The Dance Hall 6: We're All Off Our Rockers 2018-2019

[AngieNikodinovLove (ANL)]

What lifts do people like this season?

-I am happy to see McNamara & Carpenter's lift in the RD this season. They tried out a similar over-the-shoulder lift two years ago and had to scrap it, probably because it wasn't yet ready. Love that they have kept after it and added the secondary tango position for this year's RD.

-I love Nguyen & Kolesnik's final lift in their FD. The way it changes position with such ease & still allows her to fly.

-I like the quirky final position in Shpilevaya & Smirnov's FD. Didn't work out at Nationals, but most of the season it was great. Totally fit the offbeat look they were striving for.

-Ushakova & Nekrasov's execution of their lift--I want to say the last one in their FD, but it's been a while since I watched it--really impressed me at the JGPF. Definitely a +GOE element in my book.

-Also I like Monaghan & Razgulajev's low tango-style lift at the start of their RD. Fits the style beautifully, sets the mood, and nice speed of rotation by Nationals.

-And I like Guignard & Fabbri's low lift as well. Great control & flare.

I like Manta & Johnson's intentionally slow lift in Sweet Dreams.

And I like Chock & Bates lift in the free.. looks so difficult.

 

[Debbie S]

And I like Chock & Bates lift in the free.. looks so difficult.

Their lift in the RD is also amazing. I was worried the move to Montreal would result in less exciting lifts, but they haven't disappointed this season.
N/K also have some cool lifts, and I like the Browns' reverse-gender lift. Oona is a

 

[RoseRed]

What lifts do people like this season?

-I am happy to see McNamara & Carpenter's lift in the RD this season. They tried out a similar over-the-shoulder lift two years ago and had to scrap it, probably because it wasn't yet ready. Love that they have kept after it and added the secondary tango position for this year's RD.

-I love Nguyen & Kolesnik's final lift in their FD. The way it changes position with such ease & still allows her to fly.

-I like the quirky final position in Shpilevaya & Smirnov's FD. Didn't work out at Nationals, but most of the season it was great. Totally fit the offbeat look they were striving for.

-Ushakova & Nekrasov's execution of their lift--I want to say the last one in their FD, but it's been a while since I watched it--really impressed me at the JGPF. Definitely a +GOE element in my book.

-Also I like Monaghan & Razgulajev's low tango-style lift at the start of their RD. Fits the style beautifully, sets the mood, and nice speed of rotation by Nationals.

-And I like Guignard & Fabbri's low lift as well. Great control & flare.

I really like that one Lajoie/Lagha do where he's swinging her around in the FD. And Chock/Bates have a couple I really like in the FD.

 

[sharsk8s]

Gadbois lifts are the biggest hit or misses honestly. Like I am in love with p/c curve lift but don't like rotational one (plus it is the one that seems to give them the most trouble even though it looks the easiest). I agree that L/L opening lift is one of my favs this season

 

[Andora]

This lift from G&F is just stunning. With the music, it feels like she's flying with a classic movie mood to it. Most of their FD lifts are gorgeous this year, tbh.

I like L&L's rotational lift in both RD and FD.

 

[skatfan]

I love them, but Gilles/Poirier are very very bad when it comes to pulling stunts like this in warm ups

They did it at 4CCs in one of the warm-ups but the two teams (W/P and H/D) didn’t bite and kept their focus.

 

[cocotaffy]

They did it at 4CCs in one of the warm-ups but the two teams (W/P and H/D) didn’t bite and kept their focus.

At Internationaux de France, they were in the way of P/C rehearsing their FD too as you can see it in this video and from the opposite angle. First they zoomed quite close to most skaters even though 3/4 of the ring is actually empty and then the coaches have to yell before P/C starts their character step sequence. Tbh, the coaches had to yell at Hawayek too just before they drop for their low circular lift so I guess it does happen to most teams, it seems to be a regular occurrence with G/P though. For skaters out there, isn't it something one can learn ? They have to do those warm-up a lot so you would think they should have learnt by now how to be mindful of their surroundings, plus they can get injured too. I can't imagine them taking such a risk just for the sake of spooking or disturbing their competitors. Sounds dangerous and counter-productive.
Anyway, talking about lifts, G/P have had interesting lifts among which their last year James Bond lift, very cool. However, I'm still not sold on their last "Atlas" lift at the end of their FD this year. Still looks awkward, as well as their first hand stand lift at the beginning, doesn't seem to fit the program. This would fit into the category of an acrobatic lift for the sake of it.

 

[Dobre]

Most of the time, teams go out full blast during warm-ups. It is bravado but it is also their opportunity to be seen by judges & tech panel members before the event. Unless you are already at the top, then most teams have something to prove. Sometimes you see teams skip the drama, but they were all there once themselves. It is a lot of fun for the audience but also high risk because teams do not know one another's programs and many are not typically on the ice with as many of the fastest teams in the world at the same time. Also coaches are looking out for their athletes, and athletes are looking out for their partners. So you pretty much always hear someone yell (sometimes when it is necessary, sometimes because the coaches or athletes don't know the other teams' planned elements & direction so they aren't aware when said direction isn't really going to collide with their own athletes). Better safe than sorry. You do quite often see close calls. Mostly, though, I don't worry much with teams that negotiate the ice like they are in full practice arenas on a regular basis. It is more scary when you have athletes at a distinctly lower level, who simply don't have the same instincts and reaction speed as the top teams expect from another team (especially if athletes are distracted or flustered because they've just made a mistake or something). It goes both ways, I think. You can't expect everyone to react like your teammates back home. And if you aren't used to the high-speed warm-ups and/or competition practices, it takes some time and experience to get there. You really have to be alert. If you are used to them, then you have to keep in mind that not everyone has the same amount of that experience yet.

 

[MelDee]

David Molina is the TC for Worlds.

 

[yuna13fr]

David Molina is the TC for Worlds.

I remember him , last year at nhk he received threats on twitter.
He also judge a 4CC during the last quad.

 

[muffinplus]

Threats for what?

 

[shuilee]

V&M competed at NHK with Molina from France on the tech panel. We all know how ummm "passionate" V&M fans are.

 

[angi]

V&M competed at NHK with Molina from France on the tech panel. We all know how ummm "passionate" V&M fans are.

Please, he got comments from two internet trolls saying they'll be watching his judging closely, if this is what we consider "threats" than everyone using social media is getting threats on the daily.
Molina was called out for questionable scoring as well as for having social meetings with skaters he is judging which is ethically questionable at best (it's not that I think they are plotting anything on those dinners but that's not a good look for a judge). He is not Sharon Rogers but again, following his scoring patterns should make people feel uncomfortable.

 

[sharsk8s]

Do we know anything about his calls? Is he usually lenient or strict and does he show favoritism to any country?

 

[yuna13fr]

they weren't only two trolls but plenty. He filed a complaint in france, he couldn't address the issues publicly because of the isu policy. ( l'equipe wrote an article about it that's how i know).
Watch nhk 2017 no surprises or weird call.
He's only crime is to be french.
Let see what happens at the WC.

 

[muffinplus]

Not to condone the threats but maybe he shouldn't be so chummy with skaters / coaches( assume Gadbois) if he wants to avoid an appearance of overt bias...

 

[Peepsquick]

Not to condone the threats but maybe he shouldn't be so chummy with skaters / coaches( assume Gadbois) if he wants to avoid an appearance of overt bias...

I guess looking at his work should be more telling. Is he overtly biased?
Nothing excuses threats in my books.

 

[Dobre]

Do we know anything about his calls?

I believe the answer is that no we don't. According to the list below, at least, he isn't a caller aka technical specialist. He's a judge and a technical controller. Maybe he calls club events or national events in France but he isn't listed as an ISU or international technical specialist on the list linked below. (Rogers isn't an international caller either). So when Molina serves on a tech panel, he never makes the calls we initially see on the screen. He likely helps to make the final calls if both the technical specialist & assistant specialist disagree; but as casual fans, we don't really know anything about his technical calls.

https://www.isu.org/news/81-inside-...officials-for-season-2018-19?templateParam=15

 

[Debbie S]

Not entirely sure about this, but I think an official can't be both a TS and either a judge or TC. But a TC can be a judge and vice versa, and many are. I think there are different rules of eligibility and training for tech specialists than there are for controllers and judges.

In any event, as has been noted, a TC doesn't actually make the calls - can call for review of elements and can make the final determination if there is a dispute. And correct if an element is misidentified, i.e. a lift is called rotational when it's really a curve lift, a lutz jump is called a toe loop, a triple is called a double, etc.

 

[Lara111]

Russia has a new very promising team Konkina&Drozd. I hope they stay together.

 

[Dobre]

Their FD TES was below Ichilov & Davidovich. I think I'll wait & see. Early days.

Can anyone open the protocol sheet for the Open Ice Mall Cup?
http://icemallskating.com/wp-content/uploads/result/Open Ice Mall Cup 2019 ISU/index.htm

My computer says it can't because something may be formatted wrong? (Maybe the protocol just hasn't been posted for the FD yet). Anyway, I'm curious whether Evdokimova & Bazin's -1.00 is for a fall.

 

[Ena Grins]

I guess on a sport point of view, one would think the hardest the better to distinguish the best from the rest. However, I personally can't stand overly complicated and acrobatic lifts. Of course, being a super fan of P/C says it all I'd rather have the innovation coming from unusual position but one that is hold at least enough for it to express something. 20 positions a minute for instance just make no sense. I find Gadbois has done great at trying to find original lifts position, especially lower ones like many of P/C lifts, or striking one like their Mozart "Kiss lift" without sacrificing the musicality. Maybe the trick could be to increase the importance of a difficult entry and/or exit instead of focusing only on the lift positions.

This season, for whatever reason, I've gone back to loving the well-executed complicated acrobatic lifts. McNamara/Carpenter are a great example, not just the RD one mentioned on the last page but also the stationary lift in their FD was quite striking when I saw it live. Hubbell/Donohue FD stationary lift is also excellent IMO (though obviously better when it's actually stationary ).

 

[Lara111]

Their FD technical base value was below Ichilov & Davidovich. I think I'll wait & see. Early days.

Can anyone open the protocol sheet for the Open Ice Mall Cup?
http://icemallskating.com/wp-content/uploads/result/Open Ice Mall Cup 2019 ISU/index.htm

Yes. They look very cautious and I did not like the FD at all for them but they have so much potential in my opinion. I wish they were in Montreal though

 

[VGThuy]

I guess on a sport point of view, one would think the hardest the better to distinguish the best from the rest. However, I personally can't stand overly complicated and acrobatic lifts. Of course, being a super fan of P/C says it all I'd rather have the innovation coming from unusual position but one that is hold at least enough for it to express something. 20 positions a minute for instance just make no sense. I find Gadbois has done great at trying to find original lifts position, especially lower ones like many of P/C lifts, or striking one like their Mozart "Kiss lift" without sacrificing the musicality. Maybe the trick could be to increase the importance of a difficult entry and/or exit instead of focusing only on the lift positions.

I think a lot of the Igor/Marina lifts during Canton's heyday, especially from Davis/White, got old fast and were part of what some saw as elements having nothing to do with character and music (like steps, etc.). Now though, after more than 4 years of Gadbois, we're getting very simple looking lifts (some of the positions aren't even attractive) getting level 4s due to entrance/exits, etc. and obtaining high GOE while teams who were doing more complicated and well-executed lifts don't score as well because they aren't favored. It makes the lift scoring just seem political and dependent on hierarchy and favored status.

 

[Dobre]

while teams who were doing more complicated and well-executed lifts don't score as well because they aren't favored.

What are some complex, well-executed performances of lifts this season that you think merited/merit more GOE than they received?

 

[VGThuy]

What are some complex, well-executed performances of lifts this season that you think merited/merit more GOE than they received?

In Pyeongchang, I really didn't understand Chock/Bates lift scores compared to others who scored higher. I also think it's sort of weird how V/M's lifts scored the more-or-less the same as other teams because they were maxed out at +3 (some 2s) with other medal contenders. Looking at the Shibs, it's weird how their lifts in 2015-2016 started scoring higher as they gained favor. I wasn't complaining before, but it's just weird to observe. It's every team really. It seems GOEs on elements get higher across the board once a team moves up in ranks just like PCS unless a team has a reputation for being a bit weaker on an element (like WeaPo and twizzles).

 

[Dobre]

Do you have some examples this season, though, with the new GOE scale?

Maybe we can bring a little attention & to them here in this thread.

I agree that GOE rises with reputation; but also execution improves with time. New lifts improve. (W&P's split lift was far better at 4CCs this year than when I saw it live previously). And also the awe factor you get the first time you see a new lift sometimes fades over time so that we as audience members sometimes have to remind ourselves how awesome something is. One thing I liked about Pyeongchang was getting to see the audience react to elements some of us have been watching for years. Seeing some of that excitement we--as ice dance fans--may have had years earlier experienced for the first time by many members of an Olympic audience.

 

[starrynight]

Back in the past, David Molina used to post photos of the Gadbois crew to social media calling them the 'the dream team' etc. Obviously, him being French and friendly with Marie-France/Patrice etc raised some eyebrows. This was before the V/M comeback. See here and here. I personally think it's best if high level judges/technical controllers don't have public social media accounts.

Easy to see how that could encourage perceptions of bias. Although the impact of this is probably less now that all of the world's teams train there lol. Back in 2015 when he was making those postings, it was more of a bigger deal because fewer teams trained in Gadbois and links of bias could be more direct.

But if David is good friends with Marie-France and Patrice, maybe he will be more careful to provide H/D with some advance warning if there is any issues with the stationary lift at Worlds practices

 

[Peepsquick]

So entrance and exit seem to be what gives a lift a higher level or not as far as complexity goes. The rest is a matter of fans wanting to see more "spectacular" lifts. I have found that junior teams are the more likely to bring on original and difficult looking lifts.
Some examples of lifts that are surely complex but imo didn't end up making the performance better: V/M lift in their FD was of course spectacular on the athletic spectrum. For me it was awkward as in not elegant (once she ended up hunched forward in front of his nose). I am also not a fan of Piper and Paul's entrance lift in their FD. It looks artificial and doesn't mesh in with the rest ...

 

[The Observer]

I am also not a fan of Piper and Paul's entrance lift in their FD. It looks artificial and doesn't mesh in with the rest ...

I think Paul & Carol like to use that lift because I think they got it from Christopher Dean when he choreographed a program for Paul & Vanessa for 2010/2011 -- "Eleanor Rigby".