to agree to disagree - on the selection, not whether or not discrimination was in play. Discrimination might apply if all else were equal. However, all else is not equal. Brown has the seniority and reputation that only comes into play with time, as well as the judge influenced PCS/GOE cushion that comes with it. The younger skaters' own talents, health, potential longevity, and youth are their own desirable attributes in this case, leveling the playing field somewhat.

 

[Vagabond]

Was debating whether to make the 30 minute trip down the road to San Jose

Do you know the way? (Asking for a friend.)

 

[Trillian]

Ageism - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

I don't know how true it is. However, of course we'll have to agree to disagree - on the selection, not whether or not discrimination was in play. Discrimination might apply if all else were equal. However, all else is not equal. Brown has the seniority and reputation that only comes into play with time, as well as the judge influenced PCS/GOE cushion that comes with it. The younger skaters' own talents, health, potential longevity, and youth are their own desirable attributes in this case, leveling the playing field somewhat.

So just to be clear, what is the age cutoff at which point skaters should no longer be given a world or Olympic team spot even if they beat the younger skaters at nationals? If we make it 25 and/or require a long-term commitment to continue competing, what are we going to do with Nathan Chen if he decides to come back for a season at age 26? “Sorry, Nathan, we need to invest in skaters with future potential instead.” Are we also excluding Jimmy Ma from consideration for the world team this year since he’s about the same age as Jason and hasn’t publicly committed to pursuing a 2026 Olympic spot? I just think we should probably put some clear criteria in writing so skaters don’t waste time and money trying to compete at nationals when they’re already past their expiration dates.

Or alternatively, we could wait and see what these guys do at nationals and select a world team based on demonstrated performance ability at that time rather than making wild guesses about what they may or may not be capable of or interested in doing three years from now.

 

[Karen-W]

So just to be clear, what is the age cutoff at which point skaters should no longer be given a world or Olympic team spot even if they beat the younger skaters at nationals? If we make it 25 and/or require a long-term commitment to continue competing, what are we going to do with Nathan Chen if he decides to come back for a season at age 26? “Sorry, Nathan, we need to invest in skaters with future potential instead.” Are we also excluding Jimmy Ma from consideration for the world team this year since he’s about the same age as Jason and hasn’t publicly committed to pursuing a 2026 Olympic spot? I just think we should probably put some clear criteria in writing so skaters don’t waste time and money trying to compete at nationals when they’re already past their expiration dates.

Or alternatively, we could wait and see what these guys do at nationals and select a world team based on demonstrated performance ability at that time rather than making wild guesses about what they may or may not be capable of or interested in doing three years from now.

You know, my response about prioritizing men who are committed to competing through the entire quad for the Worlds team over a skater who might only be in it for this season was in response to your suggestion that Jason might only be aiming to compete at a Japan Worlds in order to increase his name recognition (which is already high) and professional opportunities in Japan. I realize that your comment was only hypothetical and you have no personal knowledge of Jason's motivations, and I don't want to start a flame war with people saying that I'm making unfair assumptions about that, but...

My reaction to this hypothetical is "that's pretty selfish" and if it's okay for one person (Brown in this scenario) to take it one season at a time and maximize professional opportunities, then isn't it just as valuable, perhaps even more valuable, to a Jimmy Ma to be able to put on his resume that he was a Worlds competitor? Look how far being a Worlds competitor has taken Mark Hanretty, for example. Look what it did for Yao Bin. We talk all the time, especially over in the US Women's thread, about skaters for whom just making it to Nationals is the highlight of their career, and we know that, for some skaters competing internationally, it's an achievement just to make it to Worlds once or twice (Dasa Grm, anyone?).

I don't know what the answer is, but maybe the USFS should prioritize, at least at the start of the new Olympic quad, getting skaters who are committed to competing every year (barring injury, of course) until the next Olympics, the major ISU Championship assignments. Age is irrelevant, in my opinion. And, yes, I would apply the same standard to Nathan.

Now, this isn't to say that priorities should be static. Come 2025 when the USFS is looking to earn the maximum number of spots for the Olympic season, then I say we absolutely send the very best athletes we have, "getting experience" be damned. If Nathan, Jason and Ilia are the team that are going to guarantee three spots and they finish top 3 at Nationals, then, by all means, send them to Boston.

 

[Trillian]

You know, my response about prioritizing men who are committed to competing through the entire quad for the Worlds team over a skater who might only be in it for this season was in response to your suggestion that Jason might only be aiming to compete at a Japan Worlds in order to increase his name recognition (which is already high) and professional opportunities in Japan.

That’s not what I said. I just pointed out that if he’s offered a world team spot and he’s on the fence about whether he wants to keep training at that level, the fact that the event is in Japan is probably a point in the “pro” column for a variety of reasons. You’re correct that I don’t know him or his motivations, but he’s never given us any reason to think that he would be driven primarily by self-interest.

One way or another, if Jason goes to worlds, it’s because he wants to represent the U.S. as well as he can at worlds. That’s the exact same goal all the other guys have. Nobody’s arguing here that anyone should be offered a spot unless they earn it - just that skaters who have demonstrated the strongest ability to perform at that level shouldn’t be left off the team in favor of lower-performing skaters. Regardless of who goes, world team selection should be based on actual performance, not guesses or hypotheticals.

 

[Carolla5501]

So Jason should stay home because your favorite can’t beat him ? That’s what people are saying “my favorite isn’t good enough to win if other people are there so I want the other people to stay home.” That’s a vote of confidence in your favorite skater isn’t it?


If your favorite wants to go to worlds they know what they have to do. And technically we all know that Jason can be beat

It’s the same argument we had for a long time with Michelle “ Michelle should retire so someone else could have a chance. They are not good enough to beat her but should still like to be national champions because it’s a participation award society”

 

[Jarrett]

Jason skating well at nationals/world's helps USA keep three spots. The us men haven't shown anything special technically (they actually have been a bit of a mess) this season besides Ilia. If this continues at nationals I don't see why anyone would be thinking to send them to world's for experience. Experience of placing 16-20th so they have even less of a chance making it the next year with less spots?

 

[jlai]

Hmm historically having someone with good world team experience really help.
Remember Max Aaron who helped save a spot in 2018. Or Japan, despite the strong team, lost a spot in ladies in like 2017? Even team Russia had some almost vulnerable moments when they sent their young inexperienced ladies
Ilia is great but this will be his first full senior season and it is a bit much to expect him to be the rock on the team.it would help if another world team member isn’t green green.

 

[Jayar]

If I am selecting a team, I want someone who is lighting up the world on fire (Malinin), a reliable performer (Brown), and a newcomer (yes, I know Malinin is a 'newcomer' but he fits in my first bucket).

 

[Carolla5501]

If I’m selecting a team I just take the top three.

 

[barbk]

Do you know the way? (Asking for a friend.)

Looking for some peace of mind?

 

[tylersf]

If I’m selecting a team I just take the top three.

That is how it used to be in the US - at the 1992 US Figure Skating Championships, they held a spot for the injured Todd Eldredge. The results were as seen below. However, some people wanted to leave off Paul Wylie in favor of Mark Mitchell. Paul Wylie was sent and won a Silver Medal and was the highest US finisher at the 1992 Winter Olympics.

Rank	Name	SP	FS
1​	Christopher Bowman	1	1
2​	Paul Wylie	4	2
3​	Mark Mitchell	2	3

But in 2014, they started using the "Body of Work" guideline and sent Ashley Wagner over Mirai Nagasu to the 2014 Olympics

Rank	Name	Total points	SP	FS
1​	Gracie Gold	211.69​	1​	72.12​	1​	139.57​
2​	Polina Edmunds	193.63​	2​	66.75​	2​	126.88​
3​	Mirai Nagasu	190.74​	3​	65.44​	3​	125.30​
4​	Ashley Wagner	182.74​	4​	64.71​	5​	118.03​

I wonder who they will send in 2026. We shall see.

 

[Vagabond]

Looking for some peace of mind?

I've got a lot of friends in San Jose.

 

[mtnskater]

And Ashley won a world silver medal in 2016. One of the few world medals won by a U.S. woman in the last decade. Also Alysa Liu was sent to the 2022 Olympics based on her body of work and won a world bronze medal in the month after the Olympics.

 

[sheetz]

Experience of placing 16-20th so they have even less of a chance making it the next year with less spots?

Absolutely. Being handed something on a silver platter has rarely done anyone any good. I think the best thing would be for US men to lose the 3 spots and be forced to win them back.

 

[SkateFanBerlin]

We will have to agree to disagree then. Because IMO opinion all you are saying is that you do not want to take an older skater (whoever that may be, Jason, Zoe Jones or whoever) because of their age. And that is age discrimination for me.

If someone is not considered for a job because he is already 55 years old just because of his age - that is age discrimination as well. Does not mean that there are no reasons one can cite just like with women in child bearing age. It is still discrimination because of one thing like age, gender, race whatever.

You can still argue that you do not want someone over 25 on the team - but then at least own up to it that it is ageist.

Reminds me of the controversy over late-career Kwan. It was said the ISU asked the USFS to stop sending Kwan. They had been viewing her skating for 10 years and hoped for something new. I took that to mean someone with a higher technical level - 2005 was still the 3-2 era. I love Jason and if his PCS-rich score beats the others, so be it. Still, the US aside from Ilyia, seems stagnant.

 

[LeafOnTheWind]

I would just like to point out the hypocrisy here. A lot of you were perfectly happy for Jason to make the Olympic team over someone who beat him at Nationals. Now it's a horrible idea that Jason beats someone and doesn't get sent to Worlds. By the way, USFS clearly isn't using top 3 at Nationals anymore and hasn't for awhile so it doesn't really matter now does it?

 

[Trillian]

I would just like to point out the hypocrisy here. A lot of you were perfectly happy for Jason to make the Olympic team over someone who beat him at Nationals. Now it's a horrible idea that Jason beats someone and doesn't get sent to Worlds. By the way, USFS clearly isn't using top 3 at Nationals anymore and hasn't for awhile so it doesn't really matter now does it?

We’re not going to rehash that selection in this thread, but I would point out that most of us haven’t said the team should be selected based only on nationals results. I’m a big fan of considering all recent competitions. If we had three guys who were all going out and scoring 280+ internationally this season, and Jason happened to show up place third at nationals with a lackluster performance after not competing all year, I would argue against putting him on the world team. Saying the team should be based on actual performance doesn’t necessarily mean only nationals performance, even though that event should weigh heavily. It just means that it should include real programs and results that actually exist, not whatever fantasy programs and results people are imagining in their heads three years from now.

Three guys are going to need to make their cases to be put on the world team. IMO, one already has - I think Ilia should be sent, if he’s healthy, even if he bombs at nationals. We don’t have two other guys yet who have done well enough to make convincing arguments yet. We’ll see what they’ve all done by the time the team is selected.

 

[LeafOnTheWind]

I am mostly cranky that people start downplaying the need for experience when it suits their favorite skater. We hear about the importance of experience all the time on the Jr Grand Prix. This is also the major discussion point for developing nations. They need to go to competitions for the experience. Scott Hamilton, Brian Boitano and even Nathan all talked about how their first Olympic experience helped them focus on gold for their second. They all said they needed the first one. The same holds true for Worlds, Nationals, 1st Grand Prix assignment, etc. The first experience is important.

I feel like this gets lost a lot of times in USFS selection. I feel like they are caught between trying to find an entertainment factor to win fans vs sending and building medal threats. That's a longer and different discussion that will derail the men's thread.

 

[VGThuy]

I would just like to point out the hypocrisy here. A lot of you were perfectly happy for Jason to make the Olympic team over someone who beat him at Nationals. Now it's a horrible idea that Jason beats someone and doesn't get sent to Worlds. By the way, USFS clearly isn't using top 3 at Nationals anymore and hasn't for awhile so it doesn't really matter now does it?

Just because I need people to know this, I wasn’t one of the people that was happy about Jason over Ilia but I also wasn’t unhappy either. Anyway, I always think these sort of things should be viewed on a case-by-case basis and it seems selection is subject to deviate more during the Olympic year or pre-Olympic year…unless it’s a Ladies in 2008 Nationals situation.

Reminds me of the controversy over late-career Kwan. It was said the ISU asked the USFS to stop sending Kwan. They had been viewing her skating for 10 years and hoped for something new. I took that to mean someone with a higher technical level - 2005 was still the 3-2 era. I love Jason and if his PCS-rich score beats the others, so be it. Still, the US aside from Ilyia, seems stagnant.

@SkateFanBerlin I don’t remember the ISU ever asking the USFS to stop sending Kwan. In fact she was a huge superstar in the US and a main reason tv contracts kept getting renewed. She also ensured people went to competitions in the US. And that’s a bit rich considering there were so many “journey women” competing by 2006 doing similar content to her. Kwan couldn’t help that she was dealing with chronic or re-appearing injuries due to skating at a medal winning level on the Senior Circuit for about 12 seasons by 2006.

 

[clairecloutier]

I just don't understand why we need to have this discussion in early November. Why not just wait until Nationals? LOL. There's still a lot of skating to come between now and then ....

 

[sheetz]

The real issue is that US men are in sad shape aside from Ilia. If not for Jason Ilia would have a great chance of beating Nathan's record for largest margin of victory at Nationals.

 

[Trillian]

I feel like this gets lost a lot of times in USFS selection. I feel like they are caught between trying to find an entertainment factor to win fans vs sending and building medal threats. That's a longer and different discussion that will derail the men's thread.

I agree that the selection process is messy and probably always will be. Any country that has more skaters with TES minimums than spots on the team is always going to have some challenges figuring out what criteria to weigh most heavily. (Spanish ice dancing for the last five years or so was probably the ultimate case in point.) We don’t all agree about which things should be weighed most heavily and why, and that’s true for USFS as well.

I really don’t care if people want to argue the case for their favorite skater based on things they’ve actually done. At this point in the season, unless your favorite skater is named Ilia Malinin, good luck convincing everyone else. But if you’re arguing that a specific skater should be preemptively disqualified from consideration, just say you don’t like them. It’s ridiculous to pretend that we should craft rules to exclude otherwise qualified skaters from consideration regardless of what actually happens in competition.

 

[LeafOnTheWind]

Is anyone really believing extreme only sides of the argument anyway? This type of discussion style forces people on an argument path that doesn't allow for all the nuances.