The Skating Lesson

[VGThuy]

Some of Dave and Jonathan’s tweets about the Shibs have been downright nasty. They were incredibly gleeful when they lost Nationals. It was beyond being happy for their faves, H/D. Jonathan had the audacity to make fun of Maia for having a puffy face during the gala (enjoying that she may have been crying earlier in the day) when he should be the last person making fun of others for crying considering his public breakdown in Grenoble.

 

[berthesghost]

Yeah, their inability to keep stumpf about their petty feuds is really what makes them seem unprofessional and increasingly irrelevant. Gossip is one thing, using your job as “payback” for a slight is another. That, and their inability to edit themselves down to anything approaching listenable is what will be their undoing. Nobody but the hardest core fan girls have over an hour to give to rambling musings in this day and age.

 

[Tavi]

They occasionally provide analysis on skating techniques in their review videos, although less so since Jenny's departure. I am not hating on TSL. In fact, I believe Dave is truly passionate about figure skating. Though he might not be that knowledgeable in the technical aspects, he has a deep knowledge of skating history and an appreciation of skating aesthetics. He truly shines when he is giving his opinions on the latter two but tend to be a little out of his depth when trying to give analysis on the former. Skating has very few news/opinion outlets so I appreciate the ones we do have.

So I agree with a lot of what you say, although since I know Dave is (or was) an adult skater, I think he does have a technical knowledge base. In the recaps, though, he sometimes throws in conclusory comments (eg, so and so has terrible SS) that don’t seem very incisive (and/or that I disagree with. ).

Since Jenny left, the recaps have been far longer and less structured - more stream of consciousness - than they used to be, which I personally find less interesting and enjoyable, although I do still listen to them. I also feel like gossip and innuendo is more pervasive than it was in the old show. That’s not to say Dave and Jenny didn’t gossip on the old show, just that the gossip didn’t seem ever present as it does now.

I do find it interesting when Jonathan draws parallels between skating and opera (though I don’t always agree when he says skater x is “so musical”. ).

Truthfully, I was really impressed with their recent Mark Mitchell interview, and I wish Dave would consider bringing back a little of the structure and feeling of that interview to the recaps. But my sense is that both of these guys are very busy IRL, so they may not have time to adequately prepare for “serious” recaps each week. As annoyed as I sometimes get with the current iteration of TSL, though, I do appreciate the effort Dave and Jonathan make to keep the show running.

 

[Loves_Shizuka]

I do often wonder if Dave even actually likes figure skating though. No one is really good enough for him.

He strikes me as possibly the kind of person who doesn't really "like" many things.

 

[Rafter]

Some of Dave and Jonathan’s tweets about the Shibs have been downright nasty. They were incredibly gleeful when they lost Nationals. It was beyond being happy for their faves, H/D. Jonathan had the audacity to make fun of Maia for having a puffy face during the gala (enjoying that she may have been crying earlier in the day) when he should be the last person making fun of others for crying considering his public breakdown in Grenoble.

Why do you think this is? Because they’ve heard nasty things about the Shibs/their parents? Because they don’t like brother/sister teams? Why?

 

[VGThuy]

Who knows? The Shibs aren’t the only ones that they dislike and they have their hit list. In Dave’s case, it seems to be fluid and change depending on whether a skater gives him the time of day. He’s also a huge H/D and P/C fan so that may go into it.

For all the talk about the Shibs and their parents on the forum, they have a lot of support and friends in the community. I’m sure not everyone likes them but that’s true for everybody who has ever existed. I get people want to start something by bringing that up though because it sounds fun and juicy, like thinking Alex was acting dangerously towards Maia at Nationals...

 

[Willin]

@Rafter There was some sort of drama between them a couple years back. It was another case of Dave being rude or over-dramatic about something publicly and then the Shibs (maybe Alex) addressing it privately.

That seems to be a lot of the cases and why TSL comes out looking better: Dave will say something that pisses the skater off, and then the skater or their parent will only address it privately, and then Dave won't address the specific problem publicly (beyond some possible vague hints about someone saying something "rude" to him), and then Dave starts trashing that skater/team at every chance. Sometimes the specific reason leaks out, but I don't know if it did in this case?

For instance, there were rumors that the Kori Ade drama/trashing 7K and her skaters came after Kori got really pissed off about some of the things they were saying. Kori was one of his "sources" for years when Jenny was on the show, and then when Jenny left and things got really nasty she stopped being a "source" for Dave. Upon her telling him privately that she would not give him any more information, Dave started hating on all her and her skaters in a nasty way as opposed to a more constructive way. Again - just a rumor that leaked out about the situation, but it makes a lot of sense.

 

[arakwafan2006]

Jonathan had the audacity to make fun of Maia for having a puffy face during the gala (enjoying that she may have been crying earlier in the day) when he should be the last person making fun of others for crying considering his public breakdown in Grenoble.

PREACH!!! Big grown ass crying in the bathroom. Rohene Ward would have been the one in tears... not me. I'll leave it at that....

 

[arakwafan2006]

So I agree with a lot of what you say, although since I know Dave is (or was) an adult skater, I think he does have a technical knowledge base. In the recaps, though, he sometimes throws in conclusory comments (eg, so and so has terrible SS) that don’t seem very incisive (and/or that I disagree with.

Dave Lease's skating ability could best be described as being what you'd expect of someone with a disability. I actually thought that he was for a long time after watching clips of him ( John Wilson gifted Gold Seals to he and Jenny... those blades were WAY too aggressive for his level of skating). He has a working knowledge of things that he cannot actually do, not even just multi rotational jumps but counters, rockers etc. It doesn't mean that he's not right! It means that his opinion is no better than someone that learned different moves because announcers over the years have broken them down.

 

[arakwafan2006]

@Rafter There was some sort of drama between them a couple years back. It was another case of Dave being rude or over-dramatic about something publicly and then the Shibs (maybe Alex) addressing it privately.

That seems to be a lot of the cases and why TSL comes out looking better: Dave will say something that pisses the skater off, and then the skater or their parent will only address it privately, and then Dave won't address the specific problem publicly (beyond some possible vague hints about someone saying something "rude" to him), and then Dave starts trashing that skater/team at every chance. Sometimes the specific reason leaks out, but I don't know if it did in this case?

For instance, there were rumors that the Kori Ade drama/trashing 7K and her skaters came after Kori got really pissed off about some of the things they were saying. Kori was one of his "sources" for years when Jenny was on the show, and then when Jenny left and things got really nasty she stopped being a "source" for Dave. Upon her telling him privately that she would not give him any more information, Dave started hating on all her and her skaters in a nasty way as opposed to a more constructive way. Again - just a rumor that leaked out about the situation, but it makes a lot of sense.

It's believable.

 

[arakwafan2006]

Why do you think this is? Because they’ve heard nasty things about the Shibs/their parents? Because they don’t like brother/sister teams? Why?

The Shibutani's have managed to accomplish significant things given that they cannot explore genre's that other teams can. I mean, the Rhumba... I LOVE it LOL. It's nothing like anyone else’s but they managed to be a little cheesy in a likeable way, if that makes sense. I think that they don’t like that the feelings that you get from watching Maia and Alex are not the same ones you get from watching a sensual team. That said, the Italian’s don’t really portray love or anything salacious either. The number 1 critique they have and in fairness, i have to concur with is that Maia and Alex never “ let it fly” emotionally. It’s soooooo scaled back and controlled and non lyrical. They are so classic and clean in their style and they won’t take emotional risks. The reason why “fix you” worked so well at nationals is because they let go a little and it was the first time it happened. It was almost like they didn’t mean to.

 

[gkelly]

Dave Lease's skating ability could best be described as being what you'd expect of someone with a disability.

I've seen some of Lease's skating online. It could best be described as typical of someone who started skating as an adult, or who returned as an adult after only reaching a low level as a kid. I don't know his skating history.

Speaking as an adult skater with a similar skill level, I take offense at your characterization.

 

[bardtoob]

Dave Lease's skating ability could best be described as being what you'd expect of someone with a disability.

... That is so cruel ... ... So mean ...

 

[giselle23]

Dave Lease's skating ability could best be described as being what you'd expect of someone with a disability. I actually thought that he was for a long time after watching clips of him ( John Wilson gifted Gold Seals to he and Jenny... those blades were WAY too aggressive for his level of skating). He has a working knowledge of things that he cannot actually do, not even just multi rotational jumps but counters, rockers etc. It doesn't mean that he's not right! It means that his opinion is no better than someone that learned different moves because announcers over the years have broken them down.

I think Dave's skating is fine for someone who started as an adult. You should see mine--LOL!

 

[SCeline]

In my opinion, TSL targeting the Shibs likely stems from an unfortunate misinterpretation on Dave Lease's part from a situation that was not even created by either the Shibs or Lease, but by one of his guests and fan reaction. From what I can tell, the Shibs have never had anything against TSL. In extended interviews, Alex has said how they are big fans of some pretty opinionated podcasters and Youtubers in sports and entertainment. When Lease was backstage at Skate America 2016, TSL was interviewing Marina Zoueva, and Alex jumped in. He played to the camera and helped make the interview fun. In his Skate America preview, Lease even went so far as to call them "smart" in their strategy for that season.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ReHMsQ4QYjI

My sense is, the problem started when a TSL's guest, Mark Hanretty, insinuated negatives if I recall about the Shibs character. It wasn't the Shibs themselves from what I could tell, but it was the Shibs' FANS who then went berserk on TSL. There were critical comments of Hanretty on social media including on the TSL facebook page including from of all places a Russian skating fan. The whole thing was just strange. Never seemed to bother the Shibs though. There are tools and one can decode whether as verified, they for example "liked" any critical tweets, or anything like that. But they did not. In fact, they didn't seem to pay any attention to it, at all. TSL on the other hand, seemed to think that the way to respond to the heat they were getting from Shibs FANS, was to take it out on the Shibs themselves. The tweet about team event was just another sneaky example. Presenting information in "just a certain way" knowing it would "trigger" certain people to turn against them. It worked. Some FSU posts announcing they would "now root for other teams."

At the end of the day, though the whole thing seems pointless. I think some of TSL's interviews with skaters and choreographers are quite interesting. Given the unique path that the Shibs have taken with their career, a long-form interview would have gotten TSL views for sure. It's actually kind of sad because when I think of all the skaters who "get" the culture of podcasts, it's actually the Shibs, who have shown that they are cool, calm characters when it comes to navigating skeptics, as they have had to do so their entire career. Maybe it could have been helpful to TSL, partnering with savvy skaters instead of crapping all over them.

 

[Willin]

@SCeline I could definitely believe that played a part in it. It seems like Dave is willing to 180 his opinion on a skater the second one of the few people he respects says something negative/positive about a skater.

 

[MAXSwagg]

It is also known that Hanretty skews things based on the skaters he works with/who are apart of that rink.

 

[Barbara Manatee]

The tweet about team event was just another sneaky example. Presenting information in "just a certain way" knowing it would "trigger" certain people to turn against them. It worked. Some FSU posts announcing they would "now root for other teams."

You give TSL way too much influence. People aren't suddenly planning to root for other dance teams in the individual event because of what or how Dave tweeted. Most of us just want to see the medals spread around because we're fans of all 3 couples.

 

[Debbie S]

Dave Lease's skating ability could best be described as being what you'd expect of someone with a disability.

What @gkelly said. Maybe you should watch some adult skating (IN has Adult Nats in its archives) or take up skating and see for yourself.

Dave's skating experience makes me even more irritated at his commentary. Having learned the basics himself, he could offer insight on skills/manuevers and why he thinks certain skaters are better than others or why one skater scored higher. But he just wants to bash those skaters who aren't his favorites with blanket insults that tend to be personal (at times commenting on appearance and weight). Or maybe he really doesn't care much about technique.

I missed whatever Hanretty said about the Shibs (did he ever work with them? does he know them well?) but it's not just the Shibs that Dave and Co like to bash - they've been trashing C/B, Ashley, Gracie, Jason, pretty much all Tom Z students.

 

[laviemn]

It is also known that Hanretty skews things based on the skaters he works with/who are apart of that rink.

Which skaters does he work with? I enjoy Hanretty's commentary, and British Eurosport definitely needs him considering the others have admitted they don't know all the rules of IJS, but I'd like to know if he's being biased. I've read similar comments about Chris Howarth favoring skaters who've trained at his Chicago rink.

 

[MAXSwagg]

What @gkelly said. Maybe you should watch some adult skating (IN has Adult Nats in its archives) or take up skating and see for yourself.

Dave's skating experience makes me even more irritated at his commentary. Having learned the basics himself, he could offer insight on skills/manuevers and why he thinks certain skaters are better than others or why one skater scored higher. But he just wants to bash those skaters who aren't his favorites with blanket insults that tend to be personal (at times commenting on appearance and weight). Or maybe he really doesn't care much about technique.

I missed whatever Hanretty said about the Shibs (did he ever work with them? does he know them well?) but it's not just the Shibs that Dave and Co like to bash - they've been trashing C/B, Ashley, Gracie, Jason, pretty much all Tom Z students.

I agree. Early on, he (with Jenny) would expand on his opinions from a technical standpoint (at least in the extent of his experience as an adult skater). They rarely do that now.

 

[mackiecat]

What I get about a Jason is they are frustrated that he hasn't gone to a technical jump coach. ( he went to Frank but went with brand new skates to break in last fall) They often praise his skating and spins but seem frustrated with his jumps.. that and his reactions in the Kiss and Cry ( which many other FSU posters also comment about)

 

[livetoskate]

The comments here made me interested in seeing Dave's skating. He looks fairly good for an adult skater here, I'm guessing in the bronze or silver level. But he should thus have some more respect for those skaters he's been dismissing on his show; his own skills are not anything close to those of the people he puts down.
https://youtu.be/cHWkL2NPijE

 

[supergirl573]

The comments here made me interested in seeing Dave's skating. He looks fairly good for an adult skater here, I'm guessing in the bronze or silver level. But he should thus have some more respect for those skaters he's been dismissing on his show; his own skills are not anything close to those of the people he puts down.
https://youtu.be/cHWkL2NPijE

I think Dave is being dismissive in that he regards skaters who refuse to make necessary changes that will put them over the hump (Jason/Patrick/Karen not going to different coaches to improve the issues the technical they are having, Max not focusing on skating skills, and others) as a lost cause. In the cases I have listed, the skater will not improve if they don't change and they seem to expect to achieve when they have stagnated.

 

[Loves_Shizuka]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ikiKbYaF7_w

A preview of Pyeongchang (2 hours)

 

[misskarne]

I think Dave is being dismissive in that he regards skaters who refuse to make necessary changes that will put them over the hump (Jason/Patrick/Karen not going to different coaches to improve the issues the technical they are having, Max not focusing on skating skills, and others) as a lost cause. In the cases I have listed, the skater will not improve if they don't change and they seem to expect to achieve when they have stagnated.

Which shows his brainless idiocy and anyone else who eats that shit up too, because it is very well known that Jason has spent periods of time with Frank Carroll working on his jumps, that Max has worked with other coaches and choreographers on his skating skills (and got himself a spin coach too, who as of 2017 Nats he was working with three times a week), and so on.

But that doesn't fit Lease's bitchy little narrative, so he ignores actual facts.

 

[aftershocks]

... I do often wonder if Dave even actually likes figure skating though. No one is really good enough for him. He doesn't contrast skaters areas of opportunity with their strength. He crucifies them. He doesn’t seem to understand that following an athlete MEANS watching them go through bad times.

I agree with you, particularly on the bolded part. Dave Lease crucifies skaters if he doesn't like them, or he picks them apart at random sometimes, just because. However, I think Lease is passionate about figure skating and gymnastics. He just appears to have some personality quirks and traits that tend toward enjoying lampooning people and being overly harsh in his commentary & often unnecessarily nasty against those he's commenting on who have done nothing to deserve such harsh and often pointless critiques. Lease has no filters about it, e.g., his vendetta against the Shibs; his comments in the recent broadcast, which some might feel are mild, regarding Bradie Tennell's looks not being packaged in the same way as Gracie looking like Grace Kelly in Sochi, and referencing Tennell looking like a 'Mormon' in the way she wears her hair, etc. Jonathan Beyer seemed to try and counter with how consistent and precise Bradie is, but as usual, Jonathan ended up falling prey to succumbing to most of what Lease had to say throughout the broadcast.

It's one thing to make the Bradie/Gracie comparison, but it strayed too far IMO. And honestly, it's really apropos to nothing. My opinion is that Bradie doesn't need to look like anyone but herself, and neither did Gracie. I wanted to see and get to know more of who Gracie is, and maybe that was part of her struggles: needing to find out who she is and to express her true self confidently on the ice. Bradie enjoys skating to Disney tunes, and so did Tara. What matters for a skater is feeling motivated by what they're skating to and believing in themselves. Lease can tend toward too much OTT presumptuous, 'in-the-know' wink-wink gossip, which seems more like his way of pumping up his own ego. It is sad, because Lease does have some interesting viewpoints. It's just that he's like the boy who cried wolf way too often, and threw a temper tantrum to boot, just to get attention.

TSL does offer some interesting commentary, information and viewpoints mixed in with the crass rambling. Mainly, it's the name-dropping, leaking confidential information and being overly cheeky and/or unnecessarily nasty in some of his critiques that's off-putting about Lease (but again these are probably reasons why some TSL followers love him, with the excuse being that figure skating is a cutthroat world). In a number of instances, Lease goes too far in ways that aren't constructive. I know that many find it funny and gallows-humor scintillating, like the enticement of watching a peep show. But Lease too often crosses a line. Some of the things Lease used to say about Weav/Po for example (and that's when Jenny was still on the show) were just terrible. And then Lease showed up at a comp, passed Andrew Poje backstage, greeted him and expected Andrew to smile and nod. NOT! That's the disconnect: Lease wants to be the bad boy and he wants people to love him. Even Jonathan acting as if he's never once made unnecessarily personal comments about skaters is disingenuous at worst, or else the snarking becomes contagious and Jonathan unconsciously follows Lease's lead.

Well I don't think gossip is inherently mean, unless it's mean gossip. I don't know anyone who doesn't gossip about stuff. So it's nice to know figure skating related gossip from people who have more knowledge of FS than myself, which doesn't take much anyway. I don't watch TSL for FS technical knowledge but for entertainment and I have a dark sense of humor. Haven't been watching it for long but so far haven't heard anything that people should get upset about- are there really any skaters that actually feel they've been discussed too meanly about, unlike in "real journalists" columns, which are often critical too, or do people just suppose they have? Or do performers only want to hear praise and nothing negative?

Yes, quite a few skaters feel that way, I'm sure. There's a difference between being critical about athletic performance and commenting meanly about skaters' personalities, looks, struggles, personal lives, fs politics that impacts skaters, etc. Recent comments about Ash Cain's boyfriend, ummm, maybe some found it harmless and funny. I just think it's too close to crossing a line and in some cases crosses the line to where they're mixing everything and the kitchen sink into skating commentary. Lease would maybe do better if he tamed his ego, practiced more discipline (or if he had time to edit the broadcasts). But yeah, editing and personal discipline aren't my strong suits either. We all live and learn. Or, we don't.

Everything TSL has to say is not gospel, but they tend to act as if it is. Lease may actually have an entertaining shtick that could work much better in a more disciplined format, but he needs a savvy manager or handler to guide and control his excesses. And Jonathan Beyer is not that person. This is my take and my impressions. Everyone can decide to watch or not, or watch and do their own filtering.

 

[ZilphaK]

Deadspin article about Dave Lease and TSL

https://deadspin.com/the-most-controversial-voice-in-figure-skating-cant-sto-1822879133

 

[Willin]

My god that interview made Dave seem like an awful human being. This section in particular made Dave seem like such an attention seeker:

Lease also has a serious lack of filter, which I experienced firsthand while reporting this story. Before we even met in person he shared with me several extremely juicy pieces of figure skating gossip, one of which involved Vladimir Putin. He’d casually send me screengrabs of text conversations he was having with other people, including skaters. When I went to watch Skate America with him in New Jersey, he commented freely on several athletes’ publicly unknown personal dramas, without any apparent eye for the fact that there was a reporter in the room or that we had never gone off the record. (Also, that skater who had the theory about Ashley Wagner’s Ace bandage did not seem to know she was on speakerphone.) Throughout the course of my reporting he checked in several times to ask whom I had interviewed and whether people were giving me good anecdotes about him.

I just... Considering that he was showing them off and making private conversations so blatantly public... How does anyone share anything with him any more? How is he friends with anyone? Is he faking some of those text conversations with skaters?

I do agree with Goebel that we need someone who talks about things that are swept under the table in the name of squeaky clean images, but that's not what anyone has an issue with. It's how he says it - it goes beyond being blunt into being nasty or sharing things publicly that were obviously not meant to be public. And it's fine to spill some things that aren't public (barring medical topics and other similar issues like they did with Gracie), but you shouldn't do it for the sake of getting attention and you should handle the issue delicately, not with nasty and unprofessional language like Dave tends to. Heck, half the time he pretends stuff "slips out" or "whispers" things as if to emphasize that he shouldn't be saying it.

 

[skatingguy]

The author may also have been reading FSU.