The Skating Lesson 2018/2019

[Willin]

I wonder if there's a way to get him permanently banned from USFS events as a spectator based on his comments? He's not only saying mean things about the skaters, but making USFS look bad. Since they're not a government organization (and therefore not beholden to the first amendment) one would think they could ban him from attending.

@CaliSteve No, it doesn't matter if I like the skater. I like drama and tea, but a lot of what he says go straight into insult and slander territory. Whether or not I like the skater or coach I would never support people straight up insulting and bullying skaters.

 

[Tavi]

Did they make sexist comments about his clothes or call him an ethnic novelty act?

Ha, no - but they actually did ask him about his orange hair / wild costume at Sochi and he gave a really detailed and interesting answer as to why he did that.

 

[Tavi]

I wonder if there's a way to get him permanently banned from USFS events as a spectator based on his comments? He's not only saying mean things about the skaters, but making USFS look bad. Since they're not a government organization (and therefore not beholden to the first amendment) one would think they could ban him from attending.

@CaliSteve No, it doesn't matter if I like the skater. I like drama and tea, but a lot of what he says go straight into insult and slander territory. Whether or not I like the skater or coach I would never support people straight up insulting and bullying skaters.

Except if USFS were going to ban someone like Dave for saying mean and insulting or bullying things about skaters and making USFS look bad, they’d have to ban half the people on this board and on Twitter too. You have to apply the same rules to everyone.

 

[Willin]

@Tavi I think only a few users on this board are as bad as Dave as far as insults and bullying goes. Ignoring that, it's a matter of reach: Dave has thousands of followers who, based on the comments on his social media, eat up everything he says as the absolute truth. Dave also markets himself as a "news source," so presumably trustworthy and authoritative. That's a lot different than random people on a forum with plenty of disagreement and discussion that don't market themselves or do not have social media accounts with followers.

 

[giselle23]

I wonder if there's a way to get him permanently banned from USFS events as a spectator based on his comments? He's not only saying mean things about the skaters, but making USFS look bad. Since they're not a government organization (and therefore not beholden to the first amendment) one would think they could ban him from attending.

@CaliSteve No, it doesn't matter if I like the skater. I like drama and tea, but a lot of what he says go straight into insult and slander territory. Whether or not I like the skater or coach I would never support people straight up insulting and bullying skaters.

Not a Dave fan, but it would be going a bit far to ban him from events. He has a right to his opinion just like everyone else. As a spectator, he isn't disrupting the event. And he only reaches a very small segment of an already small audience for figure skating. Most people attending or watching the event have no idea who Dave is or what he says. He is hardly making the USFS "look bad." And high-level athletes have to put up with criticism--even mean criticism--from fans who boo them or call them bums or worse.

 

[Erin]

That meant Canada had to attempt qualification later that year at the Karl Schafer Memorial. Humphreys was sent by her national association to that event, and finished a disappointing 18th, well below the sixth spot needed for Canada to earn an Olympic berth.

This has nothing to do with TSL, but to clear up a frequent urban legend, Humphreys was actually not that far off Olympic qualification. Just like it happens now with Nebelhorn, many countries sent skaters who had already earned spots at 1997 Worlds, so Susan did not actually have to finish 6th to earn the spot - she only had to finish 6th among the countries who didn't have already earn an Olympic spot at 1997 Worlds. Of the skaters who finished ahead of her, I count 7 of them who already had Olympic spots (US, Russia, Hungary, Austria, Germany, Australia, Poland). So she actually finished 11th in the Olympic spot race. In addition, a number of the countries ahead of her opted not to send their skater to the Olympics or use all of their spots. Hungary and Austria had two spots and only used one, Switzerland and Great Britain turned down their spots, and when Slovakia got an alternate spot, they also turned it down.

The field in Nagano includes a skater from Bulgaria, who finished one spot ahead of Humphreys at Karl Schafer, and only includes 28 skaters (minus Tanja Szewczenko who withdrew due to illness). Canada was the next country in line to get an Olympic spot, but the only skater who met the Canadian Olympic Association standards was Humphreys, who was no longer skating by that point. So Canada would have also turned the spot down and by then, it was presumably too late in the game to go to the next country in line, South Korea, hence why there was not a full field.

 

[Wyliefan]

Giving Dave a chance to play the martyr is probably not a good idea. He'd enjoy it too much.

 

[Plisskin]

Except if USFS were going to ban someone like Dave for saying mean and insulting or bullying things about skaters and making USFS look bad, they’d have to ban half the people on this board and on Twitter too. You have to apply the same rules to everyone.

Would probably also have to ban quite a few journalists, like Phil Hersch for instance who have said some mean things in the past too.

 

[laviemn]

I wonder if there's a way to get him permanently banned from USFS events as a spectator based on his comments? He's not only saying mean things about the skaters, but making USFS look bad. Since they're not a government organization (and therefore not beholden to the first amendment) one would think they could ban him from attending.

A private business can refuse service to anyone for any reason as long as they're not a member of a protected class. Fans have been banned permanently from attendance in other sports, mostly for blatant racist or homophobic actions or physical aggression. Recently there was outrage about a soccer fan getting only a 3 game ban for throwing a banana at a black player.

If the USFS want to ban Dave, they're going to have to state the reason, and I think citing "saying mean things about the skaters" and "making USFS look bad" is going to bring a lot of criticism and ridicule to their doorstep.

@Tavi I think only a few users on this board are as bad as Dave as far as insults and bullying goes. Ignoring that, it's a matter of reach: Dave has thousands of followers who, based on the comments on his social media, eat up everything he says as the absolute truth. Dave also markets himself as a "news source," so presumably trustworthy and authoritative. That's a lot different than random people on a forum with plenty of disagreement and discussion that don't market themselves or do not have social media accounts with followers.

What is the number of social media followers a person can have and still say mean things about skaters without getting banned? If Dave should get banned because he violates some standard as a self-proclaimed "news source", then should Phil Hersh also be banned for some of his comments that have angered skaters? If the USFS are going to do this sort of thing, they're going to have to state some clear policies.

 

[Icetigger]

Would probably also have to ban quite a few journalists, like Phil Hersch for instance who have said some mean things in the past too.

I don't think Phil Hersh has said anything like "Ashley is repeating outfits whilst giving us white girl quotes." He is blunt and opinionated, but he's not a bully, and he would never ridicule anyone in a racialised or gender based way; or in terms of completely superficial expectations; or in a way which seeks to make the reader complicit with such bullying.

 

[giselle23]

TSL’s comments.

Ashley’s response.

I don't think Phil Hersh has said anything like "Ashley is repeating outfits whilst giving us white girl quotes." He is blunt and opinionated, but he's not a bully, and he would never ridicule anyone in a racialised or gender based way; or in terms of completely superficial expectations; or in a way which seeks to make the reader complicit with such bullying.

I looked through TSL's instagram, Twitter and Facebook postings for the past few months and I could not find these comments about Ashley. Did they take them down? Or are they fake?

 

[Icetigger]

I looked through TSL's instagram, Twitter and Facebook postings for the past few months and I could not find these comments about Ashley. Did they take them down? Or are they fake?

They were an instagram story. https://twitter.com/alexaa_liu/status/1083937891548450819

They definitely existed; these haven't been mocked up; but they only stay up on the site for 24 hrs.

 

[Tavi]

@Tavi I think only a few users on this board are as bad as Dave as far as insults and bullying goes. Ignoring that, it's a matter of reach: Dave has thousands of followers who, based on the comments on his social media, eat up everything he says as the absolute truth. Dave also markets himself as a "news source," so presumably trustworthy and authoritative. That's a lot different than random people on a forum with plenty of disagreement and discussion that don't market themselves or do not have social media accounts with followers.

I take your point, but I guess I disagree (sorry, I usually agree with almost everything you say!).

First, I think that platforms like Twitter, etc., have kind of leveled the playing field between individuals and news organizations; you don’t have to have a lot of followers for your comment to reach the subject of your criticism (you can tag them) or to reach a lot of people (add some hashtags and it can go viral). You’re right that this forum and Golden Skate aren’t quite the same, but I disagree that there aren’t a lot of mean spirited comments on fs forums or a lot of really negative comments about USFS.

As to TSL - yes they do have a lot of followers, but since all 24,000 of them aren’t responding to their Twitter / Instagram posts or commenting on their YouTube videos, I don’t think you can assume much about them. Anecdotally, for example, I follow TSL on Twitter and listen to most of their content, but certainly don’t take everything they say as true, nor do I agree with all their opinions or how some of them are phrased.

The other thing is, when you say Dave markets himself as a news source - well that implies he’s a journalist, doesn’t it? And plenty of journalists write or say things that people disagree with or wish they wouldn’t, or in a way that people dislike. And most of what they say is protected by the first amendment. Even if you compare TSL to tabloid journalism, the truth is that papers like the National Enquirer have huge audiences, and - except on the rare occasions when they’ve been found guilty of libel - regularly write stories and make comments that many people (especially the subjects) likely find offensive. What I find perplexing is how many people here seem to dislike / despise what TSL does, but apparently still listen and then come here to comment.

Not sure if you recall, but in 1996, USFS banned Christine Brennan for a couple of months after she criticized them for not timely responding to the AIDS crisis. The ban only lasted a couple of months, and a lot of sportswriters came to her defense. While I don’t see TSL and WaPo as equivalent, the point emphasized in these articles is that sportswriting necessarily involves subjective opinion.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/arch...728-8960-bad08fd55ae9/?utm_term=.aed879acfc0f

https://www.washingtonpost.com/arch...ec2-be8c-b9e7a4b2a860/?utm_term=.4d1fe96e5885

 

[Frau Muller]

Since I became a skating fan as a kid watching CBS’ 64 Olys in my Puerto Rico, I’ve experienced two “media revolutions” that have heightened my fs fan experiences, especially with regard to news on skaters:

One was the explosion of non-stop skating on TV during the 1990s, especially after the Tonya-Nancy incident...the skating news on TV, alas, didn’t last past about 2002 except for the Olympics.

The second is happening now, with all of the skating-news podcasts, the #1 being TSL. Unfiltered, yet responsible. I’m sure that the “USFS skating establishment” of control freaks would like to muzzle them...

 

[rhapsody]

Since I became a skating fan as a kid watching CBS’ 64 Olys in my Puerto Rico, I’ve experienced two “media revolutions” that have heightened my fs fan experiences, especially with regard to news on skaters:

One was the explosion of non-stop skating on TV during the 1990s, especially after the Tonya-Nancy incident...the skating news on TV, alas, didn’t last past about 2002 except for the Olympics.

The second is happening now, with all of the skating-news podcasts, the #1 being TSL. Unfiltered, yet responsible. I’m sure that the “USFS skating establishment” of control freaks would like to muzzle them. LONG MAY TSL AND OTHER NON-FAKE-NEWS INTERNET SKATING INFORMATION OUTLETS REIGN.

I actually like TSL but you're effing nuts.

 

[Foolhardy Ham Lint]

This has nothing to do with TSL, but to clear up a frequent urban legend, Humphreys was actually not that far off Olympic qualification. Just like it happens now with Nebelhorn, many countries sent skaters who had already earned spots at 1997 Worlds, so Susan did not actually have to finish 6th to earn the spot - she only had to finish 6th among the countries who didn't have already earn an Olympic spot at 1997 Worlds. Of the skaters who finished ahead of her, I count 7 of them who already had Olympic spots (US, Russia, Hungary, Austria, Germany, Australia, Poland). So she actually finished 11th in the Olympic spot race. In addition, a number of the countries ahead of her opted not to send their skater to the Olympics or use all of their spots. Hungary and Austria had two spots and only used one, Switzerland and Great Britain turned down their spots, and when Slovakia got an alternate spot, they also turned it down.

The field in Nagano includes a skater from Bulgaria, who finished one spot ahead of Humphreys at Karl Schafer, and only includes 28 skaters (minus Tanja Szewczenko who withdrew due to illness). Canada was the next country in line to get an Olympic spot, but the only skater who met the Canadian Olympic Association standards was Humphreys, who was no longer skating by that point. So Canada would have also turned the spot down and by then, it was presumably too late in the game to go to the next country in line, South Korea, hence why there was not a full field.

Thanks for this.

I should have further clarified and said sixth amongst the countries needing qualification. Sadly, a skater of Humphreys' calibre should really have won or placed at that event. I don't think she competed ever again.

Canada was certainly at its lowest point as an international power in the ladies' event from 1995 - 2003.

 

[overedge]

Not sure if you recall, but in 1996, USFS banned Christine Brennan for a couple of months after she criticized them for not timely responding to the AIDS crisis. The ban only lasted a couple of months, and a lot of sportswriters came to her defense.

No, the official reason they gave her (as per the letter she quoted in the later editions of her book) was her trying to commercially profit off USFS, as in selling her book at USFS events while being admitted on a WaPo press pass. Yes, it was a bogus reason, and yes, their real motivation may have been not liking how she reported on other issues, but at least acknowledge why they said they did it.

The other thing is, when you say Dave markets himself as a news source - well that implies he’s a journalist, doesn’t it?

No. You don't get to be a journalist just by calling yourself one.

 

[Tavi]

No, the official reason they gave her (as per the letter she quoted in the later editions of her book) was her trying to commercially profit off USFS, as in selling her book at USFS events while being admitted on a WaPo press pass. Yes, it was a bogus reason, and yes, their real motivation may have been not liking how she reported on other issues, but at least acknowledge why they said they did it.



No. You don't get to be a journalist just by calling yourself one.

The first article I linked to mentions AIDS. The second article does mention the “official” reason as commercialization.

Just curious - what qualifies someone as a journalist in your mind? I’m pretty sure Dave has a degree in journalism and that he apprenticed with Christine Brennan. He’s had USFS press passes and been in the mixed zone before. He disseminates news on TSL as well as gossip, and he’s scooped more established journalists on some things (who went to Orser this season for example). Also, although some people are loathe to admit it, he’s done some damn good interviews, and I’m pretty sure that he was the one who pushed Christine Brennan to write about SafeSport. He can certainly be snarky and he clearly rubs some people the wrong way, but he’s also willing to bring up important stuff - what’s going on with WADA, SafeSport and parallels to gymnastics etc. - and I don’t think he gets enough credit for that.

 

[overedge]

@Tavi Dave has no experience (as far as I can tell from his LinkedIn) working at news organizations. I don't know what you mean by "apprenticing" with Christine Brennan.

A journalist is someone who's in the profession because they are curious about things and they want to make a difference through their work. IMO Dave's work is as much about how wonderful Dave thinks he is than about conveying information. Journalists are also honest and only report information that they've verified.

Who does or doesn't get press passes to events is not an indicator of who is a journalist. It's an indication of which organizations the host of the event wants to get coverage from. Not the same thing.

 

[Plisskin]

Just want to say as someone who has an actual degree in Journalism and currently works in broadcast news as an Assignment Editor....that I've worked with people who don't have journalism or even communication degrees. They really did just start calling themselves that and doing freelance work like Dave lol. Being honest is unfortunately not a requirement as well in this day and age. It's something I learned while in school as part of our ethics, but while interning I saw first hand how things can get....sensationalized. Anyway, carry on.

 

[overedge]

@Plisskin the question I was answering was what I considered to be a journalist. I know full well that there are people working in journalism who aren't honest. I don't consider them journalists. There is also a big difference between people who work as freelancers, as in selling their work to media outlets, and people with no journalism experience who set up their own websites, blogs, podcasts, whatever, and call themselves journalists.

 

[overedge]

Giving Dave a chance to play the martyr is probably not a good idea. He'd enjoy it too much.

As he proved when he threw a hissyfit after not getting a USFS press pass for a relatively minor international event.....

 

[Tavi]

@Tavi Dave has no experience (as far as I can tell from his LinkedIn) working at news organizations. I don't know what you mean by "apprenticing" with Christine Brennan.

A journalist is someone who's in the profession because they are curious about things and they want to make a difference through their work. IMO Dave's work is as much about how wonderful Dave thinks he is than about conveying information. Journalists are also honest and only report information that they've verified.

Who does or doesn't get press passes to events is not an indicator of who is a journalist. It's an indication of which organizations the host of the event wants to get coverage from. Not the same thing.

As to Christine Brennan, I thought I remembered a conversation between the two of them where Dave briefly referenced an internship with her, perhaps in Sochi? I could be wrong.

As to the rest of it, I get that you have a negative impression of Dave, but unless you are personally acquainted with him, how do you really know whether he’s curious or incurious, honest or dishonest, verifies or fails to verify information, and does or doesn’t want to make a difference through his work?

By the way, I’m relatively certain that some very good journalists are self interested and have strong egos.

 

[bardtoob]

I get that you have a negative impression of Dave, but unless you are personally acquainted with him, how do you really know whether he’s curious or incurious, honest or dishonest, verifies or fails to verify information, and does or doesn’t want to make a difference through his work?

He has a media persona, which can be just as unliked as his regular personality.

 

[Icetigger]

Dave Lease is a journalist. Because his intent is to provide a journal for public consumption on a particular subject. What kind of journalist he is is another matter.....

 

[Foolhardy Ham Lint]

Dave Lease is a journalist. Because his intent is to provide a journal for public consumption on a particular subject. What kind of journalist he is is another matter.....

As to Christine Brennan, I thought I remembered a conversation between the two of them where Dave briefly referenced an internship with her, perhaps in Sochi? I could be wrong.

As to the rest of it, I get that you have a negative impression of Dave, but unless you are personally acquainted with him, how do you really know whether he’s curious or incurious, honest or dishonest, verifies or fails to verify information, and does or doesn’t want to make a difference through his work?

By the way, I’m relatively certain that some very good journalists are self interested and have strong egos.

Conversely, I've had the experience of working with several people who couldn't do their jobs, put everybody's noses out of joint, but were equally self-interested with strong egos, too.

 

[Frau Muller]

The Hits just keep on coming! Latest TSL weekly news recap discussion with both Kimmie and Alissa as guests. Focus on US Nationals - predictions, free Scott Cares show, Alissa’s travel tips for downtown Detroit, etc.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=dc5ck7VikfE

 

[Tavi]

@bardtoob, I agree you can like/dislike someone’s media personality, but my point was that @overedge’s definition of journalist relies on stuff you can’t necessarily know from someone’s media personality.

@essence_of_soy, I agree; my point was that maybe whether or not someone has a big ego isn’t related to whether they’re dedicated to their jobs (as journalists or anything else) or whether they’re good at them.

 

[MK's Winter]

Except if USFS were going to ban someone like Dave for saying mean and insulting or bullying things about skaters and making USFS look bad, they’d have to ban half the people on this board and on Twitter too. You have to apply the same rules to everyone.

After listening to the Kimmie interview they would have to ban some coaches and officials- so they really can’t ban him for being cheeky. Which is what the Ashley posts were. Ashley always brings a show to Nationals- she will definitely be missed this year. He pointed out Ashley is a personality. I didn’t find it offensive but I also got the reference.

As for the USFS looking bad- obviously they can do that all on their own. I don’t think Dave really gives a flying what what regarding a press pass anyway.

 

[Foolhardy Ham Lint]

Dave Lease is a journalist. Because his intent is to provide a journal for public consumption on a particular subject. What kind of journalist he is is another matter.....

So, just to say off the top, I think that Martha Karolyi is a terrible person and I agree that she that she is an abusive coach that should not be held up as a good example. But there is a lot of misinformation in this post. First, no survivor has come forward and directly said that they told her about the allegations about Nassar (as opposed to many people at MSU who were directly told, such as Kathie Klages who has been charged with lying to the police). Some have made comments like "she knew everything that went on at that camp, like what I ate for breakfast that morning, how could she not have known". Which is an excellent point. But most have focused more on the environment she created that allowed the abuse to flourish because it created the environment where people were afraid to speak up. Second, I don't believe the FBI is investigating the Karolyis. The Wikipedia link mentions the Texas Rangers investigating them, which already happened and the Texas Rangers seemed to fall under Martha's spell and specifically mentioned in a press conference back in the summer that the Karolyis were not being charged. The Wikipedia page hasn't been updated since then. Third, Aly Raisman and Simone Biles didn't speak out in court about Martha. Simone didn't even speak in court or send a written statement and to my knowledge, has never said anything bad about Martha. She did say that she was dreading going back to the Karolyi Ranch where she was abused when she went public about being abused, which resulted in it being closed less than a week later. Aly has been very mixed on Martha and has not been one of the athletes that has sued the Karolyis. The athletes that have been more publicly critical of the Karolyis and are suing the Karolyis include Mattie Larson, Jamie Dantzscher, and Sabrina Vega. Mattie and Jamie were probably the most vocal at Nassar's sentencing hearing.

Anyway, the overall point is correct that the Karolyis both suck.

The former Romanian gymnast, Emilia Eberle, went on record that the Karolyis used to beat her and other teammates during training. This excerpt was taken from her Wikipedia profile page.

In November 2008, Eberle — who now goes by the name Trudi Kollar, incorporating her first name and her married last name — gave an interview to KCRA-TV attesting that Béla and Márta Károlyi regularly beat her and her teammates for mistakes they made in practice or competition. "In one word, I can say it was brutal," she told KCRA.