The Skating Lesson 2018/2019

layman

Well-Known Member
Messages
159
It was really interesting reviewing the Sochi ladies. Looking at Yulia Lipnitskaya again was very informative. She was the darling of those Games.

Yet, when I first saw her at the 2012 Junior Worlds (she won, Gracie Gold was second), it was painfully obvious that her technique would not get her through puberty. Lipnitskaya had Eteri technique...small, muscled (lots of upper body assistance), pre-rotated jumps (with rocket rotations) that barely got off the ice.

This technique only works with tiny pre-pubescent bodies. Yulia arrived at the Sochi Games right at the end of the usefulness of the technique she had been taught, because she was growing. We literally watched her hit the wall at the Sochi Games. She was never a factor after.

It's painfully obvious that Medvedeva and Zagitova are showing the same trajectory. Both have outgrown their Eteri technique. The Eteri Camp tends to dump skaters like Lipnitskaya, Medvedeva and Zagitova once they reach puberty and outgrow the technique taught in that camp.

All the current Eteri girls (Trusova, Kostornaia, Sherbakova etc) have been taught this same technique and I doubt that any of them will have much of a (skating) career past the age of 16 unless they re-learn their jump technique.

Contrast the Eteri girls with Elisaveta Tuktamusheva, the energizer bunny of Russian skating. At the grand age of 23 she's is still a factor. I remember when she was overshadowed by Lipnitskaya, Medvedeva and Zagitova. Yet she's still going, thanks to her superior jump technique that has taken her past puberty (all thanks to her coach, Evgeny Mishin, who teaches much cleaner,sounder technique).

For all the success of the Eteri camp in Figure Skating, what we see is that the girls (from that camp) never make it past puberty. So, the winner of the Ladies Gold at the next Games will probably not be from the Eteri Camp, unless there is a 12 year old in that camp right now who manages to peak at the just the right time before she outgrows her technique.
 

muffinplus

Well-Known Member
Messages
2,842
The Eteri girls don't all have the same technique clearly.. I don't know what t you are talking about re Eteri technique ?
 

WillyElliot

Tanning one day, then wearing a winter coat today.
Messages
662
Lip's technique was horrendous before she even went to Eteri. It was obvious to anyone that Lip would never make it through puberty and still be competitive. Don't blame Eteri for that.

I don't see the 4A's technique as similar either. Only Anna has tiny, spinning top rotations.
 

Loves_Shizuka

Well-Known Member
Messages
19,518
Hasn't Zagitova grown a fair bit even since the Olympics? So far, her jumps have stayed with her. Her technique is much better than Lip's ever was IMO.
 

oleada

Well-Known Member
Messages
39,489
Kostornaia and Trusova and Scherbakova all have different technique from each other, too.
 

misskarne

Handy Emergency Backup Mode
Messages
17,834
Yet she's still going, thanks to her superior jump technique that has taken her past puberty (all thanks to her coach, Evgeny Mishin, who teaches much cleaner,sounder technique).

For all the success of the Eteri camp in Figure Skating, what we see is that the girls (from that camp) never make it past puberty. So, the winner of the Ladies Gold at the next Games will probably not be from the Eteri Camp, unless there is a 12 year old in that camp right now who manages to peak at the just the right time before she outgrows her technique.
I've always said good sound technique is one reason. But the other...when Liza was struggling, I remember reading an interview, some journalist who stopped just short of calling Liza fat (preposterous), and Mishin just shrugged and said that they just needed to ride out the changes and let everything settle down, and if they fought it it would make it worse. Meanwhile Eteri had a tiny 15 year old on a powder diet and weighs to the gram.
 

Mozart

I've got 99 problems but a colon ain't 1
Messages
3,301
It was really interesting reviewing the Sochi ladies. Looking at Yulia Lipnitskaya again was very informative. She was the darling of those Games.

Yet, when I first saw her at the 2012 Junior Worlds (she won, Gracie Gold was second), it was painfully obvious that her technique would not get her through puberty. Lipnitskaya had Eteri technique...small, muscled (lots of upper body assistance), pre-rotated jumps (with rocket rotations) that barely got off the ice.

This technique only works with tiny pre-pubescent bodies. Yulia arrived at the Sochi Games right at the end of the usefulness of the technique she had been taught, because she was growing. We literally watched her hit the wall at the Sochi Games. She was never a factor after.

It's painfully obvious that Medvedeva and Zagitova are showing the same trajectory. Both have outgrown their Eteri technique. The Eteri Camp tends to dump skaters like Lipnitskaya, Medvedeva and Zagitova once they reach puberty and outgrow the technique taught in that camp.

All the current Eteri girls (Trusova, Kostornaia, Sherbakova etc) have been taught this same technique and I doubt that any of them will have much of a (skating) career past the age of 16 unless they re-learn their jump technique.

Contrast the Eteri girls with Elisaveta Tuktamusheva, the energizer bunny of Russian skating. At the grand age of 23 she's is still a factor. I remember when she was overshadowed by Lipnitskaya, Medvedeva and Zagitova. Yet she's still going, thanks to her superior jump technique that has taken her past puberty (all thanks to her coach, Evgeny Mishin, who teaches much cleaner,sounder technique).

For all the success of the Eteri camp in Figure Skating, what we see is that the girls (from that camp) never make it past puberty. So, the winner of the Ladies Gold at the next Games will probably not be from the Eteri Camp, unless there is a 12 year old in that camp right now who manages to peak at the just the right time before she
 
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layman

Well-Known Member
Messages
159
Hasn't Zagitova grown a fair bit even since the Olympics? So far, her jumps have stayed with her. Her technique is much better than Lip's ever was IMO.
So far this season yes but she appears to be just hanging on, just squeaking out the rotations (much like Yulia did in Sochi or Medvedeva did in Pyeongchang). She seems to have less spring than she did a year ago. If she keeps growing her current technique will fail her.
 

essence_of_soy

Well-Known Member
Messages
4,718
It must be so difficult to compete at the elite level, skating through a growth spurt, and hoping that one's technique can be managed and maintained.
 

DreamSkates

Well-Known Member
Messages
2,184
So far this season yes but she appears to be just hanging on, just squeaking out the rotations (much like Yulia did in Sochi or Medvedeva did in Pyeongchang). She seems to have less spring than she did a year ago. If she keeps growing her current technique will fail her.
Yet another reason Med should have changed coaches as she did - new people to work with her on technique and all else. And not a dumping ground, but ground for growth. Although Zagitova's recent high score - wow. Or is she being overscored? Sorry, can't remember which I watched but seems her LP was 150?
 

GreatLakesGal

Well-Known Member
Messages
147
Med may thrive at TCC. Or she may end up like Tursy and Nam--to name just a few of Orser's nonsuccess stories.

I like Brian and have followed him closely since 2015, when I first discovered Hanyu. He's a good coach in many ways but, like other coaches, he's not without his blind spots and faults. And he's very much like Eteri in one important way: He wants skaters who can medal, preferably gold. When it starts to look like that's not going to happen for one of his students, he gradually starts pulling away from that skater and stops talking about him or her in interviews.
 

soogar

Well-Known Member
Messages
2,648
Wasn't Christina Gao also one of his? Adam Rippon didn't do anything under Orser either IIRC.
And Orser never fixed Adam's triple axel either. He didn't really get consistent with that jump until he went to Aruntunian. I think Orser is overrated as a coach. He's great at managing a sound skater but he has never fixed a problem child. Will be very interesting to see what happens with Jason Brown, even though Orser made sure to distance himself from him. I think a coach who was great at fixing technique like Tom Z or Raf would be excited to show what they can do with Jason.
 

Frau Muller

Everything is beautiful at the ballet!
Messages
11,101
Latest weekly news-recap show, discussing the Gracie Gold interview video, JGP Armenia, etc.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=srmMx4MuWUg

My only negative: Jonathan is looking more & more disheveled every week. Take a shower, comb the hair, iron the shirt or wear a simple sweater like Dave!
 

wickedwitch

Well-Known Member
Messages
14,159
I think Orser is a great coach, but that doesn't mean he's the right coach for everyone. And it certainly doesn't mean that there's something wrong with a skater who doesn't succeed with him.
 

Fairuza

Well-Known Member
Messages
277
And Orser never fixed Adam's triple axel either. He didn't really get consistent with that jump until he went to Aruntunian. I think Orser is overrated as a coach. He's great at managing a sound skater but he has never fixed a problem child. Will be very interesting to see what happens with Jason Brown, even though Orser made sure to distance himself from him. I think a coach who was great at fixing technique like Tom Z or Raf would be excited to show what they can do with Jason.
Ah, so Javier Fernandez was an absolutely problemless skater when he landed with Brian. Makes one wonder why he hadn’t been at the top of podiums prior to then.
And Yuzuru’s flip just healed itself miraculously. Interesting.
I live for this sweeping generalization of coaches’ and skaters’ characters.
 

Tinami Amori

Well-Known Member
Messages
17,232
I think Orser is a great coach, but that doesn't mean he's the right coach for everyone. And it certainly doesn't mean that there's something wrong with a skater who doesn't succeed with him.
Agree about Orser, as well is in regards to many top coaches.

My big wish is for Rafael Arutynian, just for once, have his way with a skater, and be able to train him/her just the way he wants without any hindrances/objections.
 

ninjapirate

Active Member
Messages
184
I'm not going to watch the 2014 Olympic scoring video, but does he at all address the fact that Yuna in the SP skated extremely early which probably hurt her a bit? Just like with Plushenko in 2010.
 

aftershocks

Well-Known Member
Messages
14,946
Yep, Orser was the right coach for Hanyu and Javi. He helped Hanyu with his endurance issues, pacing himself and strategizing for sure. He worked with Javi diligently to help him find his perfomance niche, as I think he saw something of his younger self in Javi. However, Orser probably had more artistic range than Javi, at least Orser fulfilled his potential more artistically than Javi. But then, there's not a lot of opportunities for skaters today to continue growing artistically, or to focus as much on artistic aspects when technical skills are more highly regarded.

I think Orser was more technically consistent in his day and aggressively competitive too. Orser just ran into bad luck twice at the Olympics with the buzz saw one-two punch of Hamilton and Boitano. That's one reason why it's so cool to see Orser having a second life as an Olympic-winning coach of great skaters. :)
 

bardtoob

Clichy Competitive Audition Protocol Auditor
Messages
13,305
Orser just ran into bad luck twice at the Olympics with the buzz saw one-two punch of Hamilton and Boitano.
I think you are for the most part right, but Orser was hit by the politics of compulsory figures and "wait your turn" politics, not the buzz we know today.
 

aftershocks

Well-Known Member
Messages
14,946
I think you are for the most part right, but Orser was hit by the politics of compulsory figures and "wait your turn" politics, not the buzz we know today.
Oh my word, for sure, for sure. Orser obviously should have won in 1984 over Hamilton, even despite compulsory figures. The politics and official as well as public sentiment was on Hamilton's side. In 1988, the politics was actualy in Brian Orser's favor, and even the games were in Canada! However, maybe that fact added pressure for Biran O. And in any case, Brian B was absolutely loaded for bear with his superb Sandra Bezic-choreographed programs. Brian B was on his game and determined to win, regardless of political scoring.

In any case, the buzz saw was the one-two punch of political sentiment for Hamilton in '84, and aggressive competitiveness from Brian B in '88, coupled with Brian O feeling a bit more pressure skating in Calgary, Canada which may have led to the slight hiccough/error in his fp.
 

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