The Dance Hall 6: We're All Off Our Rockers 2018-2019

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GreenGan

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201
Why do you think Gilles & Poirier aren't getting scores such as theirs. (P.S. no haterzzz please.)
Well I was not the only one at Grenoble, so people might have different opinion than mine, but here goes.

It was my first time ever seeing a figure skating competition live, so I was kinda curious to really see what speed really was, how it looked, etc.
I paid a great attention on practice. First impression that stayed during the whole practice : P/C are the fastest of the practice. They generate speed with less effort, are faster than everyone with each cross over, and have more presence on the ice. G/P are not really fast, they're also quite small compared to P/C or Sinitsina (Katsalapov's not that tall).

During competition, though, P/C didn't use their maximum speed while performing the program, there was variation between slow and fast, but the maximum speed was more or less the same as S/K. G/P, once again, didn't strike me as fast, they were not slow, but fast they are not.

Concerning G/P's program, I really liked some move, the choreography is really clever and nicely thought, but they, on the other hand, didn't add much to it. I didn't see their connection, I didn't see an interpretation. During the performance, I was thinking "that move is so cool", "Wow, beautiful"; but also "outch ugly", "meh".. You see what I mean ? I wasn't taken by the performance, and was criticizing the program, not them. They skated pretty tight there I think, but here is my opinion.

I didn't see a lot of connection between Hawayek and Baker either. He's watching her a lot of the time, but it's more like he's worry about not getting too far from her, to stay in touch, to help her remain alongside him. There was not a lot of eye contact between them for example, she's focused on her move and the audience/judge, not looking a lot at him. It is also obvious he's better than her.

The Parsons are great skaters, and they do have connection. I wish they get rid of the low straight line lift which is just ugly, and skating to Build a Home in France with P/C skating after sure should have gotten them some stress but they skated well. I don't like the program, but kudos to them.

S/K were indeed good when they performed, especially the lifts. I watched Nikita as much as I watched Vika. This program is not my favourite but they're making something with it. And skating after P/C was hard.

I'm a P/C fan before all, they brought me into ice dance then figure skating even though I only went to a rink once in my life. So I was anxious and excited to see them live for the first time : Would I be disappointed ? How their FD is gonna be ? The first things that striked me was that they are tall. The tallest of this competition. They also have great charisma, they look like they take more place than just their body. Hard to describe.

The second things that striked me was Gabriella's charism : the only time I looked at Guillaume was during the choreographic step sequence, because he's sharper than her who was too gentle. Anger suits Guillaume well, Gabi not yet. I remember I thought "Oh yeah, he's the one everyone is supposed to watch". But damn, Gabriella was a Woman out there. With capital "W".

I wasn't transported by the program, it wasn't Build a Home in Boston, you see ? It was a good program, a mix between the love mood of Mozart and the contemporary choreo of "Build a home" with more sharpness. But it was the best of the competition by far. I remember I thought "they should get more than 127" so I was impressed when I saw 132 points, I didn't think they'd have all the level after the TR1 on their RD.
 

Peepsquick

Well-Known Member
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760
I prefer Catherine Papadakis' take on the matter, she declared that Z/G have taken Gabriella's place in the Final ;)
She is correct, as if P/C had competed in NHK, Z/G would have not been in the final!
So thank you P/C for giving your spot to Z/G :40beers:

I'm totally rooting for them... they definitely have the IT factor! Let's cross toes and fingers that knees mend ...
 

Miloune

Well-Known Member
Messages
1,639
They also have great charisma, they look like they take more place than just their body. Hard to describe.

Totally agree, it's like they own the ice. Like VM imo. It's the IT factor.

The second things that striked me was Gabriella's charism : the only time I looked at Guillaume was during the choreographic step sequence, because he's sharper than her who was too gentle. Anger suits Guillaume well, Gabi not yet. I remember I thought "Oh yeah, he's the one everyone is supposed to watch". But damn, Gabriella was a Woman out there. With capital "W".

I thought the choreographic step sequence was better during pratice, she was sharper. So let's hope they definetely move towards that mood for Euros (or nationals hahaha). Their synchronization is also something they have to improve, you can see at times that it's not yet perfect :rollin:.

I think it'll be a thing of beauty when it's mastered completely.
 

Tinami Amori

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20,156
There's also something in ice dance fandom which I call the 'Uber Matrix'. It goes like: I uber Team A, therefore I hate Team B because they might beat them, I like Team C because they are a non threatening ally of Team A who I have adopted to prove I like teams other than team A, so I hate Team D because they are a threat to Team C, I also love Team E because they might beat Team D, I also don't like Team F because while they won't beat Team A they do something better than them, so I will selectively support Team D but only if they can beat Team F. But if Team C or E get in the way of Team A I will also hate them.
This is great! and very true, and if one adds to this the likes and dislikes based more than on just skating, it would become "The Art of War of Figure Skating"... if Sun Tzu was a skating fan, he would be proud.. :D
 

Enchanted

Well-Known Member
Messages
1,762
Well I was not the only one at Grenoble, so people might have different opinion than mine, but here goes.

It was my first time ever seeing a figure skating competition live, so I was kinda curious to really see what speed really was, how it looked, etc.
I paid a great attention on practice. First impression that stayed during the whole practice : P/C are the fastest of the practice. They generate speed with less effort, are faster than everyone with each cross over, and have more presence on the ice. G/P are not really fast, they're also quite small compared to P/C or Sinitsina (Katsalapov's not that tall).

During competition, though, P/C didn't use their maximum speed while performing the program, there was variation between slow and fast, but the maximum speed was more or less the same as S/K. G/P, once again, didn't strike me as fast, they were not slow, but fast they are not.

Concerning G/P's program, I really liked some move, the choreography is really clever and nicely thought, but they, on the other hand, didn't add much to it. I didn't see their connection, I didn't see an interpretation. During the performance, I was thinking "that move is so cool", "Wow, beautiful"; but also "outch ugly", "meh".. You see what I mean ? I wasn't taken by the performance, and was criticizing the program, not them. They skated pretty tight there I think, but here is my opinion.

I didn't see a lot of connection between Hawayek and Baker either. He's watching her a lot of the time, but it's more like he's worry about not getting too far from her, to stay in touch, to help her remain alongside him. There was not a lot of eye contact between them for example, she's focused on her move and the audience/judge, not looking a lot at him. It is also obvious he's better than her.

The Parsons are great skaters, and they do have connection. I wish they get rid of the low straight line lift which is just ugly, and skating to Build a Home in France with P/C skating after sure should have gotten them some stress but they skated well. I don't like the program, but kudos to them.

S/K were indeed good when they performed, especially the lifts. I watched Nikita as much as I watched Vika. This program is not my favourite but they're making something with it. And skating after P/C was hard.

I'm a P/C fan before all, they brought me into ice dance then figure skating even though I only went to a rink once in my life. So I was anxious and excited to see them live for the first time : Would I be disappointed ? How their FD is gonna be ? The first things that striked me was that they are tall. The tallest of this competition. They also have great charisma, they look like they take more place than just their body. Hard to describe.

The second things that striked me was Gabriella's charism : the only time I looked at Guillaume was during the choreographic step sequence, because he's sharper than her who was too gentle. Anger suits Guillaume well, Gabi not yet. I remember I thought "Oh yeah, he's the one everyone is supposed to watch". But damn, Gabriella was a Woman out there. With capital "W".

I wasn't transported by the program, it wasn't Build a Home in Boston, you see ? It was a good program, a mix between the love mood of Mozart and the contemporary choreo of "Build a home" with more sharpness. But it was the best of the competition by far. I remember I thought "they should get more than 127" so I was impressed when I saw 132 points, I didn't think they'd have all the level after the TR1 on their RD.

I saw G/P in person at worlds in 2017 and felt they were very slow. Especially in the FD. Of course, that was almost two years ago, so they might have improved their speed. I remember being dissapointed with their skating. They were noticable weaker technically than some of their competitors.

As for comparing P/C’s performance at worlds 2016 to their performance here is not really fair because this was their first performance of the season. The new FD will get better by worlds.
 
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kittysk8ts

Well-Known Member
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1,820
Well I was not the only one at Grenoble, so people might have different opinion than mine, but here goes.

It was my first time ever seeing a figure skating competition live, so I was kinda curious to really see what speed really was, how it looked, etc.
I paid a great attention on practice. First impression that stayed during the whole practice : P/C are the fastest of the practice. They generate speed with less effort, are faster than everyone with each cross over, and have more presence on the ice. G/P are not really fast, they're also quite small compared to P/C or Sinitsina (Katsalapov's not that tall).

During competition, though, P/C didn't use their maximum speed while performing the program, there was variation between slow and fast, but the maximum speed was more or less the same as S/K. G/P, once again, didn't strike me as fast, they were not slow, but fast they are not.

Concerning G/P's program, I really liked some move, the choreography is really clever and nicely thought, but they, on the other hand, didn't add much to it. I didn't see their connection, I didn't see an interpretation. During the performance, I was thinking "that move is so cool", "Wow, beautiful"; but also "outch ugly", "meh".. You see what I mean ? I wasn't taken by the performance, and was criticizing the program, not them. They skated pretty tight there I think, but here is my opinion.

I didn't see a lot of connection between Hawayek and Baker either. He's watching her a lot of the time, but it's more like he's worry about not getting too far from her, to stay in touch, to help her remain alongside him. There was not a lot of eye contact between them for example, she's focused on her move and the audience/judge, not looking a lot at him. It is also obvious he's better than her.

The Parsons are great skaters, and they do have connection. I wish they get rid of the low straight line lift which is just ugly, and skating to Build a Home in France with P/C skating after sure should have gotten them some stress but they skated well. I don't like the program, but kudos to them.

S/K were indeed good when they performed, especially the lifts. I watched Nikita as much as I watched Vika. This program is not my favourite but they're making something with it. And skating after P/C was hard.

I'm a P/C fan before all, they brought me into ice dance then figure skating even though I only went to a rink once in my life. So I was anxious and excited to see them live for the first time : Would I be disappointed ? How their FD is gonna be ? The first things that striked me was that they are tall. The tallest of this competition. They also have great charisma, they look like they take more place than just their body. Hard to describe.

The second things that striked me was Gabriella's charism : the only time I looked at Guillaume was during the choreographic step sequence, because he's sharper than her who was too gentle. Anger suits Guillaume well, Gabi not yet. I remember I thought "Oh yeah, he's the one everyone is supposed to watch". But damn, Gabriella was a Woman out there. With capital "W".

I wasn't transported by the program, it wasn't Build a Home in Boston, you see ? It was a good program, a mix between the love mood of Mozart and the contemporary choreo of "Build a home" with more sharpness. But it was the best of the competition by far. I remember I thought "they should get more than 127" so I was impressed when I saw 132 points, I didn't think they'd have all the level after the TR1 on their RD.
Thank you for sharing your thoughts. So happy for you that you got to see your team. I can relate on so many levels. I think we all know exactly what you mean when you say “They also have great charisma, they look like they take more place than just their body.” It’s like the energy changes. So cool.
 

AngieNikodinovLove

Frangi & Piazza & Paul & Hektor & Theo. Oh My! 😝
Messages
12,671
Well I was not the only one at Grenoble, so people might have different opinion than mine, but here goes.

It was my first time ever seeing a figure skating competition live, so I was kinda curious to really see what speed really was, how it looked, etc.
I paid a great attention on practice. First impression that stayed during the whole practice : P/C are the fastest of the practice. They generate speed with less effort, are faster than everyone with each cross over, and have more presence on the ice. G/P are not really fast, they're also quite small compared to P/C or Sinitsina (Katsalapov's not that tall).

During competition, though, P/C didn't use their maximum speed while performing the program, there was variation between slow and fast, but the maximum speed was more or less the same as S/K. G/P, once again, didn't strike me as fast, they were not slow, but fast they are not.

Concerning G/P's program, I really liked some move, the choreography is really clever and nicely thought, but they, on the other hand, didn't add much to it. I didn't see their connection, I didn't see an interpretation. During the performance, I was thinking "that move is so cool", "Wow, beautiful"; but also "outch ugly", "meh".. You see what I mean ? I wasn't taken by the performance, and was criticizing the program, not them. They skated pretty tight there I think, but here is my opinion.

I didn't see a lot of connection between Hawayek and Baker either. He's watching her a lot of the time, but it's more like he's worry about not getting too far from her, to stay in touch, to help her remain alongside him. There was not a lot of eye contact between them for example, she's focused on her move and the audience/judge, not looking a lot at him. It is also obvious he's better than her.

The Parsons are great skaters, and they do have connection. I wish they get rid of the low straight line lift which is just ugly, and skating to Build a Home in France with P/C skating after sure should have gotten them some stress but they skated well. I don't like the program, but kudos to them.

S/K were indeed good when they performed, especially the lifts. I watched Nikita as much as I watched Vika. This program is not my favourite but they're making something with it. And skating after P/C was hard.

I'm a P/C fan before all, they brought me into ice dance then figure skating even though I only went to a rink once in my life. So I was anxious and excited to see them live for the first time : Would I be disappointed ? How their FD is gonna be ? The first things that striked me was that they are tall. The tallest of this competition. They also have great charisma, they look like they take more place than just their body. Hard to describe.

The second things that striked me was Gabriella's charism : the only time I looked at Guillaume was during the choreographic step sequence, because he's sharper than her who was too gentle. Anger suits Guillaume well, Gabi not yet. I remember I thought "Oh yeah, he's the one everyone is supposed to watch". But damn, Gabriella was a Woman out there. With capital "W".

I wasn't transported by the program, it wasn't Build a Home in Boston, you see ? It was a good program, a mix between the love mood of Mozart and the contemporary choreo of "Build a home" with more sharpness. But it was the best of the competition by far. I remember I thought "they should get more than 127" so I was impressed when I saw 132 points, I didn't think they'd have all the level after the TR1 on their RD.

Thank you so much for taking the time to explain what you witnessed to all of us. This is why I really appreciate the board.

:cheer2::cheer2:
 

mirage

Active Member
Messages
269
Piper >>> Vanessa

Vanessa probably has better skating skills, but Piper’s nowhere near as bad as some claim. Plus, Piper had much more charisma, better presentation, better posture and as a team, they have better programs.

And I would say that Vanessa was nowhere near as bad as some claimed.

Piper is much older than when Vanessa and Paul skated together. The posture and small presentation for V/P was far overblown, they were between 17 and 20 when they skated all their international programs together and still had a nice collection of work for their age.

If Piper can learn to skate in her 20's, then with another 7-8 years of skating in their 20's, Vanessa and Paul would have addressed their weaknesses and accomplished more than P/P have to this point at 27. Actually, I am not sure but I think they may have accomplished more by the time they stopped skating anyhow. V/P had 3 or 4 years international and P/P have now had 7 years.

It is also the material. Much of the interesting/quirky material that P/P were given was to cover up her lack of skills. I am guessing that with their athleticism and better skating, V/P would have gone on to do intriguing programs as well.

Kudos to Piper for learning as much as she has, but frankly she still is not at the same level and still looks like she is stepping / plodding through a lot of her steps. Very apparent in the closeups at the competition.
 

kittysk8ts

Well-Known Member
Messages
1,820
I’ve been lucky enough to see G/P at nationals a couple times, although that was a few years ago. But I loved them. Especially Piper. She’s a great performer and I feel quite proud of her. But I am biased, lol. I do think their bronze in France was the correct result. There were indeed some funky moments.

PS - imagine the “energy” in the building at Canadian Nats with Tessa, Kaitlyn and Piper on the ice. Worth every penny.
 

mirage

Active Member
Messages
269
Which they didn’t. Lol.

True enough!

But why? From what I have heard mentioned, Lane and Poirier Senior had a lot to do with causing/encouraging the problem as opposed to trying to help them work things out, and Gilles was already in the background stirring the pot.
 

kittysk8ts

Well-Known Member
Messages
1,820
True enough!

But why? From what I have heard mentioned, Lane and Poirier Senior had a lot to do with causing/encouraging the problem as opposed to trying to help them work things out, and Gilles was already in the background stirring the pot.
Oh dear, I have no real idea. Creative differences of some such. All water under the bridge.
 

VGThuy

Well-Known Member
Messages
41,020
Fact is, ultimately Paul wanted to split from Vanessa. You can't have a working relationship when one partner wants out. Without a working relationship, you can't have much success. Even when successful teams had partners who didn't like each other personally, they were able to work together well enough to reach their common goal. It seems Paul didn't want that with Vanessa.
 
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mirage

Active Member
Messages
269
Piper was in the US taking acting classes and was approached by Paul after he and Vanessa split. She had less than nothing to do with it.

She may have been taking acting classes but she was also doing tryouts with some US skaters AND had been in touch with Paul some time before.
 

Holy Headband

chair of the Lee Sihyeong international fanclub
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1,654
Assuming Vanessa and Paul would have gotten along well enough to accomplish more.

Also hand-waving the distinct character of G/P's programmes with, 'I'm sure Vanessa and Paul would have had intriguing material too' is a big leap.

The reason people like G/P so much in the first place, which has allowed them to make progress in the standings, is that they have great packaging, which seems to be largely thanks to Gilles. This hypothetical mature Crone/Poirier partnership would not be G/P with a more technically proficient female partner, even assuming perfect development and no personality clashes; it would be G/P without the memorable programmes, the eye-catching dresses, the variety, etc. EVEN IF Crone had gone on to develop as well as Poirier, which is a purely speculative proposition, there's zero guarantee the two of them TOGETHER would be as compelling as G/P.

I'm not even a fan of G/P, but thinking like this just puzzles me.
 

dramagrrl

Well-Known Member
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2,123
True enough!

But why? From what I have heard mentioned, Lane and Poirier Senior had a lot to do with causing/encouraging the problem as opposed to trying to help them work things out, and Gilles was already in the background stirring the pot.
I have also heard that a lot of the split had to do with the adults in Paul's life basically convincing him that he was so much better than Vanessa that he would achieve quicker and higher success with another partner. I was well-acquainted with one of the other high-level skaters in Lane/Razgulejevs' group at the time and she was very friendly with both Vanessa and Paul; she was very surprised about their split because she said that they had been best friends since they were young and she had not noticed any visible rift between them or seen them having any problems getting along. (Obviously, even a close friend does not see everything that is going on behind the scenes, but the idea that they just didn't get along or were never friends off the ice is not true.)

Also hand-waving the distinct character of G/P's programmes with, 'I'm sure Vanessa and Paul would have had intriguing material too' is a big leap.

Not really. Vanessa and Paul already had interesting and choreographically diverse programs at their young ages - in my opinion, programs that were more interesting to me than anything G/P have done in their career. They had the same team doing their choreography, including Christopher Dean. As for "packaging", Piper is definitely a more "glamorous" skater who can pull off more "eye-catching dresses", but I would say C/P even had interesting costuming, so that was also a matter of taste.

Yes, it is possible that they may not have progressed in the same direction, but I don't really think it was a far stretch to say that they would have continued to have interesting programs and packaging when they had already proven to have those things in their few seasons as senior skaters.
 
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Impromptu

Sekret Custom Title
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2,245
Piper was in the US taking acting classes and was approached by Paul after he and Vanessa split. She had less than nothing to do with it.

There was an instagram Q&A with Piper and Alexe a few months ago. One of the questions was whether or not they'd ever skate in Disney on Ice together. Piper replied that it could have happened, because she'd been a day away from signing a contract with Disney when she got a call to try and out with Poirier (he had already tried out with several others, including Emily Samuelson, who ended up teaming up with Piper's brother instead).
 

VGThuy

Well-Known Member
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41,020
Emily Samuelson...now there was a female ice dancer who got away as well. She really was the most talented or at least skilled out of the American female ice dancers of that generation at that time. Sorry Maia...you weren't quite there yet.
 
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Impromptu

Sekret Custom Title
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2,245
Emily Samuelson, Morgan Mathews, and Trina Pratt.

Now that was the ice dance break up that broke my heart. I loved Pratt and Gilles, from the year they won every competition at the novice level. Pratt & Gilles with choreography by Christopher Dean and Tom Dickson... just a great combo all around.
 

mirage

Active Member
Messages
269
Emily Samuelson, Morgan Mathews, and Trina Pratt.

Now that was the ice dance break up that broke my heart. I loved Pratt and Gilles, from the year they won every competition at the novice level. Pratt & Gilles with choreography by Christopher Dean and Tom Dickson... just a great combo all around.

They were good!
 

mirage

Active Member
Messages
269
[QUOTE="dramagrrl, post: 5471347, member: 11"]I have also heard that a lot of the split had to do with the adults in Paul's life basically convincing him that he was so much better than Vanessa that he would achieve quicker and higher success with another partner...... [/QUOTE]


Well, that grass wasn't quite so green!
 

dramagrrl

Well-Known Member
Messages
2,123
We should start a thread about how the U.S. (and other) ice dance dynasties may have been different if certain break ups/retirements never happened.
I was just re-watching Silverstein & Pekarek's Tori Amos FD from 99-00 to show a friend that P/C's current curve lift that has been getting so much praise was done in various incarnations by early Shpilband/Zueva teams almost 20 years ago. (It's still a beautiful lift, but not so much innovative or new.) I still strongly believe that if Jamie hadn't suffered from anorexia and they had stayed healthy and together, the wave of North American ice dance would have started with them rather than Belbin and Agosto. It could have affected so many things, from B/A's rise to V/M's rapid ascent (I still think they would have ascended rapidly, but maybe not quite so fast if S/P had achieved their full potential and there was another North American team winning World championships and Olympic medals).

It may have even affected the current Montreal ice dance dynasty because if D/L had not won world medals in 2006 and 2007 (which may not have happened if there had been another North American team with more political power with the judges at the time), they may not have had the political clout needed to start a big-name ice dance school.
 

Dobre

Well-Known Member
Messages
16,954
Silverstein & Pekarek :swoon::swoon::swoon::swoon::swoon:

Pratt & Gilles with choreography by Christopher Dean and Tom Dickson... just a great combo all around.

I liked Mallory & Holdberg. Their Scheherazade from 2005 U.S. Junior Nationals is one of my favorite memories that I have never found on youtube. Should anyone know where there is a copy (or a version of it from another competition), I would love to see it again. Also, their 2007 U.S. Championships senior FD. (Which finished less than 2 points behind Mathews & Zavoisin).

Loved Samuelson & Bates at 2005 Nationals too. I missed the novice event; but they did perform their FD as an exhibition I'm so sad the novices will not be at Nationals in the future.
 

VGThuy

Well-Known Member
Messages
41,020
I was just re-watching Silverstein & Pekarek's Tori Amos FD from 99-00 to show a friend that P/C's current curve lift that has been getting so much praise was done in various incarnations by early Shpilband/Zueva teams almost 20 years ago. (It's still a beautiful lift, but not so much innovative or new.) I still strongly believe that if Jamie hadn't suffered from anorexia and they had stayed healthy and together, the wave of North American ice dance would have started with them rather than Belbin and Agosto. It could have affected so many things, from B/A's rise to V/M's rapid ascent (I still think they would have ascended rapidly, but maybe not quite so fast if S/P had achieved their full potential and there was another North American team winning World championships and Olympic medals).

It may have even affected the current Montreal ice dance dynasty because if D/L had not won world medals in 2006 and 2007 (which may not have happened if there had been another North American team with more political power with the judges at the time), they may not have had the political clout needed to start a big-name ice dance school.

I made a new thread to discuss those possibilities. :)

Ice Dance Partnership Break-Ups Resulting In Success For Another Team or Changing the Trajectory of Ice Dance
 

barbarafan

Well-Known Member
Messages
5,303
She may have been taking acting classes but she was also doing tryouts with some US skaters AND had been in touch with Paul some time before.
Interesting....I was not on this forum at the time and working constantly so only heard of any reason for breakup months later....being Vanessa was not happy with Carol Lane and wanted herself and Paul to change coaches. He went running to Carol and Vanessa was dumped..As far as Piper hooking up.....I read (again from this forum)that official story is Carol contacted I believe it was her coach who she knew.
 
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