The Skating Lesson 2018/2019

[Foolhardy Ham Lint]

Whether Gracie Gold does well or not (based on certain people's expectations) is irrelevant to me. The fact that she is choosing to do this for herself alone, is a victory in my books.

It reminds me of Midori Ito's eligible career (which had a fair degree of public and private heartbreak mixed with fabulous success), and how she looked at her most joyous when she skated at the Adult International in Oberstdorf.

 

[Amantide]

Yet, when I first saw her at the 2012 Junior Worlds (she won, Gracie Gold was second), it was painfully obvious that her technique would not get her through puberty. Lipnitskaya had Eteri technique...small, muscled (lots of upper body assistance), pre-rotated jumps (with rocket rotations) that barely got off the ice.

This technique only works with tiny pre-pubescent bodies. Yulia arrived at the Sochi Games right at the end of the usefulness of the technique she had been taught, because she was growing. We literally watched her hit the wall at the Sochi Games. She was never a factor after.

You're right about the technique issues. I do not agree that was a factor for Yulia in Sochi though.
That came after but she nailed the EC just a month before, and she did the same in the team event. Yulia in Sochi was totally a psychological issue. Too much stress, too much pressure to win, too many expectations. We see them as robots (some even call them as such to bash them), but they are not.

If Yulia really wanted to continue competing and was happy with it, I actually believe she could've done it. Maybe not becoming a Olympic Champion, but with all her growing problems and injuries, one of the best Yulia I've seen was in her last competition in Moscow, in the SP.

I think she just wasn't happy with skating anymore. I do miss her, but I am happy that she took the decision to quit and do something else in her life, hopefully making her live better and healthier.

 

[MK's Winter]

Whether Gracie Gold does well or not (based on certain people's expectations) is irrelevant to me. The fact that she is choosing to do this for herself alone, is a victory in my books.

It reminds me of Midori Ito's eligible career (which had a fair degree of public and private heartbreak mixed with fabulous success), and how she looked at her most joyous when she skated at the Adult International in Oberstdorf.

She wasn’t going to be ready by regionals or sectionals. You do realize that’s why she is competing here- it gets her a bye to Nationals. I think they should have waived qualification for her. I still think a slow wade is the way to go. If she does not do well here - by her expectations, I worry about the impact mentally.....

 

[Deleted member 53443]

They updated the intro yay! Now it's skaters who actually compete today.

I thought the last one on Skate Canada was pretty good, gonna listen to the one on Helsinki now.

 

[CaliSteve]

They updated the intro yay! Now it's skaters who actually compete today.

I thought the last one on Skate Canada was pretty good, gonna listen to the one on Helsinki now.

They should do a new intro every season.

 

[Deleted member 53443]

If Guarise/Venerucci's exhibition program is risqué and inappropriate because of the metoo era as Jonathan insinuates, we are in a sad state of affairs. I can't take that as anything but a funny, sexy and great exhib program.

 

[Firedancer]

Interview with James and Cipres is up:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ge7Z8q78xOE

 

[MK's Winter]

NHK Recap:

https://youtu.be/1iKSencWQjw

 

[happycamper2554]

NHK Recap:

https://youtu.be/1iKSencWQjw

Anyone else think they are being overly harsh on Tarah Kayne.

 

[MK's Winter]

Anyone else think they are being overly harsh on Tarah Kayne.

As someone who used to skate- they are right about her salchow technique. Her free leg swings wide and then she pulls in too close. I actually use to force rotation that way. She has hit her threshold in the jumps department unfortunately. While Delilah has improved the twist- she is not a jump coach. US Pairs needs a major revamp ala our dance program.

 

[sk8nlizard]

I loved myself some edge jumps. 2a was my fave...I would do them one after another. Probably why I am so critical of axel technique. Hated the lutz. Could do it but always felt so much pressure to be on the right edge. I have seen some great video of Nathan landing the 3a. It just generally looks so messy in competition.

Just have to chime in that double axel was one of my favorite jumps as well! I actually had a straight edge take off, I tried to learn the skid but couldn’t get the timing. Because of the straight edge my double axel could either be amazing or horrific but it was still my favorite jump. Toe was my nemesis....I was terrible at them! I would have edge jumped all day if given the chance!

 

[Cleo1782]

Just have to chime in that double axel was one of my favorite jumps as well! I actually had a straight edge take off, I tried to learn the skid but couldn’t get the timing. Because of the straight edge my double axel could either be amazing or horrific but it was still my favorite jump. Toe was my nemesis....I was terrible at them! I would have edge jumped all day if given the chance!

I learned from a straight edge but eventually could do it from both ways. If I was doing a 2a2a back in the day when that was thing without anything but your landing edge I had to do it on a circle but it was not like a Tuk style circle more discreet. Cindy Caprel was my singles coach then Fassi, but I learned it from Cindy. I never missed a 2a all the other triples outside the sal and loop were like It's weird because my best doubles were toe related but with 3's it was all edge.

 

[layman]

What do these two have against the Wheaton School of Ice Dance? Two weeks in a row the teams medal on the Grand Prix and two weeks in a row Dave and his sidekick trash talk and disparage the teams saying that they have no talent and are mismatched. Obviously this is not true. The teams would not be medaling on the Grand Prix (and almost every other competition they enter) if this were true. I am not sure why Dave Lease constantly puts these teams down and disparages their accomplishments. He did the same thing to the Shibutanis. It is getting ridiculous.

 

[Tavi]

So am I the only one who thinks TSL has made some positive improvements recently? Although the recaps are still long, to me they seem better paced and more focused, and although both Dave and Jonathan are definitely still opinionated - and their opinions may rub many the wrong way - there’s less gratuitous snark. Overall they seem to be striving to keep the tone more professional, which I appreciate. I also like the +5/-5 series Dave is doing.

 

[layman]

So am I the only one who thinks TSL has made some positive improvements recently? Although the recaps are still long, to me they seem better paced and more focused, and although both Dave and Jonathan are definitely still opinionated - and their opinions may rub many the wrong way - there’s less gratuitous snark. Overall they seem to be striving to keep the tone more professional, which I appreciate. I also like the +5/-5 series Dave is doing.

Wishful thinking. They are just as vicious, snide and ignorant as ever. As "journalists" they are frauds. How many legitimate journalists spend so much time talking about people's backsides, hair, makeup, dress and who Nicolai Morosov is currently sleeping with? This is not journalism but gossip mongering plain and simple.

Time and time again they reveal their ignorance (don't understand how the Wheaton teams are hitting all the key points and earning the highest levels), lack of journalistic integrity and prejudice.

Furthermore these two are deadly dull. You have to sit through (and sift through) hours of nonsense for a moment or two of serious infomation.

I will agree that the plus5/minus five series is a step up but they were starting from such a low level to begin with.

 

[Tavi]

Wishful thinking. They are just as vicious, snide and ignorant as ever. As "journalists" they are frauds. How many legitimate journalists spend so much time talking about people's backsides, hair, makeup, dress and who Nicolai Morosov is currently sleeping with? This is not journalism but gossip mongering plain and simple.

Time and time again they reveal their ignorance (don't understand how the Wheaton teams are hitting all the key points and earning the highest levels), lack of journalistic integrity and prejudice.

I will agree that the plus5/minus five series is a step up but they were starting from such a low level to begin with.

I think it’s fine if you have a different opinion than I - as you obviously do - but it’s not wishful thinking on my part, just my observation.

I’m kind of curious, though - if you think they’re ignorant and frauds and all the rest of it, why do you listen?

 

[layman]

I think it’s fine if you have a different opinion than I - as you obviously do - but it’s not wishful thinking on my part, just my observation.

I’m kind of curious, though - if you think they’re ignorant and frauds and all the rest of it, why do you listen?

Good question. I have been asking myself the same thing. Perhaps it's the lack of skating news (with the closure of Ice Network and the lack of TV coverage).

I will admit that if you wade through a lot of the filth they spew, they do occasionally come up with a nugget of information...they were the first to spill the news that Hawayek and Baker had suffered an injury during the summer that delayed their season. People inside the skating world are obviously talking to these two, but if this is a reflection of how the sport really is on the inside, I think I would rather stay on the outside.

I recently found another skating related podcast where the commentators seem far more knowledgeable, fair, and interesting than Dave and Jonathan, Skate Talk Online (often featuring PJ Kwong):
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCP-_fFgw86VzObIbitxoXgA

I am going to switch my viewing to this channel.

Update:
Just cancelled my subscription to the Skating Lesson.

 

[laviemn]

So am I the only one who thinks TSL has made some positive improvements recently? Although the recaps are still long, to me they seem better paced and more focused, and although both Dave and Jonathan are definitely still opinionated - and their opinions may rub many the wrong way - there’s less gratuitous snark. Overall they seem to be striving to keep the tone more professional, which I appreciate. I also like the +5/-5 series Dave is doing.

Dave disliked most of the programs last season , so he complained incessantly in every recap and rambled endlessly about anything that popped into his head. It seemed like he didn't really want to talk about the skating. He seems a lot more positive and excited about the programs this season. I suspect finishing his MBA this summer has made him less jittery and distracted. The recaps are much better and credit where it's due, the judging series is good content and his interviews are excellent when he strikes the right vibe with the guest.

 

[annie720]

So am I the only one who thinks TSL has made some positive improvements recently? Although the recaps are still long, to me they seem better paced and more focused, and although both Dave and Jonathan are definitely still opinionated - and their opinions may rub many the wrong way - there’s less gratuitous snark. Overall they seem to be striving to keep the tone more professional, which I appreciate. I also like the +5/-5 series Dave is doing.

Um, maybe.... a little. Technically, I found the audio to be so much better this week. It was nice not to have to constantly adjust the volume between the two of them.

What do these two have against the Wheaton School of Ice Dance? Two weeks in a row the teams medal on the Grand Prix and two weeks in a row Dave and his sidekick trash talk and disparage the teams saying that they have no talent and are mismatched. Obviously this is not true. The teams would not be medaling on the Grand Prix (and almost every other competition they enter) if this were true. I am not sure why Dave Lease constantly puts these teams down and disparages their accomplishments. He did the same thing to the Shibutanis. It is getting ridiculous.

I didn't catch the Helsinki show, but I agree somewhat about what they said about the Parsons this week. And I have ties to the Wheaton area and usually pull for their skaters. For some reason, the Parsons aren't working as well for me as a team this season, and it might be the size thing. With Hawayek Baker, his slightness is apparent to me initially, but I forget about it when they start skating. With the Parsons, I can't seem to shake it this season. I do agree that he's the stronger skater and is the one my eyes go to.

 

[layman]

...I didn't catch the Helsinki show, but I agree somewhat about what they said about the Parsons this week. And I have ties to the Wheaton area and usually pull for their skaters. For some reason, the Parsons aren't working as well for me as a team this season, and it might be the size thing. With Hawayek Baker, his slightness is apparent to me initially, but I forget about it when they start skating. With the Parsons, I can't seem to shake it this season. I do agree that he's the stronger skater and is the one my eyes go to.

I appreciate the way you expressed that opinion without disparaging the team or belittling their (considerable) accomplishments.

I respectfully disagree. Height difference (or lack thereof) is far less important under IJS than under 6.0. Davis and White nor Virtue and Moir would have risen the way they did under 6.0 because the teams lacked height difference. That's thankfully no longer an issue technically (even if it is to some aesthetically).

Furthermore, the Parsons are beautifully matched. They are indeed the same height but few teams have ever displayed such unison and matching lines. They are equally skilled technically. Watch how much speed and power they both get from very simple pushes. They have tremendous ice coverage. Both siblings skate way down in their knees. They have exquisite knees that gives their stroking a lilting, muscular, organic quality. They always skate with great passion and attack. They never hold back or play it safe (in this they remind me a great deal of the Dushesnays). They skate really close together, in close, difficult positions, something you only see from the most experienced teams (I think they have been skating together for a decade). They have tremendous skill using their blades. That is why they always hit those key points and earn the highest levels in their elements. They are not getting any gifts from the judges but are rather using their god given gifts and the skills their coaches taught them. The Parsons work hard. They are earning those medals and deserve all the accolades that come their way.

 

[Tinami Amori]

So am I the only one who thinks TSL has made some positive improvements recently?

I think they are trying to be more professional and to stick to skating matters... but Dave just can't help himself to avoid being gossipy, patronizing and display personal bias. Sometimes it is not what he says, but how he says it. There is a difference to me between a critique (with intent to help skaters improve) and taking them down because of personal dislike of "something". We all do it.. but he is the one with a "public channel", so he should be more responsible.

 

[aml78]

She wasn’t going to be ready by regionals or sectionals. You do realize that’s why she is competing here- it gets her a bye to Nationals. I think they should have waived qualification for her. I still think a slow wade is the way to go. If she does not do well here - by her expectations, I worry about the impact mentally.....

I would expect if she is showing up here she has reasonable expectations for herself and has determined that she is in a mental state where she can handle a poorer performance. Likely because she’s is playing a long game and this is a means to an end. I would think she’s got a support system in place that includes doctors who are giving her strategies and mechanisms to deal with what’s going to come at her. Instead of assuming she doesn’t know what she’s getting herself into, let’s assume she does and that she is putting the pieces in place to make this comeback successful on her terms.

 

[StitchMonkey]

So am I the only one who thinks TSL has made some positive improvements recently? Although the recaps are still long, to me they seem better paced and more focused, and although both Dave and Jonathan are definitely still opinionated - and their opinions may rub many the wrong way - there’s less gratuitous snark. Overall they seem to be striving to keep the tone more professional, which I appreciate. I also like the +5/-5 series Dave is doing.

I have noticed... i just did not want to speak up. I think they are trying to focus on the positives more. If they don't like a skaters program, they seem to be trying to talk more about what the skaters strengths are and what would enhance that, rather than just just trashing the programs.

I also noticed that Jonathan go edited a few times in the latest episode.

Frankly I think they got some feedback a few months ago and actually listen.

 

[aftershocks]

So am I the only one who thinks TSL has made some positive improvements recently? Although the recaps are still long, to me they seem better paced and more focused, and although both Dave and Jonathan are definitely still opinionated - and their opinions may rub many the wrong way - there’s less gratuitous snark. Overall they seem to be striving to keep the tone more professional, which I appreciate. I also like the +5/-5 series Dave is doing.

TSL has got some focused, professional competition so DL is obviously trying to scramble. As ever, DL is brashly hanging on by the seat of his pants with his huge ego intact. He's doing everything he can to pretend he's trying to shed his negative behavior. He's being helped by people who like him or who admire his passion for the sport. He has offended me once too often so I'm not going to give him anymore passes or ever forget his nasty, heedless, intentional mocking of Starr Andrews, and then his attempts to backtrack and act like he and Jonathan hadn't done anything petty and tasteless, instead of actually apologizing. DL still has yet to fully learn what professionalism and constructive criticism are all about.

Lots of people are unaware of Dave's worst excesses and his nasty dismissiveness of many skaters, including Jason Brown, Starr Andrews, Angela Wang, Boyang Jin, McNamara/Carpenter, Weav/Po, the Shibs, Bradie Tennell, Yuna Shiraiwa, Gracie Gold, the Knierims, et al. Having Benoit Richaud on when Dave has taken dismissive jabs at him in the past, was all kinds of scrambling to suck-up and to change his stripes. Even having J/C on when DL has often acted in a condescending way toward Jonathan's professed admiration for J/C, is rather pretentious, and an obvious scramble to land as many international skaters as possible. Most, if not all of the recent TSL guests likely are unaware of DL's petty habits and his oversized ego. DL should 'fess up about his boneheaded nastiness and actually apologize. But I'm not holding my breath. DL is surely tenacious, but actually a changed person, I doubt it.

The original guest interviews were built on the back of Jenny Kirk's contacts and her former status as a competitive skater. The interviews TSL gets now are through the help of his friendly enablers, and the value of the TSL platform which has continued because of DL, but was built up in the early years, largely due to Jenny's status, efforts and contacts. The guests (skaters and coaches) are the ones worth listening to, not DL. If he actually continues trying to genuinely change his behavior, that's good, but he's still lost my respect, full interest, and trust.

 

[Tavi]

TSL has got some focused, professional competition so DL is obviously trying to scramble. As ever, DL is brashly hanging on by the seat of his pants with his huge ego intact. He's doing everything he can to pretend he's trying to shed his negative behavior. He's being helped by people who like him or who admire his passion for the sport. He has offended me once too often so I'm not going to give him anymore passes or ever forget his nasty, heedless, intentional mocking of Starr Andrews, and then his attempts to backtrack and act like he and Jonathan hadn't done anything petty and tasteless, instead of actually apologizing. DL still has yet to fully learn what professionalism and constructive criticism are all about.

Lots of people are unaware of Dave's worst excesses and his nasty dismissiveness of many skaters, including Jason Brown, Starr Andrews, Boyang Jin, McNamara/Carpenter, Weav/Po, the Shibs, Bradie Tennell, Yuna Shiraiwa, Gracie Gold, the Knierims, et al. Having Benoit Richaud on when Dave has taken dismissive jabs at him in the past, was all kinds of scrambling to suck-up and to change his stripes. Even having J/C on when DL has often acted in a condescending way toward Jonathan's professed admiration for J/C, is rather pretentious, and an obvious scramble to land as many international skaters as possible. Most, if not all of these guests likely are unaware of DL's petty habits and his oversized ego. DL should 'fess up about his boneheaded nastiness and actually apologize. But I'm not holding my breath. DL is surely tenacious, but actually a changed person, I doubt it.

The original guest interviews were built on the back of Jenny Kirk's contacts and her former status as a competitive skater. The interviews TSL gets now are through the help of his friendly enablers, and the value of the TSL platform which has continued because of DL, but was built up in the early years, largely due to Jenny's status, efforts and contacts. The guests (skaters and coaches) are the ones worth listening to, not DL. If he actually continues trying to genuinely change his behavior, that's good, but he's still lost my respect, full interest, and trust.

You’re entitled to your opinion but I disagree with a lot of what you say. Dave has annoyed me plenty, but I also see value in his work, I see him attempting to improve, and I don’t think that every shred of anything good TSL ever did is due solely to Jenny Kirk. Though I enjoyed Jenny. As I said, that’s my opinion and you’re entitled to yours.

I have to say, though, I find it kind of ironic that some of comments here from you and other people who think Dave is pretty much the devil incarnate are as bad or worse than the things he’s allegedly said or done. You know that saying - two wrongs don’t make a right? I think it kind of applies here.

 

[aftershocks]

You’re entitled to your opinion but I disagree with a lot of what you say. Dave has annoyed me plenty, but I also see value in his work, I see him attempting to improve, and I don’t think that every shred of anything good TSL ever did is due solely to Jenny Kirk. Though I enjoyed Jenny. As I said, that’s my opinion and you’re entitled to yours.

I have to say, though, I find it kind of ironic that some of comments here from you and other people who think Dave is pretty much the devil incarnate are as bad or worse than the things he’s allegedly said or done. You know that saying - two wrongs don’t make a right? I think it kind of applies here.

The sport of figure skating is bigger than any one person. We all evolve in our thinking, or we don't. We all have our likes and dislikes, and a lot of the clueless bickering that occurs on Internet forums is indefensible. That's why I appreciate those who are admirably polite in their interactions on FSU. Personally, I always try to take a step back and attempt to realize what's going on and what my motivations are. Most of the time, it's just egos acting out. None of us are perfect. I try never to be personally disrespectful toward any skater. I always try to give skaters credit where it's due and to be thoughtful in my critiques. Sure, I have favorites, as we all do, and yes, I am opinionated. I definitely do not appreciate being bullied for speaking my mind, or constantly being purposely misunderstood with others trying to put words in my mouth. But I try to maintain an open mind, and to admit when I might be wrong or make a mistake.

So much of figure skating is subjective and emotional, so we are never all going to agree with each other 100 percent of the time. But it's helpful to recognize that negativity can get out of hand, and leads to nothing productive. The other thing is that there's quite a lot that goes on behind-the-scenes, which we are not privy to, or may hear snippets and pieces of but not have the full picture of, so it pays to take a thoughtful approach. We may get disappointed in skaters, but not really understand everything they are dealing with. As usual, it's a good thing to treat others, as we would like to be treated. Of course, it isn't a perfect world, so all of us are a work-in-progress.

Another important thing to recognize is that on skating forums, as fans we are speaking off-the-cuff, mostly anonymously. When you take a step of putting yourself out there on a public podcast, it behooves one to try and be more self-aware, more positive, and above all to take personal responsibility for one's actions, behaviors, and commentary. Whether anyone realizes it or not, I've often given DL a pass, and I've made positive suggestions for TSL in this thread. Perhaps you are unaware, but I have shared in different threads points of view DL has expressed that I've agreed with, but you can focus on what you choose to perceive as me attacking him. In actuality, DL has dismissively and irresponsibly voiced unnecessarily negative things about a number of athletes and people in the skating community. That kind of behavior should not go unchecked. He has crossed too many lines and gone too far for me. The worst is that he pretends not to realize what he has done, and he's never apologized. Whether it's his conscious intent or not, I find DL's behavior to be ego-driven, deceptive and untrustworthy. And I'm not alone in that assessment. Still, as I said, it's great if he's trying to improve, and I hope he will genuinely continue to heed the better angels of his nature. That's a challenge for all of us.

Figure skating is a tough, complicated and difficult sport, as can be the skating community itself, despite the fact there are so many kind and decent people involved in figure skating. Honestly, loving this sport for me is not about inciting gossip, name-dropping, dissing skaters when they are down, and stroking my own ego. It's truly first and foremost about supporting and encouraging all of the athletes who dream big, work hard, and give us so many lasting, memorable and magical moments.

 

[Tavi]

@aftershocks, my point wasn’t that Dave shouldn’t be criticized, and I didn’t say you’ve never said anything positive about TSL. My point is simply that tone matters, not just for TSL, but also for us anonymous posters writing off the cuff on Internet forums.

 

[el henry]

No one, but no one, but no one, has been more critical of Dave and Jonathan than I. So the long list of Dave’s sins can be safely, nay profitably be skipped. I know them, and I will never forget (although it wasn’t part of the show) “crying in a bathroom in Grenoble”.

I am finding the new TSL, particularly the plus 5 and minus 5 reviews, to actually be somewhat helpful. And I still like the interviews.

I am most and completely concerned that @mysticchic and @Tony Wheeler new YouTube channel, with all its wonderful interviews, be set up as the Anti-Dave. No, no, no, no, no

You can like their work *and* like TSL. People who think that criticism consists only of self-righteous snark, no, but that is NOT all of TSL’s audience, and we do them a disservice if we say you need to like one or the other.

You can like Coke *and* Pepsi

 

[mysticchic]

No one, but no one, but no one, has been more critical of Dave and Jonathan than I. So the long list of Dave’s sins can be safely, nay profitably be skipped. I know them, and I will never forget (although it wasn’t part of the show) “crying in a bathroom in Grenoble”.

I am finding the new TSL, particularly the plus 5 and minus 5 reviews, to actually be somewhat helpful. And I still like the interviews.

I am most and completely concerned that @mysticchic and @Tony Wheeler new YouTube channel, with all its wonderful interviews, be set up as the Anti-Dave. No, no, no, no, no

You can like their work *and* like TSL. People who think that criticism consists only of self-righteous snark, no, but that is NOT all of TSL’s audience, and we do them a disservice if we say you need to like one or the other.

You can like Coke *and* Pepsi

We aren't trying to be the anti Dave/TSL. We are doing what we want to do the way we want to do it.
I agree, you can like Coke and Pepsi.
Thank you!

 

[MK's Winter]

Nathan, Shoma, and Hanyu +5/-5

https://youtu.be/jdgtMiJxIR8