U.S. Ladies [#17]: Heading to Helsinki in a Handbasket

[Coco]

The venue will be Ashley's biggest challenge. One only has to look at the results from '99 worlds to see whom is at an advantage in Helsinki.

What on earth are you talking about?

 

[NinjaTurtles]

What on earth are you talking about?

I'm guessing it's a comment on how '99 was a gold medal sweep for Russia.

I'm cautiously optimistic for Ashley. I enjoy Carolina's skating greatly, but I don't see her on the podium with one 3F and no 3Z.

 

[personwhoishere]

I'm guessing it's a comment on how '99 was a gold medal sweep for Russia.

I'm cautiously optimistic for Ashley. I enjoy Carolina's skating greatly, but I don't see her on the podium with one 3F and no 3Z.

She may very well have a 3z for Worlds...remember what she pulled off seemingly out of nowhere at the Olympics? Plus the judges love her.

I'd personally love to see a podium of Carolina, Kaetlyn AND Ashley. Yes, I'm a dreamer

 

[berthesghost]

I'm guessing it's a comment on how '99 was a gold medal sweep for Russia

not only a gold sweep, but they took home 6 of the 12 medals available.

"Home court advantage" isn't always something nefarious. It could be something as simple as the long plane ride gave Kwan a cold.

 

[skatingguy]

It also happens that the Russians were very strong at that time - maybe the peak of their figure skating power across all four disciplines - and the rest of the world was not that strong.

 

[Vagabond]

"Home court advantage" isn't always something nefarious. It could be something as simple as the long plane ride gave Kwan a cold.

Or that Yagudin and Plushenko were simply better than their competition.

I doubt any of their rivals truly believed that he would beat either of them, let alone both.

 

[berthesghost]

All true facts we all already knew. The dominance of plushy and yags at this time explains soldotova's surprise bronze how exactly?

 

[AngieNikodinovLove (ANL)]

Yes she is the reigning silver medalist, but this year she will no longer be skating at home at Worlds and her free program isn't nearly as engaging. Her jumps and spins continue to have issues so I want to be cautiously optimistic. I think 5th is pretty fair given how this season has gone so far.

Kaetlyn has had a streak of clean SPs and 2 mistake-LPs but her elements have been so strong that she still racks up so much points. I don't know what Carolina's content is going to be but she is the only one who can challenge Evgenia on PCS (rightly or wrongly).

Agree. With Satoko out, Medev's chalengers will be Anna and Caro.. and those are who I think the podium finishers will be. Same as Euros.

 

[AngieNikodinovLove (ANL)]

What on earth are you talking about?

Isnt that when Butryskaya defeated Kwan??

But Kwan had a fall or falls.....

 

[Spun Silver]

@berthesghost, who is in your avatar, and when?? It is weirdly wonderful.

 

[berthesghost]

@berthesghost, who is in your avatar, and when?? It is weirdly wonderful.

Tenley Albright circa 1950s. Thanks to YouTube, she and her brother in law are two of my before my time obsessions

 

[Sasha'sSpins]

A lot of us do not like her free program. We should each pick out her music and choreograph an LP for her. While we're at it, let's pick out or make a costume for her too.
Since my coach retired and works in her husband's office now (probably after having me as a student), I feel I should disqualify myself as choreographer and costumer.

I remember Mirai once asked her fans for ideas for her music one season. I sure wish she'd do that again this year for her FS (she should keep the SP since it's been received so well by judges).

Imo, Mirai needs strong, powerful UPBEAT music for the long. Violins and horns (like some Classical or Gershwin type music) causes me to doze. I wish she'd try something Gladiatoresque or Rockyesque (like Creed's "Fighting Stronger" with censored lyrics of course https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ejn2cmth7gM) or something dramatic like the music from "The Virgin Queen" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OrRO8AyyPqg&list=PL3kDiqr4gVtKgy0SyHhli48opfPRZLKRe

Even when she hit at 4CCs I disliked TWTIA. I was focused on her landing her jumps and that was all. It was horrible listening to those lyrics at Nationals as she struggled around the ice. But if she chooses to keep that song I hope she adds way more choreo back and shows expression from start to finish. A blank face the first half is not going to win her points. She needs to SELL SELL SELL from start to finish along with getting those jumps around.

 

[Spun Silver]

Tenley Albright circa 1950s. Thanks to YouTube, she and her brother in law are two of my before my time obsessions

That's what I thought! I love Tenley Albright! You should start a thread on her. I dont know who her BIL is ...

 

[Sasha'sSpins]

^^ You mean Mirai. As I mentioned in my previous post, I think it's the lack of expression on Mirai's face, and her inability to let loose. I don't think she necessarily doesn't feel the music. She just seems to have difficulty fully engaging with and expressing the music because she's over-focused on completing her elements. She never learned the fine balance between not showing the mental effort and being confident enough with the muscle memory to focus on fully performing.

The flashes of times when she has relaxed and performed or smiled with abandon have been few and far between. I certainly see those flashes of brilliance and abandon in this performance:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hsp-7S79IYI 2010 Olympic fs

At the time, perhaps her young age and the politics were not in Mirai's favor at 2010 Olympics. But no question, she was on fire in that performance. What went so wrong after this? Personal problems (her mother's illness)? Growing pains? And then of course, the eventual split with Frank.

I saw it in Mirai's FS that 2010 Olympic season at Nationals and the Games but I saw it the most in Mirai's 2010 Olympic season SP at Nationals, the Olympics and Worlds. She was just so joyful, so expressive, so exuberant with that SP. I wish she could find her mojo again from that year for this Olympic season's FS programs. Her SP is fine. Some added difficulty in the jumps and transitions should serve her well there.

 

[oliver]

Tenley Albright circa 1950s. Thanks to YouTube, she and her brother in law are two of my before my time obsessions

Who was Tenley's brother-in-law?

 

[Sasha'sSpins]

Who was Tenley's brother-in-law?

I'm wondering the same. I know of Carol Heiss-Jenkins brother-in-law David Jenkins but I've no idea who Albright's BIL was.

 

[berthesghost]

I dont know who her BIL is ...

Heiss' brother in law mangled by autocorrect lol

 

[tylersf]

I don't like that emphasis on USFSA saying that they have the right not to send the National Champion. Even if Mirai wins, I worry that they'll shaft her anyway.

Well, Mirai is just going to have to reclaim her title next year then. Cue the 3A!

 

[Frida80]

I don't like that emphasis on USFSA saying that they have the right not to send the National Champion. Even if Mirai wins, I worry that they'll shaft her anyway.

If Mirai wins with a 3A and has that her jumps consistent, they'll send her. She just needs to have way more confidence in herself next season than last season.

 

[skatesindreams]

Tenley Albright circa 1950s. Thanks to YouTube, she and her brother in law are two of my before my time obsessions

Carol Heiss (1960 Gold Medalist) is married to Hayes Alan Jenkins (1956 Gold Medalist).
David Jenkins (1960 Gold Medalist) is her brother-in-law.

 

[just wondering]

If Mirai wins with a 3A and has that her jumps consistent, they'll send her. She just needs to have way more confidence in herself next season than last season.

I would even be so bold as to say: "If Mirai wins * * * and has her jumps consistent, they'll send her. * * * ."

 

[aftershocks]

Isnt that when Butryskaya defeated Kwan??

But Kwan had a fall or falls.....

At 1999 Worlds, Michelle Kwan had a minor stumble out on a jumping pass in the sp. Michelle skated fine in the fp and came in second overall behind Maria Butryskaya. All the while, Michelle was suffering from the effects of a cold that likely would have had most other competitors finishing off the podium or withdrawing from the competition altogether.

BTW, it was at 1997 U.S. Nationals that Michelle fell several times in her fp -- she had skate boot problems -- which led to her losing to Tara Lipinski. At 1997 Worlds, MK as defending champ, skated a bit nervously in winning her Taj Mahal fp, but she still ended up losing overall to Lipinski. The fact that 1997 was the 14-year-old Lipinski's Worlds debut demonstrates the lack of depth that existed in the ladies division at that time.

The venue will be Ashley's biggest challenge. One only has to look at the results from '99 worlds to see whom is at an advantage in Helsinki.

What on earth are you talking about?

@berthesghost is likely referencing the fact that 1999 Worlds took place in Helsinki, Finland which is very close to a very popular figure skating country.

Taking a look back at the 1999 Worlds results in Helsinki, hmmm ... the same country won all the gold medals that year (and in fact took two medals each in men's, ladies, and pairs). I suppose that's another additional reason why the possibility for that same country sweeping ladies this year is considered to be high. Hopefully not though as having two of their ladies on the podium in Boston and again in Helsinki this year is riches enough with the sport's current depth in all divisions.

But now the battle for bronze in ice dance becomes even more interesting to watch.

 

[haribobo]

The fact that 1997 was the 14-year-old Lipinski's Worlds debut demonstrates the lack of depth that existed in the ladies division at that time.

Or 1996 Worlds when Tara finished 15th. Its funny to hear people say that field lacked depth. I look fondly back on those days when the programs were flashy and dynamic and 4 or 5 triples could occasionally land you on the World podium. So while that field may have lacked depth technically, the fields today (by and large, not everyone, as we still have Laurine and Gabby and some others) lack a lot of other things in comparison...

 

[alchemy void]

Oh come on. Saying that Wagner isn't likely to medal because of 1999 is weak, and really, just preposterous.

At 1999 Worlds, Michelle Kwan had a minor stumble out on a jumping pass in the sp.

It was not a minor stumble in the SP, she had a bad splat on a weak double axel. Her 4th place placement was considered rather generous by many, especially compared to Malinina and Rechnio, two very strong skaters with great overall elements, in 5th and 6th

Michelle skated fine in the fp and came in second overall behind Maria Butryskaya.

Yes. 6 clean triples, no double axel. Butyrskaya had 7 triples and a clean 2axel. If you watch her LP, the crowd was extremely supportive, lots of happy clappy, and very engaged in her performance. For the record, I think Ariane is Kwan's second best LP ever (after Taj Mahal) and her silver is well earned, although in a perfect world, I think Malinina deserved silver overall, Kwan bronze.

All the while, Michelle was suffering from the effects of a cold that likely would have had most other competitors finishing off the podium or withdrawing from the competition altogether.

I'm sorry, but that is such bullshit. Kwan NEVER used her cold as an excuse for underperforming at 1999 Worlds. Let's see how Kwan would have done with the terrible/non-existent training conditions Anna Rechnio had to deal with. Is it likely she would have "finished off the podium or withdrew from the competition altogether"? Kwan was the only skater who could handle adversity? Please.

 

[jlai]

I disagree about Malinina. One year before 99 she did Aladdin and got blasted for the program by Scott (and I did agree about the program). I am not sure landing 5 triples in that program made the program podium worthy.

 

[Vagabond]

@berthesghost is likely referencing the fact that 1999 Worlds took place in Helsinki, Finland which is very close to a very popular figure skating country.

Sweden?

 

[alchemy void]

I disagree about Malinina. One year before 99 she did Aladdin and got blasted for the program by Scott (and I did agree about the program). I am not sure landing 5 triples in that program made the program podium worthy.

It may have been the same program as 1997-1998, but she was skating it with so much more confidence, owning the hell out of those Egyptian arm movements, engaging the judges and audience, the performance level was really 100% better from the season before. (Also much improved hair. ) And, that, combined with consistent jumping, led to a huge boost in the presentation marks (she received 5.7 - 5.9 at the GPF a few weeks before Worlds).

 

[aftershocks]

Or 1996 Worlds when Tara finished 15th. Its funny to hear people say that field lacked depth. I look fondly back on those days when the programs were flashy and dynamic and 4 or 5 triples could occasionally land you on the World podium. So while that field may have lacked depth technically, the fields today (by and large, not everyone, as we still have Laurine and Gabby and some others) lack a lot of other things in comparison...

Hmmm, certainly a lot of interesting comparisons can be made between skaters today and skaters of the mid-to-late 90s. There were probably more unique and interesting skaters in that era who were not quite as boring and did not skate the same. Tara was lucky to get the experience and exposure in 1996, so the international judges were familiar with her the following year.

I thought it was a bit much for Tara to win in 1997. What do you attribute her winning to besides the fact that she came in as U.S. champion with 3/3? Michelle Kwan was clearly a better overall skater. It was MK's poorly fitting skates that caused her unexpected problems at '97 Nationals. Who else was in the running at 1997 Worlds? I don't remember. If it was Slutskaya and some of the other Russians, let's face it, they didn't put up much stiff competition.

Okay I checked, and just as I thought, the very interesting French skaters Hubert and Gusmeroli were competing then (Gusmeroli won bronze in '97; Hubert was 6th behind Slutskaya and Butryskaya). Although the French ladies were unique and compelling to watch, they simply were not that technically skilled. Slute and Bute had yet to flex their competitive muscles all the way. And I suppose with Tara Lip coming in with the 3-loop/ 3-loop as well as the U.S. Nationals crown (and MK not being at her most fiercely confident), that's what helped vault Tara to the top. Looking back, I hold to my original statement of lack of significant depth. Although there were a lot of interesting skaters at that time, they simply were not that great or consistent technically. That period was the beginning of MK's era of dominance, Russia's attempt to put something together with their ladies, and the rest of Europe's slow decline in ladies singles. Japanese skaters had yet to take the world by storm post Midori Ito.

Tara was a newbie coming in as 3rd place American in '96 and she made mistakes, so that's what likely had her in 15th place (otherwise she would probably have placed higher). It looks like 1996 was the end for Ito (she was there out of patriotic duty). Lu Chen, who while marvelous in '96, ended up second behind Kwan, and then failed to qualify for the fp in 1997. Bonaly was also on her way out. Again Irina and Maria were knocking on the door in '96 (Irina got on the podium for the first time that year as a fresh apple-cheeked young lady).

Other names in '96: Tanja Szewczenko, Tonia Kwiatkowski, Julia Vorobieva, Hanae Yokoya, Krisztina Czako, Liashenko, Malinina ...

 

[aftershocks]

It was not a minor stumble in the SP, she had a bad splat on a weak double axel. Her 4th place placement was considered rather generous by many, especially compared to Malinina and Rechnio, two very strong skaters with great overall elements, in 5th and 6th

I was actually thinking of 1997 Worlds sp, not 1999. My mistake.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mtveDWakMFQ MK 1997 sp A fall-out on the first jump of her opening combo (this is the program I was referencing, but I had the years mixed up). The rest of her program was superb, even in ill-fitting boots.

In 1999, Michelle had the flu and was not 100%, but she did not use that as an excuse. She still went out there and skated:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ta04kTVj2DU sp yes unsteady on opening jumping pass and a splat with quick bounce up on 2-axel
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=35AO47BLkec fp Pretty courageous -- not many athletes could have done as much under the circumstances of her illness

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=netQAvQafzY Rechnio sp well-skated technically, but not that polished or choreographically interesting
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=anGDBAc9opw Rechnio fp a very powerful jumper with good height, but not the best on components at all; plus she had her own splat on a jump in the fp along with a hand down on another jumping pass

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sajt0kVMbBI Malinina sp she had her problems on her opening jumping pass, and her program doesn't really compare with MK's sp, especially re choreo and components
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7JVObL4gn98 Malinina fp again, like Rechnio a fairly good jumper, but otherwise nothing very special; if she was special she would have been ahead of an under-the-weather MK

Oh eh, I was not saying that MK was the only one who could handle adversity, just that skating as well as she managed to do with the flu is not something most skaters or athletes in general would have been able to accomplish. That's not meant to dis her competitors or other athletes. MK certainly is not the only one to compete while sick, but I do think it's rare to still skate well enough to make the podium. And of course, MK had also built up a strong reputation for consistency, as well as above average quality aesthetically. I'm certain that MK's talent would have risen to the top under any adverse conditions in countries other than the U.S., as long as she had the emotional support of her family and a good coach by her side. Surely Rechnio had some crucial support from her coach and her family despite the poor training conditions she had to overcome.

I already said that MK never used her illness as an excuse. It's not an excuse, it's just a fact that she was skating while not 100% physically.

Obviously it was Maria Butryskaya who was the only one able to compete technically, aesthetically and choreographically with Michelle Kwan at 1999 Worlds. And hurray for Bute overcoming her startling stiff-knees weakness.


I do agree with you that referencing 1999 Worlds in Helsinki as a reason for Wagner being at a disadvantage in 2017 is a stretch. There are many other factors at play today. The flashback discussion and remembrances though have been entertaining and worth reflecting on.

 

[Loves_Shizuka]

I will forever love Diva Butyrskaya

That is all.