The Dance Hall 5: Ice Dance Fans 2017-2018

[AnaBM]

I don't know how anybody could truly objectively think P/C deserve any 10.00s for that performance. I'm not just speaking as a "North American" in a NA v. European debate that this is trying to be turned into as I prefer P/C's SD to V/M's for enjoyment purposes.

Same here. They were not bad at all, and certainly were better than most teams, but to believe that that SD is less than a point away from their SD at the GPF, that was truly great, it just makes no sense.

 

[Anyasnake]

Same here. They were not bad at all, and certainly were better than most teams, but to believe that that SD is less than a point away from their SD at the GPF, that was truly great, it just makes no sense.

But this is not how it works, the system. It's not well it's a 82 yesterday, it's a 84 tonight. Main reason for P/C being closer to V/M is the pattern, and high GOEs on the step sequences which were really well done (especially the No-touch).

In the past there has been a hundred cases like that, were elements are well performed, but there some things that you keep in mind and say :"Well since there are mistakes it should be lower". No obviously. It happens with everyone, by the way.

 

[Rafter]

I would be able to handle the PCS difference (not that I personally agree with it), but what gets me is P/C getting all +2 and +3 on the twizzles. IMO that should at most be just left at 0 GOE, since she did an extra turn - a very noticeable mistake. 0 GOE would bring them down about 1.3 points overall, which is about where I think they should be. Even if a few judges gave them +1, they'd be about a point lower overall.

What bothers me is that now, no matter who wins, there'll be an asterisk beside their name.
* Tessa and Scott only won because Gabby's dress came undone so they couldn't perform their best in the SD
* Gabby and Guillaume only won because the judges felt sympathetic after the disaster in the SD, so they were overmarked in the FD

The GOEs on P/Cs lift were too high too.

 

[DreamsofBliss]

Both V/M and P/C get the benefit of the doubt when they bobble on twizzles. It drives me crazy, but I don't think it's the result of bloc judging. I personally would have docked P/C more on twizzles. But I didn't have a huge issue with PCS, because as brilliantly as V/M skated, I despise that SD.

Exactly. It's pretty typical in ice dance that the top teams receive scores that don't necessarily reflect what they put on the ice. Because they are top teams they score higher on elements even if they aren't the best at them.

In Ben Agosto's recap, he doesn't think VM's back outside edge was clean, but they got credit anyway. He does mention we have different views than the tech panel.

 

[Rafter]

But this is not how it works, the system. It's not well it's a 82 yesterday, it's a 84 tonight. Main reason for P/C being closer to V/M is the pattern, and high GOEs on the step sequences which were really well done (especially the No-touch).

Rewatching P/Cs rhumba pattern again, I don’t think she was on a clear outside edge on the Choctaw and their pattern was not as big as V/M. So again, overmarked. I’d actually like to see the two patterns side by side.

 

[Anyasnake]

Rewatching P/Cs rhumba pattern again, I don’t think she was on a clear outside edge on the Choctaw and their pattern was not as big as V/M. So again, overmarked. I’d actually like to see the two patterns side by side.

Oh she was. Have you seen her technique ? Basically the moment of the turn it's already on the edge, and the judges cannot find a flat edge at the end of it (Not allowed to go flat and then mark the edge...).
He surely is not always my reference in Dance but : https://twitter.com/rockerskating/status/965440815442128896
I mean the edges were so good, the ice coverage was huge, the chochtaw was so clean (as it was all season).
Overmarked ? I don't even see how you can see that This I won't even argue. The technique on the pattern is immaculate. They also use tricks to get the edges right at the end and avoid losing levels.

 

[suki]

By the way, I would not like to be in the shoes of the person who was in charge of making Gabriella´s dress

I thought Cizeron designed it? I know he didn't fabricate it, but maybe the team that did wasn't savvy with the special requirements for a skating dress that looks great, suits the program, and can handle all sorts of twisting, turning, falling, etc., without coming undone.

 

[Ohyes]

Yes because God forbid some skating fans want the scoring to actually reflect what happens on the ice during the performance.

This site is filled with P/C fans with an immature P/C uber moderator what do you expect?

 

[Anyasnake]

This site is filled with P/C fans with an immature P/C uber moderator what do you expect?

Switch performances. Switch critics. Isn't one team allowed to be defended whoever that might be ? It's not all black and white and not everyone is an uber.

 

[AnaBM]

But this is not how it works, the system. It's not well it's a 82 yesterday, it's a 84 tonight. Main reason for P/C being closer to V/M is the pattern, and high GOEs on the step sequences which were really well done (especially the No-touch).

In the past there has been a hundred cases like that, were elements are well performed, but there some things that you keep in mind and say :"Well since there are mistakes it should be lower". No obviously. It happens with everyone, by the way.

Is not just the rhumba pattern, of course they deserved good scores for that, it's things like getting such high GOE for the twizzles when they clearly (as mentioned by other users before) were off, or getting 9.89 on interpretation when they were distracted most of the program.
I'm sorry, but they were not .07 better in interpretation here vs the GPF, and I do agree that a previous competition shouldn't determinate today's scores, but what they did on the ice (performance wise), shouldn't be above other teams who were clearly above them, at least in that department.

 

[StasiyaGalustyanLove]

This site is filled with P/C fans with an immature P/C uber moderator what do you expect?

I am so confused! My wife and I have PC computers, but I would of thought that people who have MACs could use this web site. Is that wrong!? And what is the connection to uber, if I sign up for the deluxe subscription here do I get a deal for a free uber ride? It would be nice to use next time my wife and I go to Albuquerque.

Back to the dance, I loved seeing all the ladies last night with those outfits that had all the colorful strappy pieces hanging from them. My wife said she might sew a strap on to her sweatshirt so she feels more snazzy when she's hanging out at home!

 

[Anyasnake]

Is not just the rhumba pattern, of course they deserved good scores for that, it's things like getting such high GOE for the twizzles when they clearly (as mentioned by other users before) were off, or getting 9.89 on interpretation when they were distracted most of the program.
I'm sorry, but they were not .07 better in interpretation here vs the GPF, and I do agree that a previous competition shouldn't determinate today's scores, but what they did on the ice (performance wise), shouldn't be above other teams who were clearly above them, at least in that department.

GOE for the twizzles of course. Top teams often get away with that, and that is something I cannot properly explain. Obviously I did not read the whole ISU rulebook, but using a bit of logic.
About PCS being higher from one competition to the other : that is "almost" pointless, because what's important is the ranking. 0.7 depends on the panel litterally, but look out for : how did they score compared to this team ? or this one ? The number itself will pretty much always change.
And when a team is, skating-wise considered superior, they'll get those superior PCS. Surely we don't like that but this is nothing new (and it won't change today just for that particular skate). For that matter, Anna&Luca would have a 10.00 in Performance very often.
And despite that the performance was actually pretty strong. Surely not the best of course ! But certainly not a bad skate, it was solid. Not what we're used to though.

 

[mollymgr]

At least the FD event won't be without excitement. The scores are all pretty close. In order to be a champion, you have to go out there and take it. While I'm exhausted from the Olympics already, I'm looking forward to the FD. Good luck to everyone.

 

[barbarafan]

Based on the protocols, looks like the USA judge also wants Gabi/Guillaume to win.

Or USA judge just wants V/M not to win.....or in return for USA making sure P/C wins gold...France will make sure a US dance team wins Bronze....

 

[aftershocks]

Woo, re Gaby's costume malfunction. Boy was it a distraction. I felt sorry for them. But everyone knows, their SD score was overly high for that distracted performance. Still, I have to commend them for getting through that performance without a major mistake. They were clearly distracted. Their team had been working on trying to secure the catch of Gaby's top right before the performance too. Why didn't someone grab a good old trusty safety pin or two? No one in the viewing audience would have been the wiser, and I think Gaby's top might have at least held together and not been distracting and problematic for them.

It was a miracle that the Pyeongchang arena was not privy to a Janet Jackson moment. All ladies should wear protective covers underneath their garments because like it's embarrassing I suppose to see the real beauty unintentionally of the womanly body. Gaby would seriously have had many points taken off if by chance her top fell off.

But boy the politics was rampant in the scoring. No way that C/L and B/S belong in front of G/P, W/P or C/B truthfully. Granted those teams are all fairly close in ability. B/S is the weakest though. Cinquanta must have been throwing his weight around. Even C/L were surprised at their placement over B/S. Those two teams have worked hard but did not necessarily deserve to be skating in the final group in the SD, over the Shibs especially.

 

[GreenGan]

To be honest all I see is "they should not get that" or "they should be lower", especially on the twizzles, but I don't see anyone quoting the handbook to prove their point. I have absolutely no problem in hearing critics about PC but if you could weight them with proper explanation it'd be much more than opinion so a lot more interesting. And I would, WE would also learn a lot more about ice dance, which is why I've started following this forum in the first place.

GOE for the twizzles of course. Top teams often get away with that, and that is something I cannot properly explain. Obviously I did not read the whole ISU rulebook, but using a bit of logic

Synchronisation is not a bullet point in the GoE for twizzles. https://www.isu.org/inside-single-p...ndbook-for-referees-and-judges-2017-18-1/file
page 18 : Goe requirement : Entry, turns, connecting footsteps, spacing between the partner.

You can also look page 20 for the adjustement on twizzles. Simultaneous execution not fulfilled on one set => Goe reduce by one grade. 2 set with no simultaneous execution => no more than -1 for the GoE. Now does the simultaneous execution mean all the rotation movement? How much delay is accepted ? (1/4 ? less ?) Visible in slow-mo or just live ?
There is also an increase of +1 if the exit of the first two set are on "a smooth running edge by both partner".

 

[Sylvia]

Cinquanta must have been throwing his weight around. Even C/L were surprised at their placement over B/S.

Jan Dijkema (Netherlands) has been the ISU President since 2016.

 

[aftershocks]

Jan Dijkema (Netherlands) has been the ISU President since 2016.

You trying to tell me something I don't already know? So what! Whether or not the long arm of Cinquanta is or isn't directly responsible, he wasn't dictator for that long without leaving some minions in place. FS polticks is politicks is politicks and books could be written by plenty of running down the skinny and the dirty undersides. Or perhaps it's not that messily dirty. It's just figure skating politics as usual. Especially when skaters have fairly equal abilities, and even when they don't obviously.

Whatever in any case. C/L are a nice team and very competent. I don't have any particular preference between C/L and B/S. I just don't feel that either are better than G/P or W/P. In fact, C/L and B/S aren't better than C/B either. Like a number of fans, I question when C/L won Worlds. But they are nice people and hardworking skaters. B/S are quite nice people too and hardworking skaters. It often comes down to preference, favoritism and politics. Gilles/Poirier have been wuzrobbed quite often.

 

[Zazy]

But I didn't have a huge issue with PCS, because as brilliantly as V/M skated, I despise that SD.

So you think the PCS scores should correlate with your personal enjoyment of a program? I expect that from casual Olympic watchers, not an active member of a figure skating forum. Unfortunately, the judges often seem to think that way, as does much of the skating world. Is this a sport or not?

 

[wickedwitch]

So you think the PCS scores should correlate with your personal enjoyment of a program? I expect that from casual Olympic watchers, not an active member of a figure skating forum. Unfortunately, the judges often seem to think that way, as does much of the skating world. Is this a sport or not?

Many PCS criteria are inherently somewhat subjective. Because while it is a sport, it's also an art. And even in more traditional sports, there are areas where human opinion and subjectivity affect rulings.

 

[aftershocks]

Or USA judge just wants V/M not to win.....or in return for USA making sure P/C wins gold...France will make sure a US dance team wins Bronze....

I've also heard it gossiped that the Russians are so mad about T/M off the podium in pairs (Mozer can't see how godawful Candyman is apparently ), that they will work their influence in conjunction with France to ensure P/C win OGM over V/M. If US judges get involved too, oh boy. But in the end, it will count what the skaters do on the ice.

Wowza, figure skating overload this season. I'm so exhausted already, I feel wiped out. Much less can I keep up with all the news articles, videos, posts, gossip, politicking scenarios, social media tweets...

 

[VGThuy]

Article about Americans’ exposure to the twizzle:

https://www.thrillist.com/news/nation/what-is-twizzle-ice-dancing-winter-olympics-2018

 

[Twilight1]

The best hope is that a team fracks up so conspiracy theory is rested because a team fracked up.

 

[NinjaTurtles]

To be honest all I see is "they should not get that" or "they should be lower", especially on the twizzles, but I don't see anyone quoting the handbook to prove their point. I have absolutely no problem in hearing critics about PC but if you could weight them with proper explanation it'd be much more than opinion so a lot more interesting. And I would, WE would also learn a lot more about ice dance, which is why I've started following this forum in the first place.


Synchronisation is not a bullet point in the GoE for twizzles. https://www.isu.org/inside-single-p...ndbook-for-referees-and-judges-2017-18-1/file
page 18 : Goe requirement : Entry, turns, connecting footsteps, spacing between the partner.

You can also look page 20 for the adjustement on twizzles. Simultaneous execution not fulfilled on one set => Goe reduce by one grade. 2 set with no simultaneous execution => no more than -1 for the GoE. Now does the simultaneous execution mean all the rotation movement? How much delay is accepted ? (1/4 ? less ?) Visible in slow-mo or just live ?
There is also an increase of +1 if the exit of the first two set are on "a smooth running edge by both partner".

I think the question is more did Gabby do linked three turns in the last set of Twizzles? Refer to page 51:

Question: In a Set of Twizzles, a couple performs a third Twizzle as Additional Feature. If there is a mistake by one or both partners in performing these third Twizzles, how does it affect the GOE?

Answer: The Judges will consider this mistake as a poor exit and not as a mistake on one of the required Twizzles. While establishing their GOE, they should lower the characteristics “entry/exit” like for any other type of poor exit.

Comments: This may result in lowering the GOE.

We all know the exit on the third set of twizzles was not what Gabby intended to do. The operative word in the handbook is may result in lowering the GOE. Because she did the required number of revolutions in the third set, they didn't get the GOE 0 (the turns were technically correct). The exit is the issue and is apparently left up to the judges' discretion per the comments.

 

[Rafter]

Oh she was. Have you seen her technique ? Basically the moment of the turn it's already on the edge, and the judges cannot find a flat edge at the end of it (Not allowed to go flat and then mark the edge...).
He surely is not always my reference in Dance but : https://twitter.com/rockerskating/status/965440815442128896
I mean the edges were so good, the ice coverage was huge, the chochtaw was so clean (as it was all season).
Overmarked ? I don't even see how you can see that This I won't even argue. The technique on the pattern is immaculate. They also use tricks to get the edges right at the end and avoid losing levels.

Well on my 60inch screen TV it looked rather flat by Papadakis but I’d like to see another camera angle.

 

[Wyliefan]

The best hope is that a team fracks up so conspiracy theory is rested because a team fracked up.

Like that would do it.

 

[Zazy]

Many PCS criteria are inherently somewhat subjective. Because while it is a sport, it's also an art. And even in more traditional sports, there are areas where human opinion and subjectivity affect rulings.

Sure, we can't eliminate subjectivity entirely but we should at least try. Why do you think that this program, skated brilliantly, deserves lower pcs than a very tentative (for understandable reasons) skate from P/C?

It's not my favourite program from V/M, mainly because I'm not a big fan of the OTT ballroom latin style. But it is a great representation of that style, and the only SD that managed to truly combine skating and latin dancing at the same time (as opposed to dancing in the posing sections, then skating). I don't even know how they managed to do that! It is full of interdependent skating, change of holds, complex choreography while still (in this performance) maintaining great power and flow.

Meanwhile, their Prince SD, which I like a lot more on a subjective level, was very empty with lots of hand-to-hand skating. It was a lot of fun but when I stop to look at it critically, outside of the midline steps, there was nothing particularly special or challenging about the choreography. I like the music and style of movement a lot more but I actually think as a competitive vehicle, with similar levels of performance and execution, it clearly deserves the 2nd best scores.

 

[Twilight1]

Like that would do it.

But at least with a freck up, the reason one placed higher than the other would be blatantly obvious.

 

[wickedwitch]

Sure, we can't eliminate subjectivity entirely but we should at least try. Why do you think that this program, skated brilliantly, deserves lower pcs than a very tentative (for understandable reasons) skate from P/C?

I think it lacks cohesion, which is one of the criteria for CO. I felt their FD had the same problem earlier in the season, but they've really improved the cohesive feeling of that. I also dislike the way the music was cut, so it wouldn't qualify, IMO, as "ingenious use of music."

I personally don't love their interpretation, but that may be a reflection of not seeing it live.

If I were a judge, I would have probably given V/M higher PCS, mainly on PE, but as I wrote, I don't have an issue with judges who went slightly higher for P/C. This is unlike the twizzles where judges who gave +2 or +3 I think were simply wrong.

 

[Zazy]

I think it lacks cohesion, which is one of the criteria for CO. I felt their FD had the same problem earlier in the season, but they've really improved the cohesive feeling of that. I also dislike the way the music was cut, so it wouldn't qualify, IMO, as "ingenious use of music."

I personally don't love their interpretation, but they may be a reflection of not seeing it live.

If I were a judge, I would have probably given V/M higher PCS, mainly on PE, but as I wrote, I don't have an issue with judges who went slightly higher for P/C. This is unlike the twizzles where judges who gave +2 or +3 I think were simply wrong.

I don't know, from what you wrote, I still feel you're letting your subjective dislike of their program majorly affect your idea of the deserved PCS scores. Programs are vehicles to show the skating. For scoring purposes, they are much less important than the skating itself. And yesterday, the skating wasn't even close.