U.S. Ladies [#19]: Do You Know the Way to San Jose?

[artsciboy]

The best hope for the US Ladies to medal at the Olympics is sitting out the season. Only Gracie had the talent to not need meltdowns from other skaters to get on the podium when she was at her best and she could actually rotate her jumps.

And when did Gracie ever accomplish that? Never. Having "talent" includes competitive nerves, and Gracie was simply not talented in that area.

Whether someone gets on the podium if everyone skates clean or because the competition was lacking, it doesn't matter. That's sport.

 

[Bellanca]

Save hand-wringing for January and join #TeamPollyanna now. Plenty of seats available! Get your tickets, folks!

 

[kwanfan1818]

Well the gloom is for real. Courtney looked much improved but she does not have the support at home nor internationally of the judges

It looked to me that she had solid support of the international judges, especially considering that she's long been "that other American" as a senior.

That doesn't seem to much matter to USFS, though.

 

[artsciboy]

It looked to me that she had solid support of the international judges, especially considering that she's long been "that other American" as a senior.

That doesn't seem to much matter to USFS, though.

Courtney gets the support of the international judges when she rotates those jumps. Her PCS is another matter - the lumberjack on ice skating to Amazing Grace look is not helping matters (internationally or nationally). Her best bet is to land *every* jump and boost her reputation by being consistent. She hasn't been able to do that and its not a surprise to me (when you factor in her lackluster presentation) that the USFS has not given her as much support.

 

[Bellanca]

Whether someone gets on the podium if everyone skates clean or because the competition was lacking, it doesn't matter. That's sport.

Faniacs, remember this! Don't be hypocritical when it doesn't go your way.

 

[GullyGirl84]

The only time that Courtney has arguably been underscored at nationals, from my perspective, was 2015 nationals, where I thought that her SP should have been at least in the top 3 (instead of in 5th). But her LP then, and both programs at nationals since then, I'm not sure there is exactly an argument that the USFS has been screwing her over (unless people think she should have gotten the TBA Skate America spot over Bradie, which could be argued, though Bradie did very well over the summer). She had a lot of "third spot" momentum after she won silver at NHK, and then she fell twice in the sp at 2016 nationals. Hopefully she'll take advantage of her next challenger assignment to do well, if she doesn't end up getting a second grand prix assignment. I've liked both her short and long programs in the last few years.

edit: can people give specific examples of instances where Courtney has suffered from others' benefit of the doubt points from USFS, other than her 2015 nationals sp? Being sincere.

 

[jlai]

Has Courtney skated well at nationals and got left off a team? I don't remember that. I do remember her not doing well at either the short or long at nationals.

 

[Bellanca]

Assigning a spot to a particular skater has become a really bad habit. No one 'owns' an Olympic spot!! Bradie, Courtney, etc., both are capable of spot 1, 2, 30, 40... I mean, come on! Enough of this assigning spots or 'third spot' bullsh!t.

 

[kwanfan1818]

the lumberjack on ice skating to Amazing Grace look is not helping matters (internationally or nationally).

She looked strong, nothing like a lumberjack, to me in the arena.

Has Courtney skated well at nationals and got left off a team? I don't remember that. I do remember her not doing well at either the short or long at nationals.

USFS has given benefit of the doubt points for weaker skaters who have their support.

She looks stronger than I've ever seen her, but unless she kills the field at Nationals, only a Brown-like track record from international judges would help her, IMO.

 

[Teamgracie]

And when did Gracie ever accomplish that? Never. Having "talent" includes competitive nerves, and Gracie was simply not talented in that area.

Whether someone gets on the podium if everyone skates clean or because the competition was lacking, it doesn't matter. That's sport.

Bless your heart for picking on someone that’s suffering now but Gracie did it, 2014, 2016 and she has incredible talent.

 

[bardtoob]

Assigning a spot to a particular skater has become a really bad habit. No one 'owns' an Olympic spot!! Bradie, Courtney, etc., both are capable of spot 1, 2, 30, 40... I mean, come on! Enough of this assigning spots or 'third spot' bullsh!t.

The sad reason for this is not about sport but because of marketing ... And marketing is about funding.

 

[Bellanca]

If Karen, Ashley and Mirai, for example, implode at Nationals (always a possibility) or just have a series of shaky skates for the remainder of the season (definitely a possibility) because of what is on the line, and Courtney, Mariah and Bradie, for example, do not, and end up having the more consistent and stronger season, then they, justifiably so, should be named to the team. It's as simple as that, unless you prefer a popularity contest over legitimate sport and competition.

 

[Bellanca]

The sad reason for this is not about sport but because of marketing ... And marketing is about funding.

Absolutely true. Complete hacks.

 

[GullyGirl84]

If Karen, Ashley and Mirai, for example, implode at Nationals (always a possibility) or just have a series of shaky skates for the remainder of the season (definitely a possibility) because of what is on the line, and Courtney, Mariah and Bradie, etc., do not, and end up having the more consistent and stronger season, then they, justifiably so, should be named to the team. It's as simple as that, unless you prefer a popularity contest over legitimate sport and competition.

I'll agree with this, I think that nationals is going to come more into play than the "body of work" that causes the endless arguments (unless maybe someone medals at the grand prix final, which seems unlikely at this point, but I guess anything is possible) it causes. If anything, I think how people have done so far affects nationals scoring (I just don't think it's particularly affected Courtney in the past, per my comments above). It seems like most of the top contenders are off to a less than stellar start, but it's also only been two grand prix events...everyone is just reading tea leaves here. Surprises have happened at nationals (Polina in 2014? Even though she made the junior grand prix final that year. Karen last year, etc.). Plus olympic year nationals tend to put more stress on some/bring out the beast in others. A lot more seems possible this year than in year's past.

 

[jlai]

USFS has given benefit of the doubt points for weaker skaters who have their support.
.

Like Czisny? Well we all know the end of that one. I hope history won't repeat on that one

 

[Seerek]

The sad reason for this is not about sport but because of marketing ... And marketing is about funding.

Exactly. People here may not follow other judge-based sports, but tust me when I say that the above rationale will likely factor in choosing the Olympic teams in freestyle ski and snowboard as well.

 

[SkateFanBerlin]

Like Czisny? Well we all know the end of that one. I hope history won't repeat on that one

Alissa had major physical problems that ended her career. Is that "the end" you're referring to?

 

[VGThuy]

Alissa had major physical problems that ended her career. Is that "the end" you're referring to?

Yeah, at least Czisny won a few things before that happened, including the GPF over some world champs and medalists.

 

[AngieNikodinovLove (ANL)]

Yeah, at least Czisny won a few things before that happened, including the GPF over some world champs and medalists.

Totes! Czisny was more of a threat internationally than Karen, Mirai, Mariah and Courtney ATM!!!

I no longer think its doom and gloom for US ladies after the wild ride from yesterday...

I think Ash will sneak in to the GP Final as well.

 

[Maximillian]

I've been impressed by Courtney's talent for years now but she has never put it together at Nationals. If she did this year I have no doubt she would be on the Olympic and World team.

I get where people are coming in saying we should wait until January for the handwring to begin, but I do feel that this year things are a bit more bleak without Gold in the picture. While Gracie never fulfilled her potential and had all sorts of issues with clean skates, she was always right up there in terms of being a contender for a podium placement at worlds (always with the caveat, if she hits) and even then when she didn't hit she was usually top 5. I don't think we have a lady competing now who can make the top 5 if they DON'T hit both programs and I think even if they do hit, while top 5 would be realistic, I think a podium finish would be a BIG ask. Honestly, I think Wagner is our best chance and she has to up her game.

I tip my hat to Osmond and while I doubted her consistency, the world medal has done wornders for her confidence. She and Medvedeva are just a level above everyone else right now

 

[bardtoob]

I've been impressed by Courtney's talent for years now but she has never put it together at Nationals.

The way Courtney's jumps pop in the air has always been very impressive.

 

[toddlj]

Last year at this time did anyone think Karen was going to finish 4th at world's?

 

[Maximillian]

.

 

[bardtoob]

.

Oh, I literally mean the spring is impressive. It was supposed to be a compliment.

 

[Maximillian]

Oh, I literally mean the spring is impressive. It is was supposed to be a compliment.

No, Sorry, I got what you meant... a little bit too late. Redacted my post.

 

[bardtoob]

No, Sorry, I got what you meant... a little bit too late. Redacted my post.

I followed suit with my quote from you.

None the less, here is an example of Courtney doing a huge combination.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tG9wAjy4-DY&feature=youtu.be&t=35

 

[Coco]

It sounds harsh and insensitive, but unless Ashely starts busting out with 200 point results internationally, I think they really need to call it like it is at Nationals and not give anyone special favors based on their 'body of work.'

At some point, USFSA needs to make it clear to the ladies that regardless of potential or "presentation," it's all about delivering on base value and GOE in competition.

I can't think of one US Lady who is a great competitor, always fighting for landings and achieving their planned content. If I'm missing someone, I apologize. I will say, Mirai going for a 3 jump combination at the end of her FS last week was a good sign and Ashley ripponing the 2t on her second 3loop was in a similar vein.

But overall, what we are seeing now is a reflection of years of knowing that benefit of the doubt is earned through politics and potential, not performance.

 

[jlai]

It sounds harsh and insensitive, but unless Ashely starts busting out with 200 point results internationally, I think they really need to call it like it is at Nationals and not give anyone special favors based on their 'body of work.'

At some point, USFSA needs to make it clear to the ladies that regardless of potential or "presentation," it's all about delivering on base value and GOE in competition.

I can't think of one US Lady who is a great competitor, always fighting for landings and achieving their planned content. If I'm missing someone, I apologize. I will say, Mirai going for a 3 jump combination at the end of her FS last week was a good sign and Ashley ripponing the 2t on her second 3loop was in a similar vein.

But overall, what we are seeing now is a reflection of years of knowing that benefit of the doubt is earned through politics and potential, not performance.

Ashley had a GPF medal in 2014, but it would be tough for US ladies to repeat that feat this year.

Therefore, I think no one by nationals would have a body of work that will get them on the team if they have an off night at nationals.

FWIW, I don't consider body of work special favors. If we have a Shoma Uno kind of skater on the ladies team, or a skater with a likely shot at the Olympic podium, I am sure that skater gets to go even with an off night at nationals. Other than that, anything goes.

 

[kwanfan1818]

Team Event, people.

 

[bardtoob]

Mirai going for a 3 jump combination at the end of her FS last week was a good sign ...

Yes, and on a 3Lp combo, of all jumps. It is rare these days that American Ladies correct their jump content when something does not go right. Only skaters like Medvedeva and Radionova do that.