The Dance Hall 7: Tripping the Light Fantastic 2019-2020

[hlp728]

Maybe H/D should try and make this FD like the character of Ally is reflecting on her life with Jackson starting with Jackson’s version of “I’ll Never Love Again,” followed by “I Don’t Know What Love Is” or “Music to My Eyes” which both have a great waltz feel to them, then “Digging My Grave “ or “Out of Time” for a tempo change and a little southern rock, and then end with “Shallow.” This song order is goes from the ending of the movie to their first collaboration.

Another sequence of songs they could try is Jackson’s version of “I’ll Never Love Again, then either “I Don’t Know What Love Is,” “Music to My Eyes, or “Always Remember Us This Way, and end with Ally’s “I’ll Never Love Again.” Ally’s version of “I’ll Never Love Again” is akin to the Body Guard’s “I Will Always Love You.”

For me, I couldn’t figure out the story they were trying to convey from this version of A Star is Born. Movie wise, I love this updated version and the Judy Garland/James Mason one. I didn’t particularly like the Streisand/Kristfferson version, but I still bawled my eyes out.

If they decide to portray movie characters again, they should take a look at both versions of “The Thomas Crown Affair.”

 

[aka_gerbil]

In the future, I'm hoping that they're done with movie characters and will finally grant me my wish of them skating to Masquerade Waltz. I feel like their speed and power, height, and those long limbs are meant to go with that music.

I was not happy when V/M announced MR for 17-18. I had a personal dislike of the soundtrack to begin with thanks to someone who lived in the room next to mine in the dorm in college. She played the entire soundtrack all day, everyday for basically an entire school year whenever she was in her room and it wasn't quiet hours. I was lukewarm on the program when it debuted, in part because of how it ended. V/M were so great at growing programs though, and they changed by mind by nationals and the Olympics.

Repeating myself, but I see the potential in H/D's FD. They need to make a few changes to it, but they have time. It's over a month until the GPF and basically 3 months until nationals.

 

[manhn]

They only time they really captured the movie was the opening pose where they are sitting in the parking lot. When I saw that pose live in Vegas, I was pretty much readying myself to stand up. That did not happen and the home audience response was muted.

But I am willing it to become great so ASIB can be a warhorse and people can start whining. I am vastly disappointed that La La Land is not used that often. Of current soundtracks, friggin Burlesque is the most popular.

 

[RoseRed]

This meandering ending thing has happened before from Gadbois and I'm not sure if it's a MF choreographic thing or not, but it has to go.

I remember the first version of V&M's Moulin Rouge had a kind of "dribbling away to nothing" ending that had no power in it. I was so disappointed with the choice of music and the choreo. I actually commented on Virtue's insta (the only time I've ever commented on any skater's insta ever) saying they had to fix the ending and make it more dramatic. I'm sure they got the same feedback from many sources because they made massive changes including a super dramatic dramatic ending that, in a way, defined the whole dance and brought the audience to their feet.

In one interview I listened to MF said they had to include the love story, but then made some comment about V&M wanting the dramatic ending with a kind of implication that they insisted on it but it was not her choice.

Although I'm a huge V&M fan and love their MR, my point is really about the power (and IMO opinion necessity) of a dramatic and clearly defined ending to ANY program. The final ending pose makes a statement that can colour your view of the whole program as it did for me with H&D's FD. I liked quite a lot of it and then it dribbled away to nothing and I was left feeling that there was no real ending to the story and that they didn't know what they were doing.

From what I read at the time, the original ending to Moulin Rouge was what Tessa and Scott wanted/envisioned for that program. But they realized it wasn't working, so they changed it to be more dramatic. So I don't think it was just Marie-France.

 

[Khaleesi]

I like H/D, but this FD sucks TBH. The voiceovers are cringeworthy, their performance is overwrought, and the choreography is ok at best. I’m not sure what they do to fix it moving forward. I’m so happy Fear/Gibson came in third I love their FD!

 

[Viscaro]

From what I read at the time, the original ending to Moulin Rouge was what Tessa and Scott wanted/envisioned for that program. But they realized it wasn't working, so they changed it to be more dramatic. So I don't think it was just Marie-France.

David Wilson, one of the choreographer of V/M olympic FD, said that the ending came from the Manon Ballet by Sir McMillian (watch one beautiful version here : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2YSlk9l1qKg&t=90s), which is frankly one of the greatest pas de deux in ballet. The Manon story (originally a book by l'abbé Prévost) is also the source story for the Moulin Rouge movie (with approximately the same storyline) so that ending totally made sense.

Interestingly that pas de deux has a lot of movement that seems to be coming from ice dance, or, more specifically, pairs (the rotational jumps for example). The widow of McMillian said in a interview that he was indeed very inspired by watching olympic ice skating on TV for this PDD.

Edit : added RoseRed for clarity quote since a message was posted while I wrote this message.

 

[Bigbird]

Hurtado / Khaliavin had the lowest BV in FD

On another note, although I'm happy to see the Brits medal, 8.50 in SS is too generous.

That dance does not suit them at all. Zhulin is not the right coach for them. Zhulin is an aristocrat and his skaters have to fit a particular mold otherwise it just does not work. She did much better work when she was with the Gadbois group at least there they try to bring out the individual strengths of the pairs.

 

[clairecloutier]

That dance does not suit them at all. Zhulin is not the right coach for them. Zhulin is an aristocrat and his skaters have to fit a particular mold otherwise it just does not work. She did much better work when she was with the Gadbois group at least there they try to bring out the individual strengths of the pairs.

Can you elaborate on this? What do you see as Zhulin's artistocratic qualities, and what mold is he requiring skaters to fit into?

 

[laviemn]

They only time they really captured the movie was the opening pose where they are sitting in the parking lot. When I saw that pose live in Vegas, I was pretty much readying myself to stand up. That did not happen and the home audience response was muted.

This makes me think they're relying too much on people having seen the movie because I had no idea what I was suppose to get from that opening pose. It just seemed strange to me that she sat down on the ice.

They had to have chosen this soundtrack for Shallow and that dramatic, powerful climax, right? It doesn't have enough time to build, especially for people who aren't familiar with the characters. I have the impression that Alibi dominates the FD even though I'm not sure that's true in actual time allotment.

Their twizzles are becoming an increasing worry for me. They have been losing GOE to multiple teams with weaker twizzles, including H/B of all teams in the RD here. I think they've been slightly off in one segment for every competition since GPF with the exception of WTT. This cannot become an ongoing Poje-esque issue. Also, they do their twizzles as Alibi just peters out and the movement doesn't match the music, which doesn't help. The twizzles and the step sequences are where they should bank GOE to offset getting lower GOE on the lifts.

 

[firstflight]

H/B placing behind F/G is a pretty significant development. Hawayek looked pissed. H/K had the opposite meet that S/D had at Skate America. Maybe I was completely wrong and this is the season those two teams finally settle with a clear winner.

G/P made a huge impression early on in 16/17 and 18/19 as well but didn’t exactly carry the momentum through at worlds itself. Now as Canada’s number 1 and having beaten H/D, they have to considered medal contenders at worlds so I’m interested to see whether they finish stronger this season.

 

[Debbie S]

Go back to what worked int 2018 please.

Well, they can't do sultry/sexy/blues every season. I suspect they'll bring that style back for the next Oly season.

I think H/D just don't have a wide artistic range. That's also something I felt about the Shibs, although their options were limited as a sibling team. D/W and V/M had the ability to express a variety of music styles and portray different themes. H/D don't have that versatility. But they can't do the same style every year.

 

[PRlady]

I love Fear/GIBSON and would have been thrilled at their medal had it come at the expense of any other team. But H/B have finally found their groove and I agree with @Dobre that it is humor and parody. They actually need more OTT choreo in both pieces to make sure that gets across.

Jean-Luc is insanely talented and Kaitlyn has come a long way. They’re well ahead of C/P and M/C in maturity and expression. So I’m upset on their behalf - more than for H/D who, I’m beginning to think, have a taste problem. I like their blue-collar persona a lot, but that’s not equivalent to programs that are just not good.

 

[casken]

What did poor Kirill do to deserve being forced to wear the puffy shirt from Seinfeld?

 

[Peepsquick]

Maybe H/D should try and make this FD like the character of Ally is reflecting on her life with Jackson starting with Jackson’s version of “I’ll Never Love Again,” followed by “I Don’t Know What Love Is” or “Music to My Eyes” which both have a great waltz feel to them, then “Digging My Grave “ or “Out of Time” for a tempo change and a little southern rock, and then end with “Shallow.” This song order is goes from the ending of the movie to their first collaboration.

Another sequence of songs they could try is Jackson’s version of “I’ll Never Love Again, then either “I Don’t Know What Love Is,” “Music to My Eyes, or “Always Remember Us This Way, and end with Ally’s “I’ll Never Love Again.” Ally’s version of “I’ll Never Love Again” is akin to the Body Guard’s “I Will Always Love You.”

For me, I couldn’t figure out the story they were trying to convey from this version of A Star is Born. Movie wise, I love this updated version and the Judy Garland/James Mason one. I didn’t particularly like the Streisand/Kristfferson version, but I still bawled my eyes out.

If they decide to portray movie characters again, they should take a look at both versions of “The Thomas Crown Affair.”

Definitely!

 

[aftershocks]

Well now, after finally viewing the recent FD at SC, my word! As I was watching the final team, I was thinking, yep Hawayek/Baker are very good and I got into their FD and I got the humor in it. And I said to myself, they are not going to be caught by other current U.S. teams at U.S. Nationals, contrary to what was being bandied about in this thread recently. I personally wish H/B had picked something different for the RD, but they still rock their RD as well as their FD. I disagree with H/B being placed behind Fear/Gibson. As entertaining and engaging as Fear/Gibson are, that positioning seems a bit political to me. Now, I truly enjoy F/G and I'm happy for them, but I'm also a bit skeptical about the result. Maybe it goes back to Gadbois having too many teams they are trying to come up with creative ideas for. H/B rock both their programs to the hilt, despite neither concept being particularly original.

Okay, apparently it's open season on U.S. teams. Even before I saw what happened to H/B in the scoring, I was thinking that Gadbois has bit off more than they can chew, especially in taking on all three top American ice dance teams. Right about now, the overall dynamic is appearing to head south for those teams because of ice dance politics. Rusfed are intent on finagling to get two Russian teams on the podium at Worlds, and they don't care how they manage to make it happen. S/B are not better than a lot of teams, and neither are S/K.

Performance-wise, there was nothing H/B left on the table that should have had Fear/Gibson overtaking them at this competition, or even being that close. There must be some quid-pro-quo going on among the judges. In the past, the Shibs and H/D were often played against each other internationally to manuever perceptions and placements. It's just that the Shibs often performed too good to be taken down. Now we are in a different transitional period and the jockeying has heated up most cruelly. Apparently, U.S. teams are seen as expendable.

Taking another look at H/D's programs, I agree the FD doesn't serve them well. It looks to me like they must have heard about fan reactions, and not having enough turnaround from SA, they were very flat at SC. At SA, H/D sold the FD much better. Even then, on U.S. soil, S/B were allowed to win the FD ahead of H/D! That had to be the major factor affecting H/D's confidence going into SC without enough turnaround time. I like H/D's RD and I think that Monroe/DiMaggio concept suits them, although some fans are complaining about one of the music choices for that program. Bottom line, H/D should probably work on tweaking their RD and scrap their FD for something more impactful that actually enhances their talents. This result here is sadly sounding a death knell to their season (if they don't make some changes).

It will be interesting to see how Chock/Bates are now going to be treated and scored internationally, looking at how H/D and H/B have been pushed down. OTOH, I'm so happy for Gilles/Poirier. They have worked so hard for so many years and have been so innovative and not always properly rewarded. Because of H/D not slam-dunking with the right material though, G/P didn't have to do too much to win their first gold medal at SC. The scores weren't that high, and I think G/P's last year's FD (which was in a similar vein, was even better), so this result for G/P doesn't mean the international judges will be slating G/P above the Russians S/K and S/B going forward. Ice dance politics as we used to know it appears to be back into full swing -- alive and well, and kicking!

 

[oleada]

I’m not an H/B fan but their SD was the first time I found them enjoyable. But then, their FD felt 10 minutes long. It just dragged and felt heavy. I’m not surprised they lost to F/G who skated really well and had a fun and engaging FD. Even my husband who couldn’t care less about skating got into it.

On another note, Kaitlyn’s FD costume is just super unflattering. She looks heavy and I thought it looked like a cheap vampire Halloween costume. She’s too pretty and petite for something like that.

 

[Khaleesi]

But they can't do the same style every year.

Why not? As much as I love P/C I wouldn’t say their FDs have been radically different every year. And judges and fans don’t seem to mind maybe it’ll be the same case for H/D.

 

[aftershocks]

I think a lot of new fans on social media (who only got to know there was a thing called figure skating at 2018 Olympics) seemed to consider H/D's Romeo & Juliet program as an imitation to the untouchable V/M. The actual quality of that program & the StaLiB incident & Zach's not so pleasant remarks & being American all didn't help.

Plus, after V/M's retirement, many of their fans took S/B as the next team to uber - and they probably felt that H/D robbed S/B's bronze medal at Worlds.

As for uber matrix, a perfect example is this article. (I believe this has already been posted in an early dance thread but it's too hilarious not to post it again)

I don't like you, Madison Hubbell

Happy Halloween I don't know these people, but it's a bunch of biathletes dressed up as figure skaters for Halloween. Now that ice d...

dubemoir.blogspot.com

Thanks for posting about this. However, what a lot of Johnny-come-lately so-called 'fans' think on social media, should have absolutely no bearing on judges' perceptions and scoring assessments.

 

[aftershocks]

Since Davis/White retired, I feel like there's been a strange thing going on in U.S. ice dance, wherein the current top team has seldom been the trendy/"cool" team favored by fans. First after D/W retired, Chock/Bates were on top, but many fans criticized them and preferred the Shibs. Then the Shibs were on top for a couple years, but many fans criticized them for being too conservative and started to prefer Hubbell/Donohue. (I even remember a tweet to the effect that all the "cool kids" liked Hubbell/Donohue and not the Shibs.) Then H/D took over as the top team--only to have fan sentiment/preference turn back to Chock/Bates. I find it to be a weird cycle. There have been certain reasons for all the turns in sentiment, but it's still rather odd--and must feel confusing to the teams involved.

Right. One of the issues is that the U.S. is a big country with a lot of talented skaters across disciplines that in general have a lot of depth. Meanwhile, U.S. fans are rather fickle, and they don't generally line up gung-ho behind U.S. skaters. There are quite a number of U.S. fans who favorite international skaters and talk down on U.S. skaters. Add to that the resentment we sometimes see directed against U.S. skaters for somehow having some kind of advantage, or at least the perception of having an advantage because of being from the U.S., when in fact advantages vary among individual skaters regardless of where they come from.

The other part of this is that USFS is not skillful at politicking. I remember a former USFS official (as well as Frank Carroll) who were both separately interviewed on TSL a number of years ago, and both of them pointed out that the U.S. has historically not been good at knowing how to play politics on behalf of their skaters, especially not during the days of European bloc-judging. The former official pointed out that USFS typically felt that playing fair was the best thing to do, and that U.S. skaters would win on their merits. But as we know, that's not the case. Too many other factors are involved, including venue, practice output, judging panel, depth of talent among entries in each discipline, skating order, program selection and packaging, perceptions, rep, momentum, buzz, veteran status, skill level, performance level at each event, etc. And that's even without adding in the point-maneuvering.

If the U.S. was so good at politics and were involved in 'home-cooking' to any great degree, we would have seen Haven/Brandon top Pavluchenko/Khodykin last weekend for the silver medal after H&B's sparkling and well-skated fp.

As far as ice dance, quite a lot is going on right now. With Davis/White gone, there's been a bit of backlash against seeing another U.S. team advance to top contention. It seems to me that there was an attempt afoot previously to pit H/D against the Shibs in order to take the Shibs down so that a Russian team could sneak into podium position. Now that the Shibs are gone, H/D's confidence seems to have been affected, even as the skating community seems to be piling on and sending heave-ho messages against H/D, in favor of the Russians.

Meanwhile, Chock/Bates coming back strong and opening eyes last season, has also not boded well for H/D, especially not in terms of their confidence. In addition, Gadbois have too many teams to be able to come up with the best creative ideas for every team every season. The fact that all three top U.S. teams are at Gadbois is not seeming to work out as well as it did when H/D were the only U.S. team in that camp, or when there was only H/D and H/B. In general, Rusfed and Eurocentric fans are fed up with North American teams being on top or always in top podium contention. Even though P/C are from France, they are part of the North American juggernaut since they train in Montreal and have merged British/Russian/French and North American ice dance techniques and aesthetics (recently discussed by Haguenauer on TSL).

 

[clairecloutier]

I definitely don't agree with the idea that Hubbell/Donohue are limited in range. They've done many, many styles successfully in their years together: Blues (Joe Cocker, Beth Hart), flamenco, electronic rock (Tron), Latin (Talya Ferro), art rock (Queen), hip-hop/funk (their 2016-17 sp), lyrical ballads ("Hallelujah", "Can't Help Falling in Love"), and more. Their 2018 blues FD is their most successful program, sure. But it's just one of many good programs from them, and it's certainly not the only thing they can do.

Back in, I think, their first or second season together, H/D did an IceNetwork interview with Jean-Christophe Berlot in which they said that, for them, ice dance was always going to be about the passionate connection between 2 people (in their case, a man and woman). And I do think that remains the common thread going through the majority of their programs, but they are certainly able to handle different styles or genres.

 

[aftershocks]

Camden Pulkinen after the short program.

Camden's reaction was so cute and sweet. But he overplayed it IMO. The judges' clear response was, "If you don't think you deserve such high marks, we won't give them to you next time!" And they sure as hell didn't, eh! Camden has better program composition and greater aesthetic skills than Tanaka, even despite the couple of mistakes by Camden in the fp. Tanaka made mistakes in both programs and was overscored on PCS in both too, but especially in the fp. Camden should still have nabbed bronze.

 

[aftershocks]

Well, they've got time to try to make the free sell better before Cup of China, though not a ton of time.

Uh, they sold their FD and their RD, IMHO. Even Patch and Marie-France had no words for H/B when they looked to their coaches for answers with shocked looks on their faces.

We could call this event the one-two take down punch in ice dance this season. As I said, I'm happy for G/P and F/G, but that doesn't make the result any easier to swallow. I think H/D knew they didn't perform as well as they had at SA, and they seemed anxious in the kiss 'n cry even before their marks came up. Meanwhile, H/B were blindsided by the outcome.

So all the talk about H/B gonna be overtaken by C/P at U.S. Nationals, while not actually going to happen, does eat away perception-wise. Some fans here obviously simply don't like H/B regardless.

 

[aftershocks]

(And can I say it’s a bit ironic that the judges turn against H/D on this piece, which is a bit different, while rewarding the usually creative G/P for going with a lyrical, slow song with pastel costumes? Nothing against G/P—I do like their FD—I just find the judges’ preference interesting.)

I agree that I don't think either of H/D's programs are as bad for them as people have been expressing. H/D just weren't selling the FD as well as last weekend. It seemed more flat, and they seemed less confident. I think the programs need tweaking, but probably the FD won't be scrapped altogether. I think a lot of the critiques against H/D are OTT. I do think it was not a good sign for H/D to lose in the FD to Step/Buk at SA (H/D's home ice). If USFS knew anything about effective politicking, it shouldn't have happened on H/D's home turf. If would never happen that way for Russians in Russia, nor for Canadians in Canada. H/D are working an uphill battle against negativity, added to Chock/ Bate's renaissance.

I like Gilles/Poirier's FD from last season better. I am happy though for G/P and F/G, but sad for H/D and H/B. Let's face it that G/P have been wandering in the wilderness for a long, long time stuck behind two established compatriot teams, one of whom came back last quad and upended some of G/P's momentum and hopes for that quad. Now being the front-running Canadian team won't make G/P's task any easier, with the Russians pushing up not one, but two Russian teams for the podium. The scores weren't that high at SC in the FD, which is a sign that G/P aren't necessarily contending for GPF and World podiums. Let's see how it all plays out.

 

[Dobre]

A Star is Born. The story is all about her rise & his fall, correct? (I've seen two versions, and I hear wonderful things about the recent film from people who cried watching it so I have been meaning to watch it, but I guess I haven't been motivated enough because I don't really like the plot of the story. My problem, not the films', as obviously the story is a classic). Anyway, I guess I would say that this main theme--her rise & his fall--hasn't struck me while watching the program. At what point in the program is the star born, for example?

I've been noticing the attempt to build a relationship in the program, which is good. But it's not just a relationship story. It's a doomed relationship story. About people with ambitions and broken dreams. Maybe the rise and fall could come across more powerfully?

Also, what does the first voiceover say? It's doesn't come across clearly enough for Mom & I to understand it.

 

[Dobre]

On a completely different note, Hawayek & Baker's exhibition today . . .

Yes, this is what makes them stand out from other dance teams. 1/6th of this amount of humor in their competitive programs would make them sell 100% with the audience. The programs have the quality and potential. All they need is that personality.

 

[skatingguy]

Camden's reaction was so cute and sweet. But he overplayed it IMO. The judges' clear response was, "If you don't think you deserve such high marks, we won't give them to you next time!" And they sure as hell didn't, eh! Camden has better program composition and greater aesthetic skills than Tanaka, even despite the couple of mistakes by Camden in the fp. Tanaka made mistakes in both programs and was overscored on PCS in both too, but especially in the fp. Camden should still have nabbed bronze.

But Pulkinen's PCS scores went up for the free skate.

 

[thvu]

But Pulkinen's PCS scores went up for the free skate.

You know @aftershocks only cares about facts that fit her narrative.

 

[Doggygirl]

A Star is Born. The story is all about her rise & his fall, correct? (I've seen two versions, and I hear wonderful things about the recent film from people who cried watching it so I have been meaning to watch it, but I guess I haven't been motivated enough because I don't really like the plot of the story. My problem, not the films', as obviously the story is a classic). Anyway, I guess I would say that this main theme--her rise & his fall--hasn't struck me while watching the program. At what point in the program is the star born, for example?

This program clearly needs a COSTUME CHANGE!!!

Just kidding. It's early, and not enough coffee has been consumed.

 

[RoyThree]

I'm surprised there hasn't been much (if any) discussion of Green/Parsons. Maybe it's just me, but I'm really starting to see some real connections/improvements between the two of them, and I think getting in front of the international judges is great for them. I think the costume changes this week were for the better. Not totally sold on the RD music yet, but really like the FD with some interesting lift positions. Admittedly, I've always been a fan of Michael's skating skills, so I might be a bit biased.

 

[skatingguy]

I'm surprised there hasn't been much (if any) discussion of Green/Parsons. Maybe it's just me, but I'm really starting to see some real connections/improvements between the two of them, and I think getting in front of the international judges is great for them. I think the costume changes this week were for the better. Not totally sold on the RD music yet, but really like the FD with some interesting lift positions. Admittedly, I've always been a fan of Michael's skating skills, so I might be a bit biased.

It seems too soon at this point to make much of judgement about them. I think they have an advantage compared to other new teams because they were training at the same rink with the same technique for many years. Maybe next season they'll be able to afford a dress for her instead having to use something so torn and faded.