The Dance Hall 6: We're All Off Our Rockers 2018-2019

[Bigbird]

What time will senior dance be competing? Will they be doing both the rhythm dance and the free dance?

After all the fuss at the end of the season about the judges wanting something new (hence the short-lived one season only 'entertainment bonus' idea) I'm very keen to see if any of that has translated into the dance teams making any changes in style for this quad.

What we've seen so far is fairly status quo, but we have only seen lower-ranked teams so far and I doubt they would be keen to rock the boat too much. Not sure if the two Canadian teams will be either. I recall Soucisse and Firus have chosen music for their FD which is remarkably similar to that used by Hubbell/Donohue last season, so I am looking forward to seeing their FD to see what they've done with it.

And the Danes/Canadians are also competing today. We get a lovely look at one of my favourite guys, N. Sorensen later today. For that alone.....

 

[Dobre]

What time will senior dance be competing?

It's supposed to be on any minute now.

 

[starrynight]

Thanks!

Things I'm also interested for:

- Pinpointing when this rocker is that is apparently so impossible and seeing if the teams are getting it.

- Seeing if GOE is just going to be slid upwards on the scale so everyone gets +4 and +5 now, immediately making the supposed room for bigger differentiation obsolete (I've noticed that +5 and +4 were being given to the junior dance teams).

 

[Bigbird]

I think I missed it. Maybe was looking at the wrong feed. And feedback?

 

[starrynight]

The Danadians came out on top in the RD but only by a whisker. So judges aren't playing favourites for the moment at least.

Protocols: https://resultats.patinage.qc.ca/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/21_det.pdf

Some WILD GOE scoring LOL. F-B/S vary on some elements between +1 to +5. Caroline and Shane got a variance of 0 GOE to +4 on one element. Seems like the judges were all over the place throwing darts blindfolded.

Also F-B/S got all key points, so it seems teams are already getting this rocker that the technical committee originally deemed too difficult to do, so what gives there, I don't know. I really don't understand why no one got this rocker at the 2010 Olympics if lower ranked teams are doing it during summer competitions?

Not sure if any of this means much in the long run given how scattered the judging was.

 

[RoseRed]

The Danadians came out on top in the RD but only by a whisker. So judges aren't playing favourites for the moment at least.

Protocols: https://resultats.patinage.qc.ca/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/21_det.pdf

Some WILD GOE scoring LOL. F-B/S vary on some elements between +1 to +5. Caroline and Shane got a variance of 0 GOE to +4 on one element. Seems like the judges were all over the place throwing darts blindfolded.

Also F-B/S got all key points, so it seems teams are already getting this rocker that the technical committee originally deemed too difficult to do, so what gives there, I don't know. I really don't understand why no one got this rocker at the 2010 Olympics if lower ranked teams are doing it during summer competitions?

Not sure if any of this means much in the long run given how scattered the judging was.

They had them ahead a bit more actually, but FB/S had a deduction for extended lift. But still, that would be a difference of ~2 points, instead of one, so still close.

 

[Bigbird]

They had them ahead a bit more actually, but FB/S had a deduction for extended lift. But still, that would be a difference of ~2 points, instead of one, so still close.

They had them ahead a bit more actually, but FB/S had a deduction for extended lift. But still, that would be a difference of ~2 points, instead of one, so still close.

What's the point of this -5 to +5 GOE if the judges have no clue how to use it. They're just going to use it to protect their pets. Did they really need to change what was there before?


BUT, most importantly, ARE THERE VIDEOS? HELP!!!

 

[Dobre]

In general, from the dance protocols I've seen thus far, the judges who gave the higher GOE gave higher GOE across the board. And the judges who gave lower GOE gave lower GOE across the board.

So I don't see any evidence of "petdom" at the moment. More evidence of we-really-don't-agree-about-what-each-of-these-numbers-represent. And, yes, we seem to be getting about a 5 point gradient of difference for someone on one element at every event. But, you know, that's the extreme end of a great many total elements all told. It does show, though, that trying to claim GOE is objective is a bit loony.

 

[starrynight]

In general, from the dance protocols I've seen thus far, the judges who gave the higher GOE gave higher GOE across the board. And the judges who gave lower GOE gave lower GOE across the board.

So I don't see any evidence of "petdom" at the moment. More evidence of we-really-don't-agree-about-what-each-of-these-numbers-represent. And, yes, we seem to be getting about a 5 point gradient of difference for someone on one element at every event. But, you know, that's the extreme end of a great many total elements all told. It does show, though, that trying to claim GOE is objective is a bit loony.

Requirement for +5 GOE: more than 8 positive features and no negative features.
Requirement for +4 GOE: 7 - 8 positive features (no negative features/errors)
Requirement of +1 GOE: only 1 to 2 positive features.
Requirement for 0 GOE: Basic execution – generally correct

When you look at it like that, how could F-B/S get +1 and +5 for the same element? Or Caroline and Shane get 0 and +4 for the same element?

It's clear the judges are doing this by feel. It's sort of fine now that's it's just summer competitions with lower-ranked teams. But I am expecting a bomb to go off with this when it hits the Grand Prix circuit and these results matter.

Although, I am half expecting the judges to all just give the special top teams +4 and +5 to be safe. It'll be further down the ranks with the teams on the cut-off of the Grand Prix Final or the edge of the top 5 at Worlds where it'll have the biggest impact.

 

[Dobre]

When you look at it like that, how could F-B/S get +1 and +5 for the same element? Or Caroline and Shane get 0 and +4 for the same element?

All right, post a list of the possible positive features and/or a link to the documents where we can find them (page numbers, please), and we'll play the how-could-it-happen game.

Personally, my first guess is that if you had just watched Campbell & Granger skate and used them as your initial standard, your assessment of said features might be different than if you decided to contemplate those features relative to the possible level of--say--Virtue & Moir. But let's see the list first, and then we'll see what we think.

Your list above is a good place to start. Thank you for it. Nice & quantitative. But it's only half the puzzle.

It'll be further down the ranks with the teams on the cut-off of the Grand Prix Final or the edge of the top 5 at Worlds where it'll have the biggest impact.

Counting on it. Thumbs down on protocol judging. And thumbs up on making the judges work. Climb my young talented teams. Climb.

I think I missed it. Maybe was looking at the wrong feed. And feedback?

All the dance is in rink 4. (For the FD tomorrow). Sometimes the feed dies. Best method I have found to deal with it is to go back to the main page & try re-entering again.

I did see Lajoie & Lagha (missed the beginning) and Fabbri & Ayer today. Feed was down midway through the junior dance, however, and stayed off for a long while so I never did see Fisher & Mallette-Paquette. Probably won't get that video but if someone sees one with F&M-P's RD, let me know.
ETA: Looks like Fisher & Mallette-Paquette withdrew anyway so I guess we definitely won't see video.

 

[starrynight]

All right, post a list of the possible positive features and/or a link to the documents where we can find them (page numbers, please), and we'll play the how-could-it-happen game.

Once the videos are up, this sounds like an interesting exercise. Anything that demystifies the judging of ice dance could only be a good thing.

 

[starrynight]

Carolane Soucisse and Shane Firus have withdrawn from the FD. So sadly we won't get to see them go up against the Danadians in a full competition just yet.

 

[Wyliefan]

Carolane Soucisse and Shane Firus have withdrawn from the FD. So sadly we won't get to see them go up against the Danadians in a full competition just yet.

What? Why??

 

[barbarafan]

They had them ahead a bit more actually, but FB/S had a deduction for extended lift. But still, that would be a difference of ~2 points, instead of one, so still close.

I agree that GOE's are all over the place and I saw the same thing at Minto to the point I thought one or two might be typos....ie a minus which should be a plus.

I see large diff. from the judges in PCS as well. Sometimes 2 points between judges. I hope there are mandatory seminars on the new judging protocols.

 

[starrynight]

What? Why??

Kirsten and Michael withdrew from the FS as well in pairs. I suspect like them that Carolane and Shane just wanted to practice their RD and save the FD for later?

 

[Bigbird]

Once the videos are up, this sounds like an interesting exercise. Anything that demystifies the judging of ice dance could only be a good thing.

Baby steps, baby steps.

 

[Dobre]

Mueller & Dieck and Tessari & Fioretti take top honors at NRW Trophy to kick off their seasons.
Results: http://deu-event.de/results/NRW/2018-NRW-Summer-Trophy/nrwt2018/CAT003RS.HTM

Carolane Soucisse and Shane Firus have withdrawn from the FD.

Well, so much for that. But we get to see Fournier-Beaudry & Sorenson and Lauriault & Le Gac's new free dances.

(Personal cheering section: Gooo Danadians!)

 

[Bigbird]

Mueller & Dieck and Tessari & Fioretti take top honors at NRW Trophy to kick of their seasons.
Results: http://deu-event.de/results/NRW/2018-NRW-Summer-Trophy/nrwt2018/CAT003RS.HTM



Well, so much for that. But we get to see Fournier-Beaudry & Sorenson and Lauriault & Le Gac's new free dances.

(Personal cheering section: Gooo Danadians!)

Still no video of their RD? I was utterly bored by the baby Canadians. It's so easy for a tango to look really ridiculous. I hope the top teams did their research, oh mercy I am so missing Elena Ilinykh right now.

OTOH, I do know that P/C, H/D, C/B will be great as I also suspect will be S/B they really brought the tango vibe for that FD a few seasons ago. I think that is my favourite piece or more accurately the one piece I get from this pair. But when they get a theme they get it.

 

[Wyliefan]

Kirsten and Michael withdrew from the FS as well in pairs. I suspect like them that Carolane and Shane just wanted to practice their RD and save the FD for later?

Oh well, as long as they're not injured or anything. I was looking forward to that, though.

 

[Dobre]

Well, so much for that. But we get to see Fournier-Beaudry & Sorenson and Lauriault & Le Gac's new free dances.

Or not. The Danadians kept their FD. Of course, they look really incredible with it for this point in the season. Skated it well. Twizzles look good today. Slow motion whip around entry into one of the lifts is cool (Maybe new? I don't know the old program well enough to say for sure).

I guess since they didn't skate it at Worlds last season & they aren't going to have a regular season (with no Challengers or GPs) this year, I can see why they elected to keep the old FD. Though, for the record, I still don't like to see this in dance. And that result at Euros last year with it worries me a bit. Great score 114.11

 

[Bigbird]

For some reason on some videos, I am zoomed in extremely while others are okay. While I was out my cat must have walked across my laptop and now I cannot see the Quebec stream or videos. Any ideas?

This is going to be a wonky season for FB/S anyway, sort of neutral on the retread.

 

[Dobre]

This is going to be a wonky season for FB/S anyway, sort of neutral on the retread.

Not if they make it to 4CCs & Worlds it won't. This is one of those seasons when people move up. They could fight for the top ten if they can get there.

 

[Wyliefan]

Can they go to Worlds this season after switching countries? I'm a little fuzzy on the rules.

 

[Debbie S]

What? Why??

Most likely, they decided their FD wasn't ready yet. It's not unusual for skaters to enter summer comps and then w/d closer to the event.

Can they go to Worlds this season after switching countries? I'm a little fuzzy on the rules.

They have to sit out a year from the date of their last comp. So it's 1 year from 2018 Euros, so they could compete at 4CC and Worlds this season.

 

[Wyliefan]

Oh, I see. Thanks for clearing that up!

 

[Bigbird]

The first RD I've liked all season from the seniors, Car/Pom.
RD C/Pom

 

[kittysk8ts]

Here’s a poor quality vid of Lauriault Le Gac RD I found on Twitter. I love it despite the awful vid and cannot wait to see in better quality

https://twitter.com/voirism/status/1028444985316728833?s=21

 

[Bigbird]

Here’s a poor quality vid of Lauriault Le Gac RD I found on Twitter. I love it despite the awful vid and cannot wait to see in better quality

https://twitter.com/voirism/status/1028444985316728833?s=21

The Gadbois Tango game is looking strong because I've heard good things about FB/S as well as S/F. Keep the videos coming.

 

[mollymgr]

Once the videos are up, this sounds like an interesting exercise. Anything that demystifies the judging of ice dance could only be a good thing.

I'm expecting it to be more mystifying than before once the senior GP starts. They just gave themselves a wider range to fudge about.

 

[Vinyame]

Lajoie/Lagha's programs:
RD: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ByYS18DXXCc
FD: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9AkGedej8oc