U.S. Ice Dance 2020-21 season news & updates

sap5 said:
VM's Carmen FD and Finnstep SD were choreographed by off-ice choreographers, but really, the hardest part of choreographing is making off-ice dance work on-ice. So much of what is choreographed off-ice doesn't work when you bring it on-ice. That's where Marina excels.

Plus, before Carmen and that Finnstep, VM worked with Marina for years on programs she developed from ground up, so I don't think those examples show that she can't choreograph from the ground up.

I'm not sure if the Shibs situation was that she was at a loss as to how to choreograph for them, or that the Shibs themselves had a particular vision and direction they wanted to go in, and she stepped back to let them run with it. Maybe a combo of both? What made you think they took the reins because Marina was failing them?

As for DW, I probably will get hate for this, but I think DW's skills were limited, and their Olympic FD choreography made the best out of what they could do.
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That's my point. Other ice dance coaches/choreographers do much more masterful jobs at choreographing visions off-ice to on-ice. Even when choreographers can become oversaturated, they still do a better job than what I've seen from Marina. And that's my opinion. She's great at finishing programs and polishing them to make them go to the next level, but I don't think she's good at actual constructing an ice dance program from scratch just based on past programs I've seen from her. I think her dance vocabulary is much more limited than say, Pasquale, Carol Lane, Marie-France/Patrice, etc. and it shows in her programs.

As for the Shibs, the fact that they had to go on their own to find success says a lot. They felt pressured to do so because it simply wasn't working with just Marina. I never saw an ice dance team that had to take so much on their own other than possibly V/M during their last seasons with Marina.
 
VGThuy said:
That's my point. Other ice dance coaches/choreographers do much more masterful jobs at choreographing visions off-ice to on-ice. Even when choreographers can become oversaturated, they still do a better job than what I've seen from Marina. And that's my opinion. She's great at finishing programs and polishing them to make them go to the next level, but I don't think she's good at actual constructing an ice dance program from scratch just based on past programs I've seen from her. I think her dance vocabulary is much more limited than say, Pasquale, Carol Lane, Marie-France/Patrice, etc. and it shows in her programs.

As for the Shibs, the fact that they had to go on their own to find success says a lot. They felt pressured to do so because it simply wasn't working with just Marina. I never saw an ice dance team that had to take so much on their own other than possibly V/M during their last seasons with Marina.
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Would you please link me to something where they talked about that pressure? I'm interested in learning more about what they thought.

ETA: I had the impression that the Shibs took all that on because they wanted to take it on, not because they felt that they had to take it on. But would love to learn more.
 
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sap5 said:
Would you please link me to something where they talked about that pressure? I'm interested in learning more about what they thought.

ETA: I had the impression that the Shibs took all that on because they wanted to take it on, not because they felt that they had to take it on. But would love to learn more.
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They never said anything as negatively as I put it, but the picture I got was that Alex and Maia "found themselves", which is a good thing, but by "finding themselves" they had to really put Marina in position where she had less say creatively. Honestly, if Marina was able to make programs that were winning them gold medals, they would have been less likely inclined to rock the boat, as most people would be. Remember, once Igor left, the Shibs went from World bronze medalists in their debut senior season to almost missing the third Olympic spot in Sochi and then stagnating and being frustrated. They talked about their frustrations and having downs a lot before they "found themselves".

They relied on her for her coaching and her team and her eyes (and maybe politick). Of course, they don't say that and they are very positive towards her (as almost all Marina students are...I've notice there's this maternal dynamic going on), it's just based on me being a super fan since they were juniors and watching their career unfold since then and just how off-the-beaten-path it's been. A lot of Shibs fans during the Olympic year worried that Maia and Alex were relying too much on themselves and didn't have someone like Carol Lane or Marie-France who had a strong sense of dance to really re-work their dances, but Maia and Alex were able to revamp their second Coldplay FD before the team event in Pyongchang.

Here's an article I found where they discuss making their programs and what led to it and how they had a rough ride:


If you Google "Shibutani" and "taking ownership", you'll see a bunch of results about taking control over the creative process.
 
VGThuy said:
They never said anything as negatively as I put it, but the picture I got was that Alex and Maia "found themselves", which is a good thing, but by "finding themselves" they had to really put Marina in position where she had less say creatively. Honestly, if Marina was able to make programs that were winning them gold medals, they would have been less likely inclined to rock the boat, as most people would be. Remember, once Igor left, the Shibs went from World bronze medalists in their debut senior season to almost missing the third Olympic spot in Sochi and then stagnating and being frustrated. They talked about their frustrations and having downs a lot before they "found themselves".

They relied on her for her coaching and her team and her eyes (and maybe politick). Of course, they don't say that and they are very positive towards her (as almost all Marina students are...I've notice there's this maternal dynamic going on), it's just based on me being a super fan since they were juniors and watching their career unfold since then and just how off-the-beaten-path it's been. A lot of Shibs fans during the Olympic year worried that Maia and Alex were relying too much on themselves and didn't have someone like Carol Lane or Marie-France who had a strong sense of dance to really re-work their dances, but Maia and Alex were able to revamp their second Coldplay FD before the team event in Pyongchang.

Here's an article I found where they discuss making their programs and what led to it and how they had a rough ride:


If you Google "Shibutani" and "taking ownership", you'll see a bunch of results about taking control over the creative process.
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Thanks! There was definitely that period of time between world podium appearances where it seemed like the Shibs were languishing.
 
Now I'm just wasting time instead of focusing on what I need to get done today :) but can you tell me why the Shibs finished so far down at Worlds the two years after they won bronze? Was there an injury?
 
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sap5 said:
Now I'm just wasting time instead of focusing on what I need to get done today :) but can you tell me why the Shibs finished so far down at Worlds the two years after they won bronze? Was there an injury?
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I think it was a combination of several things that pushed them down. Some might say there was pushback for them winning bronze in their first worlds over more seasoned teams (granted the fall in the F/D by Bourzat helped them get on the podium). After that I think it was a matter of hitting levels. As much as they are noted for being twizzle masters and technicians, they had a tendency to miss levels here and there on lifts and steps. Alex was injured in the 2012(?) Rostelecom GP. He biffed their twizzles at worlds in 2012 as well, costing them big points and placements. By the time the 13-14 Olympic season rolled around, they had slipped to US #3, so they had to make up ground the next few seasons, which is tough in Ice Dance.

I'm saying all this as a big Shibs fan! I'm so proud of how they found themselves and rebounded beginning in the 2015-16 season. Their SD/RD's of the entire quad were outstanding and best in class.
 
In theory, they could train in Montreal/Toronto for 5 months and 29 days, and live/train in the US for at least 6 months. She would still be eligeable for citizenship that way. I have friends that managed this crazy temporary situation. So, a partnership with Gadbois in not completely out of the picture. It should not be option A, but Lane (Toronto)-Kerr (Florida) partnership could work if they really want to be creative.
 
sap5 said:
Now I'm just wasting time instead of focusing on what I need to get done today :) but can you tell me why the Shibs finished so far down at Worlds the two years after they won bronze? Was there an injury?
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I know Alex made a huge mistake on his twizzles at 2012 Worlds FD but they were 7th in the OD being about 4 points from 4th. Their bronze medal in 2011 was a surprise but they were high enough to take advantage of mistakes. Then Igor left when they were still developing and I think that hurt them a lot actually.

One big thing was that their programs also weren't exciting people. It got to the point where they were losing to teams who made major errors because they weren't maximizing levels despite having the SS to do so nor were they getting the GOEs and PCS to be an actual medal contender.

They were probably waiting for the 2014-15 season to see what would happen once D/W and V/M left Canton and they became the no. 1. The 2014-15 season happened and although Barcelona loved them at the GPF, their results were not great and their scores were ways behind. They also lost Cup of China to a "new" fresh team that was taking the ice dance world by storm by the name of Papadakis/Cizeron. At the time, people were "shocked" and so happy P/C were able to beat the Shibs. Then they missed the final group to the new and exciting team of Ilynkh/Zhignanshin but was able to climb back up to fifth. It looked like Chock/Bates were going to be the no. 1 team for the next four years leading up to Pyeongchang and they would have no chance to move up if they kept competing. They then contemplated retiring, but Denis Ten invited them to do his show in Kazakhstan and they spoke to other skaters there and Maxim Trankov gave them advice and reminded them how young they were. That's when they decided to take matters into their own hands.
 
kirkbiggestfan said:
In theory, they could train in Montreal/Toronto for 5 months and 29 days, and live/train in the US for at least 6 months. She would still be eligeable for citizenship that way. I have friends that managed this crazy temporary situation. So, a partnership with Gadbois in not completely out of the picture. It should not be option A, but Lane (Toronto)-Kerr (Florida) partnership could work if they really want to be creative.
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I really am curious about what their new set-up will be.

Despite qualms with Gadbois and getting a bit bored of everyone being coached by the same team, I can see why it could be a good choice for them in theory. 1) Being amongst top teams would give them someone to look up to training wise every day which they haven't had since (both) C/B teams left in 2018, 2) I wonder if the pandemic has influenced this decision - being in a smaller group could be quite isolating and Gadbois does always seem like a really sociable yet competitive environment and being so far from both of their families must've been hard, 3) post-2022, there will be a lot of retirements so I imagine Gadbois will be looking to pre-emptively rebuild their 'portfolio', 4) Training with La/La would push both teams (I personally see them as their top competition, mostly because their careers have kind of been parallel with each other).

Whatever happens, I hope they find a new home that pushes them to get better in the areas they need to and that they have a happy and healthy training environment.
 
sap5 said:
Who has Platov worked with recently? I been out of the loop for a while now.
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Since moving from New Jersey to Florida, I think that Evgeny's only full-time competitive team has been a young team representing Kazakhstan, Maxine Weatherby (19) and Tima Yerzhanov (24). They finished in 16th place (last) at the 2020 Four Continents and would have competed at Worlds if it had been held. They remained eligible for both competitions this year as well and at this point they should on track to make their debut at 2021 Worlds. I believe that he's done some one-off choreography for other couples and singles skaters, I know he did a couple programs at 2020 US Nationals.

I believe that Evgeny's last stint as a national team-level coach was for England where his most successful team as primary coach was Sinead and John Kerr, who peaked at 3rd at Europeans (2011), 4th at the Grand Prix Finals (2010), 5th at Worlds (2010) and 8th at the Olympics (2010). So he's taken a couple fairly high on his own in the past. Of course, his collaborations with Tarasova :TT1: (Chait & Sakhnvovsky) and Zhulin have given him a strong coaching background to go along with his two Olympic golds and four World golds.

His rink is only a little over two hours away from Zoueva's in South Florida (he's on the Atlantic, she's on the Gulf Coast), so there could be collaboration opportunities with her if Carreira & Ponomarenko or other top teams ever move there.
 
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I also want to add something as I now feel like I've sounded extremely harsh to Marina. She did save The Shib's "Fix You" program after Nepela. That's why I feel strongly that she's very good as polishing and editing because she can make a program go to the next level needed to be a winning one when she's inspired. That's just as important of a step as any.
 
VGThuy said:
I also want to add something as I now feel like I've sounded extremely harsh to Marina. She did save The Shib's "Fix You" program after Nepela. That's why I feel strongly that she's very good as polishing and editing because she can make a program go to the next level needed to be a winning one when she's inspired. That's just as important of a step as any.
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Sorry - meant this for a private message, but I'll edit and reply.

Did Marina save it? I thought it was Alex's idea to build in bridge with the Scientist and rework some of the choreo? I don't recall exactly.
 
SidelineSkater said:
Sorry - meant this for a private message, but I'll edit and reply.

Did Marina save it? I thought it was Alex's idea to build in bridge with the Scientist and rework some of the choreo? I don't recall exactly.
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Was it? Even if the music change was Alex's idea, I do think she and the Canton team did extensive work to re-choreograph that whole dance. They not only added "The Scientist" to the circular section but added a totally new lift, re-arranged the elements, and altered a lot of the body positions and movement using Peter's original choreography as the foundation to build from.
 
VGThuy said:
I know Alex made a huge mistake on his twizzles at 2012 Worlds FD but they were 7th in the OD being about 4 points from 4th. Their bronze medal in 2011 was a surprise but they were high enough to take advantage of mistakes. Then Igor left when they were still developing and I think that hurt them a lot actually.

One big thing was that their programs also weren't exciting people. It got to the point where they were losing to teams who made major errors because they weren't maximizing levels despite having the SS to do so nor were they getting the GOEs and PCS to be an actual medal contender.

They were probably waiting for the 2014-15 season to see what would happen once D/W and V/M left Canton and they became the no. 1. The 2014-15 season happened and although Barcelona loved them at the GPF, their results were not great and their scores were ways behind. They also lost Cup of China to a "new" fresh team that was taking the ice dance world by storm by the name of Papadakis/Cizeron. At the time, people were "shocked" and so happy P/C were able to beat the Shibs. Then they missed the final group to the new and exciting team of Ilynkh/Zhignanshin but was able to climb back up to fifth. It looked like Chock/Bates were going to be the no. 1 team for the next four years leading up to Pyeongchang and they would have no chance to move up if they kept competing. They then contemplated retiring, but Denis Ten invited them to do his show in Kazakhstan and they spoke to other skaters there and Maxim Trankov gave them advice and reminded them how young they were. That's when they decided to take matters into their own hands.
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Thanks for the detailed post. This sounds more like a technical issue rather than a program/choreography issue to me. Once Igor left, the tech skills of Marina's teams all went down. Especially during that time they were working with Margaglio.
 
Anthony's parents live in Florida now, so if C/P are going to Marina I think it's fair to assume that they'll be involved in some way. Of course they could be going somewhere else entirely.

I think it'll be interesting to have a fresh pair of eyes on them, regardless of where they end up.
 
I mentioned this in the Dance discussion in the Trash Can but Anthony posted an IG story earlier tonight of a gorgeous sunset on a white-sand beach. Make of that what you will.
 
At the Senior Championships, the top three teams mentioned at the Press Conferences they were going home to visit families after the event before returning to Montreal to begin training for Worlds. Evan Bates in particular mentioned not seeing family in over a year. I'm sure Christina and Anthony, who had planned to compete in Las Vegas, had made similar plans.
 
I still don't really understand the logistics of this for the near-term given quarantine requirements, but on a coaching level this could be a big win for both them and Scott, who immediately gets a high-profile team as a flagship for the school.
 
mackiecat said:
They now will train close enough to the US border to return every weekend so she can keep her residency requirements in check. 1 hour drive to Port Huron crossing.
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But you can't do that, at present. The only people allowed to cross the border without quarantining are people like truck drivers who are performing essential services. Christina for now is in the same position as any of the other American skaters who train in Canada; any trip to the US means a two-week quarantine on return.
 
sap5 said:
Thanks for the detailed post. This sounds more like a technical issue rather than a program/choreography issue to me. Once Igor left, the tech skills of Marina's teams all went down. Especially during that time they were working with Margaglio.
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Do you mean Massimo Scali? I thought Scali was a great asset to the Shibs. I wasn't aware that Margaglio worked with them.
 
I’m guessing C/P will take a big chunk of time in Canada first, then find a summer training base in USA for awhile and hope that quarantine requirements will be done with by late summer/Fall when they return to Canada.
 
I'd be interested to know what the sequence of events was here. Because obviously I.A.M. Ontario wasn't public knowledge, but this was all set up in advance, so did Christina & Anthony sound Scott out first whether he might be transitioning to coaching permanently (which admittedly wouldn't have been that hard to predict), or did he (or Marie-France) steal them from Igor?
 
Debbie S said:
Official C/P coaching change announcement (Scott Moir/IAM): https://www.usfigureskating.org/news/press-release/carreira-and-ponomarenko-announce-coaching-change
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I wonder if this will be a stepping stone type situation? Like a way to get their foot in the door with MF at the main IAM campus. When IAM mentioned their new campus it sounded like it was for younger teams. So, it makes me wonder if after Beijing, when some teams retire, C/P will go to the main campus. Either way, good luck to them! It sounds like a good situation as Scott seems to enjoy coaching and have a lot of energy and time to devote to them. Though it does make me remember the time K/K went to Savchenko after the 2018 Olympics. Hopefully with a super experienced coaching team over the entire IAM school, everything will go smoothly for C/P.
 
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