The Skating Lesson 2018/2019

[Tavi]

If I were a a skater in a rink and a coach or someone acted in the way towards me that Dave Lease does towards Ashley Wagner, I'd report him to Safesport. Bullying within this sport should not be tolerated in whatever form.

Just as not every “negative” comment is defamatory, not every “objectionable” behavior rises to the level of harassment or bullying. Safesport has a very specific mission. Ashley is a 27-year old woman who seems fully capable of standing up for herself on social media.

https://safesport.org/who-we-are

 

[Icetigger]

Just as not every “negative” comment is defamatory, not every “objectionable” behavior rises to the level of harassment or bullying. Safesport has a very specific mission. Ashley is a 27-year old woman who seems fully capable of standing up for herself on social media.

https://safesport.org/who-we-are

If I were in a working environment where someone made digs and snide comments about me with the frequency that Dave Lease does about Ashley, including making a racialised, gender based attack on social media- "Ashley is repeating outfits whilst giving us white girl quotes"- I'd consider it bullying; and if that environment was a sporting one, I'd report him to Safesport. I'm sure that would fall within their remit. Stuff like this is the thin end of the wedge. Hopefully they'd put him on some behavioural adjustment course. There you go!

 

[Tavi]

If I were in a working environment where someone made digs and snide comments about me with the frequency that Dave Lease does about Ashley, including making a racialised, gender based attack on social media- "Ashley is repeating outfits whilst giving us white girl quotes"- I'd consider it bullying; and if that environment was a sporting one, I'd report him to Safesport. I'm sure that would fall within their remit. Stuff like this is the thin of the wedge. Hopefully they'd put him on some behavioural adjustment course. There you go!

But the point is, they’re not in the same environment, unless you consider the internet or Instagram an environment. Even if you think Dave’s comments amount to harassment, he’s not located at her rink; he’s not her coach; he’s not her boss. So it’s unlikely to be something Safesport would deal with - they don’t have any jurisdiction over him, that is, they don’t have the power to investigate or discipline him, anymore than they would have the power to investigate or discipline you, if you regularly said nasty things about Ashley on Twitter, for example.

If you look at stuff people say on Instagram, Twitter, this forum, YouTube, Reddit, etc - you can find a lot of gratuitous nastiness - much worse than the stuff at issue here - and the comments certainly aren’t confined to skaters. But in the US, and in most other countries to a greater or lesser degree - people have the right to free speech, to say what they want, except in certain well-defined circumstances. And I kind of doubt that the comments you take issue with here would rise to that level in the US, or would violate Instagram’s rules. JMO.

 

[Icetigger]

But the point is, they’re not in the same environment, unless you consider the internet or Instagram an environment. Even if you think Dave’s comments amount to harassment, he’s not located at her rink; he’s not her coach; he’s not her boss. So it’s unlikely to be something Safesport would deal with - they don’t have any jurisdiction over him, that is, they don’t have the power to investigate or discipline him, anymore than they would have the power to investigate or discipline you, if you regularly said nasty things about Ashley on Twitter, for example.

If you look at stuff people say on Instagram, Twitter, this forum, YouTube, Reddit, etc - you can find a lot of gratuitous nastiness - much worse than the stuff at issue here - and the comments certainly aren’t confined to skaters. But in the US, and in most other countries to a greater or lesser degree - people have the right to free speech, to say what they want, except in certain well-defined circumstances. And I kind of doubt that the comments you take issue with here would rise to that level in the US, or would violate Instagram’s rules. JMO.

I used my free speech to point out that within a working or sporting environment Dave Lease's behaviour towards Ashley Wagner would be worth reporting. I stand by that; and that opinion is not going to change by you pointing out a situation I am acknowledging as hypothetical, and have always presented as hypothetical, is indeed hypothetical.I really don't know what your point is, or think that you have one..... I've put the parts of the original posts that make the relevant statements hypothetical (from a grammatical point of view) in bold to help you out.

 

[Frau Muller]

I just binge-watched TSL’s last three shows, including Kimmie part II. Fantastic work! I also loved Doug Haw’s predictions for 2019.

 

[Tavi]

I used my free speech to point out that within a working or sporting environment Dave Lease's behaviour towards Ashley Wagner would be worth reporting. I stand by that; and that opinion is not going to change by you pointing out a situation I am acknowledging as hypothetical, and have always presented as hypothetical, is indeed hypothetical.I really don't know what your point is, or think that you have one.....

Hunh? You’re welcome to as much free speech and as many hypotheticals as you want. I’m sorry if you don’t understand my point. Cheers.

ETA: I didn’t need the bold, thanks. For someone so upset about bullying and abuse you seem somewhat less than concerned with whether your own comments here are rude. By the way, you already stated straight up that you considered Dave’s comments hate speech and racist and gender based bullying, so there was really no point to your hypothetical. I happen to disagree with your take, but that’s neither here nor there.

 

[CaliSteve]

Well done to Ashley for calling Lease out. He is conducting a hate campaign against her.

I wouldnt call it a "hate" campaign. Its shade. Big difference.

 

[CaliSteve]

If I were a a skater in a rink and a coach or someone acted in the way towards me that Dave Lease does towards Ashley Wagner, I'd report him to Safesport. Bullying within this sport should not be tolerated in whatever form.

I think comments like the ones Dave made are not isolated at skating rinks. Comments are shady, petty, catty but I wouldnt put in the same category of reportable behavior that Safesport was intended for.

 

[CaliSteve]

If I were in a working environment where someone made digs and snide comments about me with the frequency that Dave Lease does about Ashley, including making a racialised, gender based attack on social media- "Ashley is repeating outfits whilst giving us white girl quotes"- I'd consider it bullying; and if that environment was a sporting one, I'd report him to Safesport. I'm sure that would fall within their remit. Stuff like this is the thin end of the wedge. Hopefully they'd put him on some behavioural adjustment course. There you go!

Your stretching to the point of being offensive. Comparing Dave's comments belittles and minimizes blatant hate, sexual harassment and abuse, and bullying.

 

[Willin]

@CaliSteve The difference is that shade is clever and rooted in truth. Nothing Dave says about Ashley or any other skater is clever and is only rooted in truth by the loosest sense of the term.

 

[Foolhardy Ham Lint]

Wow! Those are some really rude comments from TSL!

Agreed. For a second I thought I had stumbled across Perez Hilton's site, and his disgusting way of demeaning people with that fake handwritten font he uses.

 

[Foolhardy Ham Lint]

One of the reasons why I refuse to share TSL content on my Facebook page, is that while Lease & Co show that they are capable of producing decent content (as with the case of Kimmie Meisnner's recent interview), then they go and trash Ashley Wagner for no other reason other than that they can.

I'm Team Ashley all the way here. Block 'em!

 

[CaliSteve]

@CaliSteve The difference is that shade is clever and rooted in truth. Nothing Dave says about Ashley or any other skater is clever and is only rooted in truth by the loosest sense of the term.

What are some of the things Dave had said about Ashley that were untruthful?

 

[Foolhardy Ham Lint]

If I were in a working environment where someone made digs and snide comments about me with the frequency that Dave Lease does about Ashley, including making a racialised, gender based attack on social media- "Ashley is repeating outfits whilst giving us white girl quotes"- I'd consider it bullying; and if that environment was a sporting one, I'd report him to Safesport. I'm sure that would fall within their remit. Stuff like this is the thin end of the wedge. Hopefully they'd put him on some behavioural adjustment course. There you go!

Agreed. If Lease did that in a professional office environment, he would be marched from his cubicle by security, and thrown out of the building.

 

[Foolhardy Ham Lint]

Your stretching to the point of being offensive. Comparing Dave's comments belittles and minimizes blatant hate, sexual harassment and abuse, and bullying.

The sad thing is that the US has a leader in power whose aggressive behaviour makes it acceptable (but not right) for others to follow suit.

 

[Willin]

I've forgotten a lot of it, as it's mostly personal stuff about how nasty and overdramatic she is, but most notably all the BS about her ankle last fall.

 

[CaliSteve]

The sad thing is that the US has a leader in power whose aggressive behaviour makes it acceptable (but not right) for others to follow suit.

And enablers in congressional leadership roles that looks the other way. The fallout is that my good friend is among the many thousands of folks who are getting their paycheck because of the shut down.

 

[CaliSteve]

I've forgotten a lot of it, as it's mostly personal stuff about how nasty and overdramatic she is, but most notably all the BS about her ankle last fall.

I have a good friend who is an official and was at SA. She mentioned that several people did not believe her situation. Its also been talked about in alot circles. Im not sure what to believe but if there is any truth to it, that could have been the main reason she wasn't selected for the Olympics. TSL thinks she was screwed.

 

[Willin]

@CaliSteve Just because "several people" did not believe her situation does not mean that's what happened. What does she need to do for people to believe her, post a picture of the weeping wound itself? TBH I wouldn't even if I was trying to defend my reputation. Wounds, particularly infected wounds, look nasty a lot of the time and she would've been criticized for posting a picture.

Knowing Ashley (or at least people who know her), she's one of those who insists on competing through pain and injury. She's not someone that will lie to save face, at least recently. She'll tell it how it is even if she offends people. Apparently it was offensive that she decided to compete with an injury.
She offends a lot of people in the more conventional and traditional skating community including a heck of a lot of coaches and judges I know. That added to her teenage personality, which was legendarily stubborn earned her a lot of enemies among west coach coaches. I would imagine a lot of the people she's offended within USFS would be more than happy to latch onto any negative rumor about her. Most of the people I know who she's offended in the past reacted by saying they didn't think she actually did lie, but turning around to say they thought she was bratty enough to do it.

Personally I think TSL was playing it up and rumormongering because she was someone that they once had in their favor and then decided to spurn them in some way. Dave's done the same thing with at least Kori Ade, Jenny Kirk, and the Knirems: as soon as a "source" or a "friend" stops being a "source" they start spreading rumors and nastiness.

 

[Foolhardy Ham Lint]

@CaliSteve Just because "several people" did not believe her situation does not mean that's what happened. What does she need to do for people to believe her, post a picture of the weeping wound itself? TBH I wouldn't even if I was trying to defend my reputation. Wounds, particularly infected wounds, look nasty a lot of the time and she would've been criticized for posting a picture.

Knowing Ashley (or at least people who know her), she's one of those who insists on competing through pain and injury. She's not someone that will lie to save face, at least recently. She'll tell it how it is even if she offends people. Apparently it was offensive that she decided to compete with an injury.

Skaters compete through pain all the time. But fortunately, most are smart enough to know their own physical limitations. The risk of permanent damage is too great.

Ashley's injury and the decision to withdraw, reminds me of a similar situation faced by Susan Humphreys of Canada at the 1997 World Championships.

Carrying a staph infection in her ankle, she skated through tremendous pain in the short program. I recall how the skater also faced tremendous criticism for being unable to attempt the free program. The reason being, those championships were the main qualifying event for the 1998 Olympic Games in Nagano.

That meant Canada had to attempt qualification later that year at the Karl Schafer Memorial. Humphreys was sent by her national association to that event, and finished a disappointing 18th, well below the sixth spot needed for Canada to earn an Olympic berth.

 

[Icetigger]

Your stretching to the point of being offensive. Comparing Dave's comments belittles and minimizes blatant hate, sexual harassment and abuse, and bullying.

I disagree. Of course sexual harassment and abuse is different/more serious. But within the context of a rink or workplace, a campaign of continual use of a derogatory nickname, rumour-mongering about an individual, and a racialised gender based attack on social media would be bullying as far as I am concerned.

 

[Polaris]

I find it highly ironic that posters bitch about TSL all the time, yet still here we are, posting in the TSL thread.

Like it or not, TSL is relevant.

 

[Foolhardy Ham Lint]

I find it highly ironic that posters bitch about TSL all the time, yet still here we are, posting in the TSL thread.

Like it or not, TSL is relevant.

At least it is situated in The Trash Can where it belongs.

 

[Wyliefan]

I find it highly ironic that posters bitch about TSL all the time, yet still here we are, posting in the TSL thread.

Like it or not, TSL is relevant.

Only in the way that a mosquito that won't quit buzzing around you is relevant.

 

[Willin]

I mean, I don't like the show, but I love the drama around it. Trainwrecks of their own creation are my thing.

 

[CaliSteve]

I mean, I don't like the show, but I love the drama around it. Trainwrecks of their own creation are my thing.

Almost everyone likes the drama and tea, except when they say something about a skater we like.

 

[Icetigger]

Almost everyone likes the drama and tea, except when they say something about a skater we like.

Virtually all of the objections I have about The Skating Lesson are about comments made about skaters I don't have any much interest in or really like: it's completely to do with Dave Lease being unfair and vindictive, and has nothing to do with who he is being unfair and vindictive towards. I think most people are the same, but maybe not yourself.

 

[Tavi]

TSL just did a really interesting interview with Misha Ge.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=kDBTJ_ZG9e8

 

[bardtoob]

TSL just did a really interesting interview with Misha Ge.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=kDBTJ_ZG9e8

Did they make sexist comments about his clothes or call him an ethnic novelty act?

 

[B.Cooper]

I used my free speech to point out that within a working or sporting environment Dave Lease's behaviour towards Ashley Wagner would be worth reporting. I stand by that; and that opinion is not going to change by you pointing out a situation I am acknowledging as hypothetical, and have always presented as hypothetical, is indeed hypothetical.I really don't know what your point is, or think that you have one..... I've put the parts of the original posts that make the relevant statements hypothetical (from a grammatical point of view) in bold to help you out.

Dave Lease has made many statements over the years about athletes, not only figure skaters, but gymnasts as well, and although I am not sure what he says would fall into something that Safe Sport would pursue, as another poster stated above, as Safe Sport has a defined mission statement.

There is no doubt that many of his statements, not just from his old blog/website... "Aunt Joyce's Ice Cream Stand", and more recently, in social media and TSL, both written and stated, have crossed the line of decency, and perhaps into areas of defamation of character/libel/slander, which falls into "tort" law, i.e. civil law, while cyberbullying can be addressed under both civil and criminal law.

“Charlie Skinner was crazy. He identified with Don Quixote, an old man with dementia who thought he could save the world from an epidemic of incivility simply by acting like a knight. His religion was decency, and he spent a lifetime fighting its enemies.” Will McAvoy "The Newsroom"