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U.S. Ladies [#17]: Heading to Helsinki in a Handbasket

Discussion in 'Great Skate Debate' started by Vagabond, Feb 19, 2017.

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  1. Frida80

    Frida80 Well-Known Member


    It will be much harder for Tessa to have a break out season like Mirai or Gracie. When they went to Frank they already has impressive resumes. Both of them won Jr nationals. Both of them won silver at JW. Mirai had already won a national title. Gracie placed silver at nationala the year before. They already had spots at the GP. Tessa has none of that. She has no international medals nor any junior or senior medals. She has promise but without results it will be impossible to get the USOC to pick her or more accomplished ladies.
    Willin likes this.
  2. Frida80

    Frida80 Well-Known Member

    As a personal that loves math and analyzing things, just like to say I love this post.
    Sasha'sSpins and Coco like this.
  3. Vagabond

    Vagabond Well-Known Member

    I love the concept of the Personal Worst Score or Season's Worst Score. :COP:

    May every skater's PWS and SWS be as high as possible. :saint:
  4. ChibiChibi

    ChibiChibi Active Member

    Yes, she is Korean. But you are right...her last name sounds more Chinese than Korean.
    Frida80 likes this.
  5. Mayra

    Mayra Well-Known Member

    Meanwhile, I love all the hypothetical hand wringing and :drama: over an Olympic season that hasn't happened yet and a decision by a skater that has or hasn't been made yet.
  6. Jammers

    Jammers Well-Known Member

    If Tessa isn't going to stay a Junior internationally she's not going to get many assignments next season certainly no GP's so i don't know what's going through her head. First she skips going for the Junior title this year after missing Nationals the last couple years and now thinks she doesn't need more experience on the Junior level. She needs more experience period since she hasn't competed much internationally at all and she won't get that if she moves up internationally as a Senior with no resume.
    Last edited: Mar 19, 2017
    Stephanie and Willin like this.
  7. Mayra

    Mayra Well-Known Member

    Where was it announced that these were her plans?
    Frida80 likes this.
  8. Frida80

    Frida80 Well-Known Member


    Good point. It's all speculation at this point.
  9. her grace

    her grace Team Polina

    Tessa Hong was previously coached by Frank Carroll. She already knows him; he already knows her and her family. Hopefully, that will help her make a quick adjustment. Regarding her future plans, I wouldn't be at all surprised if she's aiming senior internationally since she moved quickly through the domestic levels, has already skated two seasons on the JGP, and because there are so few spots available at the junior level. If her team decides to keep her junior internationally, however, she is a front runner for one of the seven spots.
    haribobo, Skateparent and feraina like this.
  10. Skateparent

    Skateparent Member

    For my edification, what was the seven spots that you were referring to? Is it that USA has a total of 7 spots for the 6 JGP events for 2018 season? Which means USFSA is able to send 2 ladies to one of 6 JGPs, 1 skater goes to the remaining 5 JGPs? Thank you.
  11. Sedge

    Sedge Well-Known Member

    Here are the qualification for JGP spots that result from World Junior ( singles...pairs is a bit different)

    The top 3 finishing Nations in each discipline will have 2 entries in each JGP ( 7 JGP’s)
    The 4th-6th place finishing Nations are entitled to send 1 entry to each JGP ( 7)
    The 7th-10th place nations are entitled to send 1 entry to 6 events
    Nations that qualified a skater to skate the FP can enter 1 competitor in 5 events
    Nations whose skaters placed 25-30 in the SP can enter 1 competitor in 4 events

    I think I got it from the JGP series announcement or the World Junior announcement.
    Sylvia and Skateparent like this.
  12. Skateparent

    Skateparent Member

    Thank you. That makes sense now. I incorrectly thought there were 6 JGPs but that's the number for GP.
  13. aftershocks

    aftershocks Well-Known Member

    :lol: :respec: I've been having a blast reading Adam Rippon's recent posts on Twitter...

    I especially enjoy Adam's shout-outs to his fave inspiring ladies in honor of Women's Day (March 8)! Included are photos of Adam's Mom, sisters and friends?, Ashley Wagner, Molly Oberstar, Madison Hubbell, Alexa Knierim; and Adam in separate photos with Mirai, Gracie, Mao Asada, Madison Chock, Meryl Davis, Kaitlyn Weaver, Polina Edmunds, Valentina Marchei, Molly Oberstar & friend, and a female pug?).

    Heal well Adam!

    Last edited: Mar 19, 2017
    Sasha'sSpins and aemeraldrainc like this.
  14. Dobre

    Dobre Well-Known Member

    Things are about to get tougher on the ladies JGP. Korea may now send twice as many athletes. And with two more of their top six finishers from Senior Nationals now likely old enough to compete on the Junior Grand Prix, they have athletes to challenge & fill those spots. I hope Vivien Le is healthy this coming season.
    haribobo and Willin like this.
  15. aftershocks

    aftershocks Well-Known Member

    ^^ The depth is only getting deeper. But are the competitive opportunities increasing as exponentially as the depth of talent in all disciplines? :COP:
  16. Dobre

    Dobre Well-Known Member

    I don't follow all the disciplines well enough to answer that question, but opportunities increased this year in dance because there was a need. The change from eight to ten spots on the GP meant athletes with an SB ranking as far down as 32nd received invitations to two events. (FYI, Pogrebinsky & Benoit were team #31 and are now team #17 so I would say that is a good argument that there is enough depth to validate the invitations). Without the change, teams ranked as high as 7th & 8th--as well as either host or guaranteed placements--would not have been guaranteed.

    There are also all the challenger series fields & senior B fields that are open to larger fields. Dancers are not invited to as many senior B events as singles skaters, but the limitations at the moment aren't due to a lack of events. The opportunities to compete exist. However, it is a challenge for teams in different countries to receive multiple invitations to senior international events. My interpretation is that this is more of an issue of funding on a federation by federation basis than of opportunity.

    It is a definite advantage to attend multiple dance events throughout the season. Athletes improve & adjust throughout the year. Less experienced dance teams who competed multiple times (I've been tracking those moving up from juniors to seniors) showed growth of 10-25 points during the season, while teams that only received one invitation had no opportunity to show their growth internationally.
    clairecloutier likes this.
  17. aftershocks

    aftershocks Well-Known Member

    ^^ Thanks for responding. It is a complicated issue I think because not enough attention is paid to assessing the competition structure in order to make beneficial changes in a thoughtful, forward thinking way that might help bring figure skating more into the 21st-century. The increasing depth of talent far over-reaches the competitive opportunities that are provided to athletes. The ISU is looking for ways to reduce the costs of organizing major events. One of those ways has been limiting the number of entries, at a time when increased depth (e.g. in pairs) cries out for more entry spots to be made available.

    A big part of athlete development is providing enough competitive opportunities for growth experiences. It's a tough sport, made even tougher by the difficulty in obtaining sufficient funding, the political aspects of the scoring system, and the complicated politics of athlete selection for events.

    Yet still skaters enter the sport for the love of skating, and they continue to dream.
  18. AxelAnnie

    AxelAnnie Well-Known Member

    How much would it cost to put in another flight of skaters at
    each event? Maybe 10%. Seems worth it to me.
  19. Sylvia

    Sylvia Onto EUROS!

    I did a count and 29 different U.S. ladies have competed internationally this season (Tennell competed once in senior and once in junior).

    SENIOR (13 ladies total)
    Grand Prix (6 competed on GP): Wagner, Gold, Nagasu, Chen & Hicks twice, Bell once (WD: Edmunds twice, Pierce, Wang)
    ISU Challengers (5 in addition to the 6 GP ladies): Bell 3 times, Nagasu, Chen & Glenn twice each; Chan, Rydberg, Chiera & Tennell once each (Wang WD)
    Senior B after Nationals: Zhang, Wang
    4CC: Nagasu (Wagner WD), Bell, Chen
    Worlds: Wagner, Chen, Bell

    JUNIOR (11 ladies total)
    7 on JGP: Paganini, Wessenberg, Noullet, McIsaac, Lin, Hong, Ouellette (WD: Beavers, Kim)
    Golden Bear: Andrews, Kim
    Challenge Cup: Ma
    Jr. Worlds: Tennell, Andrews (Glenn WD)

    NOVICE (6 ladies total)
    Golden Bear: Nguyen, Shin, Kalyan
    Bavarian Open: Cui, Huang
    Challenge Cup: Nguyen (again, after she won the Junior national title), Harrell
    Last edited: Mar 20, 2017
  20. haribobo

    haribobo Well-Known Member

    I think going senior is the best move for Tessa at this point. It is really easy to drown in a junior field or at least finish low enough to not get a 2nd event. And bombing in a junior event seems sort of harder to bounce back from than bombing a senior event. There are plenty of senior B opportunities to go around, and that may be much more exciting to look forward to, in addition to much greater visibility and status bonus if you do well. Medaling in a senior B is often as simple as beating out Joshi or something. Not that hard to do.

    With Starr, Huang (age?), Cui (age?), Kim, Kaitlyn, Emmy, and Alexia, you already have 7 spots filled. Maybe we get lucky and another 1 or 2 goes our way, but still that is not a lot to spread around.
  21. eurodance2001

    eurodance2001 Well-Known Member

    Satoko's withdrawal makes it a bit easier for US ladies to keep 3 spots; Rika Hongo has been struggling all season and suffers from downgrades.. Hopefully all US ladies can bring it when it counts..
  22. Sylvia

    Sylvia Onto EUROS!

    Angelina Huang and Ting Cui are 14 (both will turn 15 after July 1). Is "Kim" supposed to be Ashley Lin? Ashley Kim WD from the Junior Ladies event at Nationals.
    haribobo and Josh78 like this.
  23. aftershocks

    aftershocks Well-Known Member

    A nice number, but still a difficult process under current competition structure to effectively and fairly manage the selection process.

    Plus, it's also the number of events each individual skater has the opportunity to participate in that matters.
  24. Chemistry66

    Chemistry66 Well-Known Member

    Since the three countries in category A (Russia/Japan/South Korea) are likely to use all their 14 total JGP spots, it'll be interesting to see if any of the countries in B (1 spot per 7 events) or C (1 spot per 6 events) give up spots since the USA is still first in line for unused spots. After Kazakhstan took full advantage of their rightfully earned slate of spots this season, I'm not expecting much.
  25. haribobo

    haribobo Well-Known Member

    Thanks, and yes, oops.
  26. pinky166

    pinky166 #teamtrainwreck #teamgrease

    Yeah Nathan was dealing with that for years. Anna Pogo too! So there's hope for Tessa.

    Vincent had a pretty serious injury a couple years ago but I don't think it was OS
    Frida80 likes this.
  27. Marco

    Marco Well-Known Member

    She is likely to score a Skate America invite (and ofcourse, a SLC fall int'l invite) if they care about her enough to give special approval for Frank to take her on again.
  28. haribobo

    haribobo Well-Known Member

    Which of Angela Wang and Caroline Zhang gets left out in the cold for SA in that instance? There is also Bradie Tennell to consider, and perhaps Vivian Le. I hope summer results are considered because its hard to call at this point.
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  29. icellist

    icellist Active Member

    As of 21-Mar-2017

    US Ladies World Standings
    05 3468 Ashley Wagner
    07 3370 Mirai Nagasu
    09 3303 Gracie Gold
    16 2366 Karen Chen
    30 1877 Mariah Bell
    32 1734 Courtney Hicks
    36 1664 Polina Edmunds
    55 1076 Angela Wang
    73 0834 Tyler Pierce
    74 0827 Amber Glenn
    80 0767 Bradie Tennell
    147 312 Tessa Hong
    163 225 Caroline Zhang

    US Ladies 2016-2017 Season's Best
    12 196.44 Ashley WAGNER
    14 194.95 Mirai NAGASU
    20 191.59 Mariah BELL
    28 184.22 Gracie GOLD
    30 183.60 Amber GLENN
    31 182.98 Courtney HICKS
    39 179.39 Karen CHEN
    48 168.98 Bradie TENNELL

    Top 24 in WS and SB are given priority for GP slots
    Ashley will get 2 assignments for placing top 10 at Worlds
    Mirai is almost guaranteed 2 assignments from WS and SB
    Gracie, Karen, Mariah are guaranteed at least 1 from either WS or SB
    * Karen and Mariah can guarantee 2 assignments be placing top 10 at Worlds or better their chances by raising their SB (Karen) or WS (Mariah)

    Courtney is not guaranteed any assignment but will be high on the alternates list. I think she will get at least one

    If Gracie only received 1 assignment at the beginning, SkAm will be hers (with Karen)
    If Polina chooses to return, she is high up on USFSA radar to get SkAm
    USFSA probably will not bother giving Courtney the SkAm slot because of her alternate position
    USFSA will most likely give CS to Gracie, Polina, Courtney, Angela, Amber, Bradie, Caroline (that's 7 already without the 1-4 at nationals)

    I highly doubt Tessa will get SkAm.
    Sasha'sSpins, b-man, Dobre and 2 others like this.
  30. Frida80

    Frida80 Well-Known Member

    Great post. It's also important to note that Karen is relatively unknown. USFS will want a strong name to headline the event. Which is why Gracie is most likely to get the spot. If Polina is strong in the summer, they definitely give it to her. Tessa's only shot at international placements is a CS and even that is low given how so many ladies will want spots.
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