The Dance Hall 6: We're All Off Our Rockers 2018-2019

starrynight

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The rather complex guidelines for deciding GOE on dance patterns are set out here:

https://www.isu.org/inside-single-p...e-of-execution-of-pattern-dance-elements/file

I've copied out the positive and negative features below:

Positive
  • Good quality - correctness, cleanness and sureness of Edges/Steps/Turns
  • Edges deep.
  • Smooth and Effortless
  • Unison and oneness throughout the element
  • Reflects character and style of the chosen rhythm
  • Glide and flow maintained (movement across the ice)
  • Holds and positions precise, consistent and close spacing between partners
  • Body lines and carriage of both partners elegant.
  • Maximum utilization of the ice surface with the correct Pattern
  • Timing accurate 100%
Negative
  • Per each Stumble
  • Per each Loss of Balance
  • Poor quality and/or Laboured and/or Uncontrolled and/or Minor Errors and/or Major Error(s) (max of negative features per Element)
  • Lack of unison
  • Does not reflect character and style of the chosen rhythm
  • Lack of glide and flow (movement across the ice)
  • Holds and positions incorrect and/or uncontrolled and/or variable spacing in between partners
  • Crossing the Long Axis
    – exception for 2018/19: Tango Romantica Steps #3-5 and Steps #10-12 ) per each
  • Pattern incorrect
  • Not started on the prescribed beat (for each Section/Sequence)

So for a +1 GOE you need plus 1 -2 positive features and at least 75% of Steps/Edges held for required number of beats (for both partners)

For +5 GOE you need more than 8 positive features, no negative features and 100% of Steps/Edges held for required number of beats (for both partners)

So I would say either:

- the judges that gave +5 and +1 for the same pattern are either very harsh or forgiving. OR one judge thought that they needed to work on holding their edges.

Not sure if I would necessarily hold out their pattern as being the flawless level +5 is meant to represent. I suspect the judges fell into a bit of 6.0 relative scoring at this event.

Is there video of Souicisse/Firus' RD anywhere?
 
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Dobre

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The rather complex guidelines for deciding GOE on dance patterns are set out here:

https://www.isu.org/inside-single-p...e-of-execution-of-pattern-dance-elements/file

I've copied out the positive and negative features below:

Positive
  • Good quality - correctness, cleanness and sureness of Edges/Steps/Turns
  • Edges deep.
  • Smooth and Effortless
  • Unison and oneness throughout the element
  • Reflects character and style of the chosen rhythm
  • Glide and flow maintained (movement across the ice)
  • Holds and positions precise, consistent and close spacing between partners
  • Body lines and carriage of both partners elegant.
  • Maximum utilization of the ice surface with the correct Pattern
  • Timing accurate 100%
I suspect the judges fell into a bit of 6.0 relative scoring at this event.
Thank you for finding the list. That's great!

Like I thought, the majority of these things are relative, no? I mean, next to Campbell & Granger, Fournier-Beaudry & Sorenson are very smooth & effortless. Next to the very best teams in the World, not as much. So the assessment of that feature could very much depend on what barometer the judge used. Did they compare F-B&S to C&G or did they compare them to a mental V&M? F-B&S did look very polished for this event, more ready--IMO--for the season and more in character with the style of dance. But the level of the competitors was quite disparate.

It reminds me a bit of the difference of dance scores between the team event at the Olympics and the individual dance event there. When you only have 5 teams in the FD during the team event and four of them are top 6 in the World with your fifth team still essentially top 15, you're going to nitpick those teams apart but you have a lot of room to do it. When you have 20 teams skating the FD later in the week, well--honestly--after watching some of those lower teams, you really can appreciate what the top athletes do in a different way.

It is a bit of 6.0 relative scoring, as you said, but how do you judge depth of edges or smoothness & effortlessness without at least having some kind of mental barometer? There isn't a nice green light that goes off when the skate blade reaches a certain angle.

I think this is a big part of the reason the top junior teams last season didn't match their personal bests from juniors. They were getting plus 3's in juniors because relative to the other junior teams, they were the best. And in seniors, under the +3, -3 system, it was extremely rare for the judges to throw out a plus 3 for a first-year senior team. Not that common in juniors, but the very top teams were bringing them in. M&C had 36 at the 2016 Junior Worlds and 2 at last year's 4CCs. IMO, their execution was certainly better last season than in 2016. It's just that the field of comparison is different.

Soucisse & Firus's RD:
https://vimeo.com/284513095

None of their elements have a disparity of 5 (that I see). Their first pattern has a disparity of 4.
 
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thvudragon

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@starrynight Don’t forget, the first four features on the positive list are “double features”, so they count as two.

On the negative list, the first counts as a double, and the third counts as a single or double and is up the judge’s discretion.

I think judges are having a hard time when it comes to what counts as a double feature and what is just a single. It’s a whole new system that I’m sure most don’t have down solidly. It can also help explain the +1 vs. +5 a little better.
 

Viscaro

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Nitpicking here (or not) ... but V/M are not competing anymore and the best ice dance team as of Worlds is P/C.
I think that's also why Dobre choose V/M as a model : since they are not competing anymore (or for now) they are a good neutral virtual team (did I use too much adjectives ?) to use as a reference.
 

Peepsquick

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I think that's also why Dobre choose V/M as a model : since they are not competing anymore (or for now) they are a good neutral virtual team (did I use too much adjectives ?) to use as a reference.
Doesn't quite make sense to me (we are talking about a new cycle with new rules) and I think you should refer to competing ice dance couples who are/will be the bench mark of the new quadrennial. Regardless of one's taste or ideal. It is not about preference but the stand of the existing competition.
 

VIETgrlTerifa

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It’s not that serious and Dobre’s comment is not a slight on P/C. It’s natural for people to compare skaters to past greats and current greats. Nothing wrong with mentioning V/M who are the most notable and successful ice dance team of this era. The system changed but it’s not as if the skating changed all that much.
 

Dobre

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LOL. It doesn't matter. I could have chosen any top team. In this case, I named Virtue & Moir because it was a non-international event in Canada, and I figured those judges have judged with V&M as their standard more often than any other top team. I could have named Weaver & Poje. (Papadakis & Cizeron haven't competed in Canada since the Autumn Classic in 2014 as far as I can tell. It was simply a matter of geographic logistics for a club event). I don't know why judges wouldn't be using retired teams as their standard. Some likely will. The likelihood that many won't is just further evidence of why marks sometimes go up & down based on the depth of a specific field.
 
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Peepsquick

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And not a slight on V/M but there is a real danger of idealization here. I,personally, feels more comfortable with the concept of judging according to what you see in a given year. Anyway there will always be a part of subjectivity in judging.
 

Dobre

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And not a slight on V/M but there is a real danger of idealization here. I,personally, feels more comfortable with the concept of judging according to what you see in a given year. Anyway there will always be a part of subjectivity in judging.
Double LOL. I'm not a V&M fan. There is zero danger of idealization here.
 

VIETgrlTerifa

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And not a slight on V/M but there is a real danger of idealization here. I,personally, feels more comfortable with the concept of judging according to what you see in a given year. Anyway there will always be a part of subjectivity in judging.
You really took an innocuous statement and blew it up to something bigger than it is. It seems to be more projecting some insecurity.
 

Peepsquick

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You really took an innocuous statement and blew it up to something bigger than it is. It seems to be more projecting some insecurity.
No, just trying to understand the concept of judging current ice dancers through the prism of past achievements. Nothing more. It's not about V/M (or P/C) ... just the concept throws me off. Maybe the teacher in me ...
 

Dobre

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I think it's just important to be clear that there is a difference between "standard" and "ideal." A standard can be superseded and/or not matched. It's a point of reference. A point of reference could be the very top team at an event, the lowest-level team at an event, the very best team you've ever seem, or simply the first team to skate. If something is the very best in the world, then it should be getting the top given mark from a specific judge. It's not vital whether that mark is a +2, 3, 4, or 5 as long as it is the highest mark the judge gives and he/she uses the same level of strictness while judging all elements throughout the event. (Other teams may receive the same mark if they earn the required number of features, just not a higher one. In this way, GOE is different from 6.0 thinking). You come into a gray area when you have a bunch of teams with topnotch versions of an element. If you give them the same mark, you don't separate the very best; and if you give them difference marks, you may be creating an undue separation when comparing those teams with a larger field.

It would be nice to think the judges can just watch a program in isolation and know how many positive and negative features it meets. But we were discussing how it might be possible for people to watch the same element and give such a wide range of GOE marks.

It could be possible if the judges don't agree on what defines "smoothness" or "deep edges" or "reflecting the character and style of the chosen rhythm."
 
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Dobre

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Yuri Vlasenko is back on Ice Partner Search.

Per Ka3sha's post in the Kiss & Cry, a new team of Polishchuk & Shamraev is signed up in junior dance for the first Russian Cup Event. (They are with Krylova).


So is someone going to analyze S/F's RD
Go for it. As I said, I don't see any elements with a disparity of 5, but the first pattern run-through has a difference of 4. Program link is in post #692.
 
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Bigbird

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P/C has never done the Romantic Tango, have they? So why all the fuss, peeps? But V/M to date has a stellar one, who knows maybe P/C will do it so well this season we'll have a new standard of excellence, but until then.....
 

Peepsquick

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O.K, guys, stop! Here again it's NOT V/M vs P/C! I would have reacted the same way, if instead of V/M Dobre had mentioned an ice Dance Team not competing anymore. It is not the persons, just the concept.
Let it rest, we've had enough negative vibes to the topic to last us a lifetime!
 

VIETgrlTerifa

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O.K, guys, stop! Here again it's NOT V/M vs P/C! I would have reacted the same way, if instead of V/M Dobre had mentioned an ice Dance Team not competing anymore. It is not the persons, just the concept.
Let it rest, we've had enough negative vibes to the topic to last us a lifetime!
I think people mentioned P/C because your original post said:

Nitpicking here (or not) ... but V/M are not competing anymore and the best ice dance team as of Worlds is P/C.
And it seemed you were offended Dobre mentioned V/M at all. I'm just more confused why there was a reaction at all. It's not like V/M last competed 10 years ago.
 

Peepsquick

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I just think everybody is still primed to react allergically to the mention of both teams in a sentence. My objection was to the idea of basing judgement on current competing teams based on the achievement of currently not enrolled teams, that's all. I think that the grading is based on the comparative quality of people who are in a given competition not on achievements of past competitions. But I may be wrong ... . Great teams from previous seasons will always be referenced. I am not advocating to forget about them.
 

thvudragon

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Also, V&M were specifically used in the training materials - as both an example of a +5 and an example of maxing out at +3 due to having a negative feature. It would make complete sense if judges had V&M in mind.
 

Dobre

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Two Russian ice dancers appeared on Ice Partner search, both are ready to change citizenship

Yuri Vlasenko
http://icepartnersearch.com/showbio.php?i=6349

Gregori Yakushev (previously skated with Ksenia Konkina)
http://icepartnersearch.com/showbio.php?i=6257
Yes, Yakushev has been on there all summer. Karpushov is listed also.

I would have reacted the same way, if instead of V/M Dobre had mentioned an ice Dance Team not competing anymore. It is not the persons, just the concept.
Let it rest, we've had enough negative vibes to the topic to last us a lifetime!
It's no problem. (This is a discussion board. I like discussion). I always hesitate a bit before using an example because there's always the chance someone will argue about it not being the best one, but generally I just go ahead and use the examples anyway because I think they add clarity.

I was hoping one of you smarter people would do it. I'm really bad at that sort of thing. :D
@starrynight will probably do it since he/she asked for the link to S&F's RD.

And/or maybe @gk_891 would like to try it? I don't know if he/she is on the board during the summer; but I think he/she likes to analyze compulsories. If yes @gk_891, we are looking for someone who would like to theorize how different judges could validate giving Soucisse & Firus +0, +1, +2, and +3 on the first portion of their pattern dance. The criteria for the new GOE system & positive & negative features are listed in posts #639 and #691 of this thread. The link to S&F's RD is at the bottom of post #692.
 
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sap5

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I think that the grading is based on the comparative quality of people who are in a given competition not on achievements of past competitions.
But to do it this way, you’d need to see all the teams skate first and then give all the scores at the end, right? How else to deal with if the top team misses the element and a lower team performed it the best at that comp?
 
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Peepsquick

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No, you judge with the standards in mind (experienced judges have probably a fairly good idea of what looks very good/good/acceptable/poor etc...) and the judging attached to the new rules are work-in-progress. I guess.
We'll see as the season progresses ...
 

Dobre

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The JGP starts this week:biggrinbo.

Anyone have thoughts/hopes/expectations/new-teams-we-ought-to-look-out-for/etc.?

Returning Junior World Medalists:
Ushakova & Nekrasov

Returning JGP Finalists:
Shevchenko & Eremenko
Ushakova & Nekrasov
Lajoie & Lagha

Possible Returning JGP Medalists:
All of the above plus . . .
Green & Green
Khudaberdieva & Nazarov
Lagouge & Rahier

Note: The Greens appear to be currently MIA and pulled out of Bratislava so we'll have to see if they make it back during the regular JGP. They remain on the sub lists. Lagouge & Rahier do not have an assignment yet. They are on sub lists as well.
 

Ka3sha

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Anyone have thoughts/hopes/expectations/new-teams-we-ought-to-look-out-for/etc.?
I am really looking forward seeing the Greens this season.

Among all Russian teams I prefer Khudaberdieva/Nazarov. I often get some minor I/K flashbacks from them (speed, charisma and messy twizzles :D )
 

RoseRed

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The JGP starts this week:biggrinbo.

Anyone have thoughts/hopes/expectations/new-teams-we-ought-to-look-out-for/etc.?
Alicia Fabbri won a bronze medal at JGP Italy last season with her old partner Claudio Pietrantonio. She'll be at JGP Bratislava with her new partner Paul Ayer. They looked promising when I saw them live this summer at Minto.

And for Russia Konkina/Vakhnov both won medals in their previous partnerships.
 

chameleonster

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With Carreira/Ponomarenko in seniors and both Greens and Lewis/Bye currently MIA, some of the other US juniors have an opportunity this JGP season. Gropman/Somerville have a great chance to win their first JGP medal this weekend, maybe even the whole thing depending on how Khudaiberdieva/Nazarov look. Nguyen/Kolesnik and Gunter/Wein also have good chances to move up this season.

I'm interested in seeing how Konkina/Vakhnov look together, I enjoyed them in their previous partnerships. At Minto I was impressed by many of the new partnerships in Canada and hope they stay together so they can grow.
 

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