U.S. Men 2021-22 season news & updates

[Jarrett]

4th doesn't get a real medal, then.

w/e that means.

 

[angi]

I would like to see how Vincent's jumps were called because it sounds like Tara and Johnny thought they were favorable when they shouldn't have been.

Jackie Wong said the only calls he got were 4Tq, 3Aq and if it's true this is outrageous, aside from two jumping passes the rest were as far from clean as possible. If Jason is left out because Vincent URs weren't called it will be infuriating.
ETA: confirmed in the protocols.

 

[Jarrett]

Jackie Wong said the only calls he got were 4Tq, 3Aq and if it's true this is outrageous, aside from two jumping passes the rest were as far from clean as possible. I Jason is left out because Vincent URs weren't called it will be infuriating.

That is outrageous. Yes confirmed the detailed results are up. Wow.

 

[angi]

That is outrageous. Yes confirmed the detailed results are up. Wow.

Why is Vincent's case even stronger than Jason's after this? He bombed at Worlds and didn't make the FS, did well at Nebelhorn and at Skate America (but still several 'q'), and bombed the FS at his second GP and here at US Championshps. If anything Jason is way more consistent.

 

[Jarrett]

Why is Vincent's case even stronger than Jason's after this? He bombed at Worlds and didn't make the FS, did well at Nebelhorn and at Skate America (but still several 'q'), and bombed the FS at his second GP and here at US Championshps. If anything Jason is way more consistent.

Why are you asking me?

 

[LeafOnTheWind]

If Jason is left out because Vincent URs weren't called it will be infuriating.

Jason will probably not go to the Olympics because of Ilia. Thanks to @Karen-W for so meticulously keeping up with the criteria all season.

Vincent and Nathan have been locks for 2 spots. Jason needed to beat Ilia.

 

[VGThuy]

Vincent and Nathan were already on the team before Nationals started. Jason was fighting Ilia for the third spot. Jason deserved the bronze medal though. They could have justified Vincent's placement on the team using the team selection criteria they set out that clearly had Vincent in Group 2 with Jason in Group 3 with no hope of moving up to Group 2 and Ilia being put in Group 3 after his top 3 placement at Nationals.

Jason got three generous calls but Vincent's LP was a huge mess. He knows he got a gift here. That said, Vincent belongs on the Olympic team, no question. He proved it in the Fall, and we know what his scoring potential/ceiling is and it's within the medalist realm. He's also the only skater to beat Nathan Chen internationally in the past three seasons.

Jason may be more consistent that just means top 7 at best and more likely fighting to stay in the top ten. Vincent can be as down as 15th (if he qualifies for the LP) or medal. Vincent is a high risk/high reward type of skater and he's been improving his consistency. And don't act like Jason hasn't had his fair share of bad skates. For a while, scoring a LP in the 150s-160s was AVERAGE for Jason.

 

[RoseRed]

Jackie Wong said the only calls he got were 4Tq, 3Aq and if it's true this is outrageous, aside from two jumping passes the rest were as far from clean as possible. If Jason is left out because Vincent URs weren't called it will be infuriating.
ETA: confirmed in the protocols.

The thing is, that going by the USFS selection criteria, it wouldn't matter if Vincent was ahead of or behind Jason. His international scores meant that he only needed top five to make priority group 2. Whereas both Jason and Ilia are in group 3. So unless the USFS ignored their own criteria (possible I guess), it would still come down to Ilia v Jason for the 3rd spot.

 

[Jarrett]

Vincent and Nathan were already on the team before Nationals started. Jason was fighting Ilia for the third spot. Jason deserved the bronze medal though. They could have justified Vincent's placement on the team using the team selection criteria they set out that clearly had Vincent in Group 2 with Jason in Group 3 with no hope of moving up to Group 2 and Ilia being put in Group 3 after his top 3 placement at Nationals.

Jason got three generous calls but Vincent's LP was a huge mess. He knows he got a gift here. That said, Vincent belongs on the Olympic team, no question. He proved it in the Fall, and we know what his scoring potential/ceiling is and it's within the medalist realm. He's also the only skater to beat Nathan Chen internationally in the past three seasons.

Jason may be more consistent that just means top 7 at best and more likely fighting to stay in the top ten. Vincent can be as down as 15th or medal. Vincent is a high risk/high reward type of skater and he's been improving his consistency. And don't act like Jason hasn't had his fair share of bad skates. For a while, scoring a LP in the 150s-160s was AVERAGE for Jason.

Shoma Uno beat him too. Nathan was just a complete mess (for him) that event and Vincent has already shown he can be much lower than 15th. :|

 

[tylersf]

Congrats to Nathan, Ilia, Vincent and Jason for their podium finishes!

 

[Allskate]

He's also the only skater to beat Nathan Chen internationally in the past three seasons.

That's because of how Nathan skated at Skate America. If Nathan skated that way on a regular basis, he would have been beaten by others at other competitions. Yes, that was Vincent's best skating ever, but it was an aberration for both Vincent and Nathan.

 

[VGThuy]

Shoma Uno beat him too. Nathan was just a complete mess (for him) that event.

True! Shoma and Vincent. But still Vincent came out on top. We know what he can do if he does it. It's ironic Jason fans don't want Jason thrown away and are arguing to remember his international scores but they are willing to throw Vincent away quickly. True Jason never did as badly as not qualifying for the LP at Worlds, but he also had some truly low scores in the LP and Vincent averages better than Jason by far.

 

[VGThuy]

That's because of how Nathan skated at Skate America. If Nathan skated that way on a regular basis, he would have been beaten by others at other competitions. Yes, that was Vincent's best skating ever, but it was an aberration for both Vincent and Nathan.

And would Jason Brown have beaten Nathan? His scores this Fall and all of his career outside of one 4CC competition some seasons ago indicate no. That's the point. Vincent was able to put himself in that position and has high scoring potential. And it wasn't a fluke either.

 

[baramin]

I would love to see Brown at the Olympics with Chen & Malinin, but it'll probably be the quad trio. It's a bummer, but if nothing else, I do really hope Brown is assigned worlds straight out--he looks trained & healthy, and if 2022 worlds is anything like 2018 worlds, Jason would have a legit medal shot...

 

[Wyliefan]

I would love to see Brown at the Olympics with Chen & Malinin, but it'll probably be the quad trio. It's a bummer, but if nothing else, I do really hope Brown is assigned worlds straight out--he looks trained & healthy, and if 2022 worlds is anything like 2018 worlds, Jason would have a legit medal shot...

That would be a lovely silver lining.

 

[Jarrett]

I would love to see Brown at the Olympics with Chen & Malinin, but it'll probably be the quad trio. It's a bummer, but if nothing else, I do really hope Brown is assigned worlds straight out--he looks trained & healthy, and if 2022 worlds is anything like 2018 worlds, Jason would have a legit medal shot...

For worlds I would actually drop Vincent not Ilia but I have a feeling Nathan might just retire if he wins gold anyway.

 

[yeslek]

I don’t think 12 pts at nationals is enough to beat Jason’s body of work.

 

[Karen-W]

And, one final update before we get official word on the Olympic team:

Group 1 Highest Priority	Group 2	Group 3	Group 4 Lowest Priority
CRITERIA FOR 2022 US CHAMPIONSHIPS	Placed in the top 3 AND	Placed in the top 5 AND	Placed in the top 3 OR	Placed in the top 5 OR
CRITERIA FOR 2021 INTERNATIONAL SCORES *	Consistently scored equal to Top 3 at 2021 Worlds M – 289.18	Consistently scored equal to Top 5 at 2021 Worlds M – 272.04 AND/OR scored once equal to Top 3 at 2021 Worlds	Consistently scored equal to Top 10 at 2021 Worlds M – 245.99 AND/OR scored once equal to Top 5 at 2021 Worlds	Consistently scored equal to Top 15 at 2021 Worlds M – 225.55 OR Scored once equal to Top 10 at 2021 Worlds

Men
Group 1 - Nathan Chen (320.88 Worlds 2021; 269.37 SkAm; 307.18 SCI; GPF) 1st 2022 Nationals
Group 2 - Vincent Zhou (70.51 Worlds 2021; 288.26 Cranberry; 284.23 CS Nebelhorn; 295.56 SkAm; 260.69 NHK; GPF) 3rd 2022 Nationals
Group 3 -

• Jason Brown (262.17 Worlds 2021; 262.52 CS Finlandia; 259.55 SCI; 264.20 IdF; GPF) 4th 2022 Nationals
• Ilia Malinin (214.64 JGP Courchevel 1; 245.35 JGP Austria; 222.55 CS Austria; JGPF) 2nd 2022 Nationals

Group 4 -

• Jimmy Ma (230.59 Cranberry; 233.58 US Classic; 228.12 SkAm; 195.09 CS Warsaw; 250.97 CS Golden Spin) 6th 2022 Nationals
• Camden Pulkinen (179.50 Cranberry; 208.99 US Classic; 204.24 CS Finlandia; 193.18 NHK; 237.97 Rostelecom) 5th 2022 Nationals

Others with International Assignments
Tomoki Hiwatashi (205.17 Cranberry; 213.11 CS Lombardia; 221.77 SCI; 217.08 NHK) withdrawn from Nationals 1/6
Max Naumov (223.15 Cranberry; 207.39 US Classic) withdrawn from Nationals 12/9
Yaroslav Paniot (210.84 Cranberry) withdrawn from Nationals 1/9, 7th place in SP
Eric Sjoberg (221.12 US Classic; 189.38 CS Warsaw; 212.77 CS Golden Spin) withdrawn from Nationals 1/7
Dinh Tran (176.72 US Classic)

 

[misskarne]

That would be a lovely silver lining.

Are you out of your mind?! That wouldn't be a silver lining at all, it'd be horribly cruel. "Thanks for all that work and all those medals you put in over the quad, thanks for actually doing the job we sent you to do at Worlds last year (unlike some), but it's all meaningless now we've got another shiny new toy, so you don't get the one thing you uprooted your whole life to fight for, but we'll use you to make sure the three spots are secure. Will you get to use them, who knows, we might find another shiny toy next year!"

 

[Allskate]

And would Jason Brown have beaten Nathan? His scores this Fall and all of his career outside of one 4CC competition some seasons ago indicate no. That's the point. Vincent was able to put himself in that position and has high scoring potential. And it wasn't a fluke either.

Your argument was that Vincent should go because he was the only one to beat Nathan (which isn't even true given Shoma's placement). I don't think that's a very compelling argument. And, yes, scoring potential is a factor, but so is consistency. I really don't want Vincent skating in the team competition. But, all of this is based on my own personal weighing of factors. In the end, they have rules to apply and I think they should apply them. And, realistically, given Vincent's scoring today, I think it's pretty clear how TPTB want to go. What I want and what will happen are two very different things. I feel badly for Vincent because he has worked hard to improve, but there are a lot of people who are going to see him as being gifted his placement today.

 

[Jarrett]

And, one final update before we get official word on the Olympic team:

Group 1 Highest Priority	Group 2	Group 3	Group 4 Lowest Priority
CRITERIA FOR 2022 US CHAMPIONSHIPS	Placed in the top 3 AND	Placed in the top 5 AND	Placed in the top 3 OR	Placed in the top 5 OR
CRITERIA FOR 2021 INTERNATIONAL SCORES *	Consistently scored equal to Top 3 at 2021 Worlds M – 289.18	Consistently scored equal to Top 5 at 2021 Worlds M – 272.04 AND/OR scored once equal to Top 3 at 2021 Worlds	Consistently scored equal to Top 10 at 2021 Worlds M – 245.99 AND/OR scored once equal to Top 5 at 2021 Worlds	Consistently scored equal to Top 15 at 2021 Worlds M – 225.55 OR Scored once equal to Top 10 at 2021 Worlds

Men
Group 1 - Nathan Chen (320.88 Worlds 2021; 269.37 SkAm; 307.18 SCI; GPF) 1st 2022 Nationals
Group 2 - Vincent Zhou (70.51 Worlds 2021; 288.26 Cranberry; 284.23 CS Nebelhorn; 295.56 SkAm; 260.69 NHK; GPF) 3rd 2022 Nationals
Group 3 -

• Jason Brown (262.17 Worlds 2021; 262.52 CS Finlandia; 259.55 SCI; 264.20 IdF; GPF) 4th 2022 Nationals
• Ilia Malinin (214.64 JGP Courchevel 1; 245.35 JGP Austria; 222.55 CS Austria; JGPF) 2nd 2022 Nationals

Group 4 -

• Jimmy Ma (230.59 Cranberry; 233.58 US Classic; 228.12 SkAm; 195.09 CS Warsaw; 250.97 CS Golden Spin) 6th 2022 Nationals
• Camden Pulkinen (179.50 Cranberry; 208.99 US Classic; 204.24 CS Finlandia; 193.18 NHK; 237.97 Rostelecom) 5th 2022 Nationals

Others with International Assignments
Tomoki Hiwatashi (205.17 Cranberry; 213.11 CS Lombardia; 221.77 SCI; 217.08 NHK) withdrawn from Nationals 1/6
Max Naumov (223.15 Cranberry; 207.39 US Classic) withdrawn from Nationals 12/9
Yaroslav Paniot (210.84 Cranberry) withdrawn from Nationals 1/9, 7th place in SP
Eric Sjoberg (221.12 US Classic; 189.38 CS Warsaw; 212.77 CS Golden Spin) withdrawn from Nationals 1/7
Dinh Tran (176.72 US Classic)

Do we know when they are going to announce?

 

[VGThuy]

Your argument was that Vincent should go because he was the only one to beat Nathan (which isn't even true given Shoma's placement). I don't think that's a very compelling argument. And, yes, scoring potential is a factor, but so is consistency. I really don't want Vincent skating in the team competition. But, all of this is based on my own personal weighing of factors. In the end, they have rules to apply and I think they should apply them. And, realistically, given Vincent's scoring today, I think it's pretty clear how TPTB want to go. What I want and what will happen are two very different things. I feel badly for Vincent because he has worked hard to improve, but there are a lot of people who are going to see him as being gifted his placement today.

Then they're ignoring every score this past Fall that happened internationally.

 

[On My Own]

By the way, https://ijs.usfigureskating.org/leaderboard/results/2022/29546/CAT007SEG016.html

This says Zhou only got one deduction on the LP. He fell twice didn't he?

 

[Vash01]

The thing is, that going by the USFS selection criteria, it wouldn't matter if Vincent was ahead of or behind Jason. His international scores meant that he only needed top five to make priority group 2. Whereas both Jason and Ilia are in group 3. So unless the USFS ignored their own criteria (possible I guess), it would still come down to Ilia v Jason for the 3rd spot.

True but I think the USFS didn't want yet another controversy by selecting a 4th place finisher over a 3rd place. Outside the FS fans and experts most people don't know what the selection criteria are. The FS nationals is not an Olympic trial. Many people don't understand that. So a generous scoring for Vincent, and Jason's lack of a quad gave them an easy way.

 

[misskarne]

By the way, https://ijs.usfigureskating.org/leaderboard/results/2022/29546/CAT007SEG016.html

This says Zhou only got one deduction on the LP. He fell twice didn't he?

Yes, he did.

I would like to see Jason's team protest, but I think he is too nice, Tracy isn't there, and now the medal ceremony is done it may be too late.

 

[becca]

Vincent is a world medalist Jason isn’t. If they are looking for the most medal worthy team it’s Chen Vincent Illia.

 

[becca]

Yes, he did.

I would like to see Jason's team protest, but I think he is too nice, Tracy isn't there, and now the medal ceremony is done it may be too late.

It’s not like Jason didn’t have some generous calling himself

 

[Karen-W]

Do we know when they are going to announce?

https://www.usfigureskating.org/sites/default/files/media-files/2022%20Team%20Selection%20Meetings.pdf

Per this - at 5:45pm CT - so just over 2 hours. Skaters should know within the next 30 minutes.

 

[Wyliefan]

Are you out of your mind?! That wouldn't be a silver lining at all, it'd be horribly cruel. "Thanks for all that work and all those medals you put in over the quad, thanks for actually doing the job we sent you to do at Worlds last year (unlike some), but it's all meaningless now we've got another shiny new toy, so you don't get the one thing you uprooted your whole life to fight for, but we'll use you to make sure the three spots are secure. Will you get to use them, who knows, we might find another shiny toy next year!"

I want Jason at the Olympics too. But I don't control these things. If they don't let him go, I would love to see him medal at Worlds. That's all.

It's the same thing I've been thinking about Satoko, who's my current favorite skater of all.

 

[On My Own]

It’s not like Jason didn’t have some generous calling himself

Jason and Zhou both got generous calls, but if the deductions are applied as they should be (literally -1 for each fall), with however we categorize the calling they each got, Brown is Bronze. Something the committee will probably think about.