The Dance Hall 5: Ice Dance Fans 2017-2018

[chapis]

Here is her tweet. It might disappear quickly She doesn't do herself and her team a favour here .
"Wow, if ya’ll don’t read any of the skating forums.. you should, learn a lot about the past ice dance competition scandals. #playfair #Olympics2018"

Respect to H/K's for their graceful reaction to getting sidelined, some might say 'unfairly', last season.

maybe she has been posting in this same thread

 

[VGThuy]

maybe she has been posting in this same thread

That would explain some other posts, but I rather not think that she posted those posts.

 

[justtojoke]

Olivia really?

 

[cocotaffy]

Notwithstanding the scandals allegations and just looking at the skating, H/K skated their SD really well at Zagreb, much better than at Nationals whereas S/D performed the best this season at Nationals, so tbh those scores don't surprise me so much. H/K have the better SS too, it looks like they also have greater speed even though watching on screen is always misleading. The main issue is Sara's inconsistency in the twizzles which really can kill their scores.
Splitting Olys and Worlds is a good deal and S/D shouldn't react to strongly especially after what happened last season.
Now if there was fixing, it should be properly investigated of course, but again looking at the skating the results are not outrageous.

 

[rhapsody]

Madison Hubbell IG storied a pic of the Spanish podium with Sara & Kirill cropped out.

Ultimately choosing Olivia & Adria to go to Worlds last year killed their chances here. I think the Spanish federation were hoping to push them because of their coaching connections in Montreal as opposed to Hurtado & Khaliavin with Zhulin who pretty much has none in Russia. Unfortunately this time around the Spanish federation could not backtrack on their criteria for the same team two years in a row without appearing biased.

It's the same mentality I believe that the USFS will enforce next month when it comes to the women; Ashley isn't going to the Olympics if she implodes because they already used that mulligan in 2014.

Welp. Kind of disappointing to see such bad sportsmanship from the Montreal team although I can understand it if you're working your entire life for that opportunity.

 

[Ka3sha]

Wow, there really was a big gap between the BLR judge's scores for H/K and S/D.

And also the pretty big gap between the Spanish judge's (#3) scores for H/K and S/D while the gap between S/D and B/S's score wasn't that big (considering that two teams are on completely different levels)

If you have a closer look on Smart/Diaz, you may notice that they mostly competed in Canada this season; they got great levels and goe's there, while their scores and levels at US International weren't that great, for example.

Each team is/was trying to use their (or their coaches) connections to get the results they wanted. I can't say that I'm ok with it (lobbying, politics and etc), but I've already got used to it. It's just the way ice dance is working nowadays, not always but it happens at times.

That being sad, I'm kind of disappointed with Olivia's reaction, especially after last year

 

[MarieM]

The fix was in sorry Ka3sha. It has nothing to do with the coach's connection. (Although Mr Hitman as I call him has his hands in it).
The competition of Zagreb was so badly judged (ask the german) that nearly all the coach (but one) complained officially to the ISU. And is has nothing to do with only ONE judge, it was the whole panel that needs to be examined thoroughly.
My sources are russians, spanish and british.

I mean usually, when it's rigged, the results are what happens on the ice. Not there.
That you ask for very good marks (hello mordovian open), I can accept it. But this wasn't what happened on the ice.

 

[SLIVER]

The fix was in sorry Ka3sha. It has nothing to do with the coach's connection. (Although Mr Hitman as I call him has his hands in it).
The competition of Zagreb was so badly judged (ask the german) that nearly all the coach (but one) complained officially to the ISU. And is has nothing to do with only ONE judge, it was the whole panel that needs to be examined thoroughly.
My sources are russians, spanish and british.

I mean usually, when it's rigged, the results are what happens on the ice. Not there.
That you ask for very good marks (hello mordovian open), I can accept it. But this wasn't what happened on the ice.

'The fix was in' doesn't address the issue though that H/K might actually deserve their place, if you see what I mean.
Are S/D really better, I am not entirely sure? They definitely were not better in the short at Zagreb (the only part I watched closely)
You could also argue the real 'fix' was Esp Fed definite preference to S/D this year and last.
While the way the result was achieved might be questionable, or a lot worse, i am not sure the actual result itself is wrong.
Lastly, it looks like Smart had no doubts they were the ones going to the Olys from her tweet, why? I don't see them as always superior to H/K, it was always going to be close. Also, it's been addressed before but what about last year's worlds selection. Pretty awful and 'fixed' too.
This 'sport' is such a mess and the fact that we keep saying 'it's subjective' doesn't help. There are plenty of objective critirea for this stuff not to happen but it just doesn't stop!

 

[MarieM]

That's why using Zagreb, then trying to "fix" in the nationals was never going to be a good idea.
IMO Sara & Kyriil are the better skaters, Kyril at least is. But they are not coached properly and IMO, their levels are always going to be a problem. Their SD is not good, but their FD is good. And I do find suspicious the way they kept withdrawing from events where the panel wasn't going to be on their side all season long. Because that's what it looks like.
Olivia&Adri have a strong SD, but their FD basically sucks. They have nonetheless no problems getting most of their levels. They haven't shyed out competing despite having very poor results in the season's beginning.

As for the national's performance, I would have gone with the same winner, but with less point difference. It all comes down to levels IMO. And the MTRL team was cleaner, Sara&Kyril were typical Zhulin's skaters.
They are both "young" teams and I can't see any connection between Sara&Kyril and a very light one with Olivia&Adri.

So yeah, it was going to be a close call, but at least I wish it was done with a better international competition to judge it in. Because Zagreb as a whole shouldn't count for anyone.

 

[SLIVER]

That's why using Zagreb, then trying to "fix" in the nationals was never going to be a good idea.
IMO Sara & Kyriil are the better skaters, Kyril at least is. But they are not coached properly and IMO, their levels are always going to be a problem. Their SD is not good, but their FD is good. And I do find suspicious the way they kept withdrawing from events where the panel wasn't going to be on their side all season long. Because that's what it looks like.
Olivia&Adri have a strong SD, but their FD basically sucks. They have nonetheless no problems getting most of their levels. They haven't shyed out competing despite having very poor results in the season's beginning.

As for the national's performance, I would have gone with the same winner, but with less point difference. It all comes down to levels IMO. And the MTRL team was cleaner, Sara&Kyril were typical Zhulin's skaters.
They are both "young" teams and I can't see any connection between Sara&Kyril and a very light one with Olivia&Adri.

So yeah, it was going to be a close call, but at least I wish it was done with a better international competition to judge it in. Because Zagreb as a whole shouldn't count for anyone.

Fair point but what do u say to the team that had a 4pt lead in Zagreb? 'Sorry we are not counting this event anymore, sorry about your 4pt lead, it is now all about nationals?'
You can see how that would have caused its own outcry and controversy, especially especially after last year and the way the Fed didn't send H/K to worlds.

 

[MsZem]

Looking at Smart's tweets, apparently she also feels that she and Diaz deserved the Olympic spot because they were the ones who had qualified it. If this were the case, Voronov, Kovtun and Tuktemysheva would have all been Olympians by now.

So yeah, it was going to be a close call, but at least I wish it was done with a better international competition to judge it in. Because Zagreb as a whole shouldn't count for anyone.

It really is too bad that Spain only has the one Euros spot. This is a classic case where a Euros skateoff would have been the best solution.

ETA:

I do find suspicious the way they kept withdrawing from events where the panel wasn't going to be on their side all season long. Because that's what it looks like.

IIRC, they WD from two CS events - Lombardia and Ice Star Minsk. Lombardia was due to Hurtado's injury. Was there any other competition that they withdrew from? If not, I don't see how this is a fair accusation.

 

[starrynight]

I noticed that Javier Raya also won Spanish Nationals but won't be going to the Olympics because his combined Golden Spin + Nationals score is lower than Felipe Montoya's.

So this qualification method also affected mens singles.

I usually find that skaters loudly complaining about judging etc comes back to bite them. It didn't do Gilles/Poirier much good and V/M will be always trying to live down some of those post-Sochi press conferences.

 

[Emilia12]

That's why using Zagreb, then trying to "fix" in the nationals was never going to be a good idea.
IMO Sara & Kyriil are the better skaters, Kyril at least is. But they are not coached properly and IMO, their levels are always going to be a problem. Their SD is not good, but their FD is good. And I do find suspicious the way they kept withdrawing from events where the panel wasn't going to be on their side all season long. Because that's what it looks like.
Olivia&Adri have a strong SD, but their FD basically sucks. They have nonetheless no problems getting most of their levels. They haven't shyed out competing despite having very poor results in the season's beginning.

As for the national's performance, I would have gone with the same winner, but with less point difference. It all comes down to levels IMO. And the MTRL team was cleaner, Sara&Kyril were typical Zhulin's skaters.
They are both "young" teams and I can't see any connection between Sara&Kyril and a very light one with Olivia&Adri.

So yeah, it was going to be a close call, but at least I wish it was done with a better international competition to judge it in. Because Zagreb as a whole shouldn't count for anyone.

They withdrew a couple of competitions because of Sara's Injury, and they surely shouldn't be blamed for that!

 

[marbri]

Madison Hubbell IG storied a pic of the Spanish podium with Sara & Kirill cropped out.

The two teams she shows on IG story are Montreal teams. David Baden always crops podiums to show his clients only. Others crop people out for similar reasons. I'm sure Madison is upset for her partner and his Olympic dreams but I don't think the fact she shows a cropped photo of two Montreal teams is indicative of anything.


-----------------------------

And a general pet peeve of mine is saying "okay, maybe they cheated but I think the result was correct so it´s not a big deal". It doesn't matter how close two teams are if the judges have already made their mind up prior to the competition and the result is what you wished. It´s always wrong.

As to the specific case. While I prefer S/D to H/K I think a precedent was set last year that benefitted one over the other and when exceptions are made they can be a blessing one year and a curse the other. I just feel for the teams it happened this way when 1/4 of the criteria seems questionable. I don't know the details and didnt watch the competitions, all I know is the BLR judge was removed from the panel and it appears not for health reasons. That alone must make it a difficult pill to swallow.

 

[MsZem]

I usually find that skaters loudly complaining about judging etc comes back to bite them. It didn't do Gilles/Poirier much good and V/M will be always trying to live down some of those post-Sochi press conferences.

Or about federation decisions. The Dambier/Contesti/FFSG spat back in 2006 comes to mind (though Contesti was eventually able to switch to representing Italy) and Melissa Bulanhagui came to regret her reaction to being passed over for Olympic qualifying back in 2013.

This is why selection criteria should be clear, transparent, and adhered to.

 

[starrynight]

I remember last year everyone was so shocked when Sara and Kyrill were bypassed. The common argument then was 'how could a team who won Nationals not be sent to Worlds' (H/K won handily and as I remember it had the highest SD score). But Smart/Diaz were sent anyway by the fed. In different circumstances I'd feel sorry for Smart/Diaz... but you can't argue against the things you benefited from just recently.

I also think it's been a while since Team Montreal hasn't got its way. I think they are so used to controlling the dialogue in ice dance that they are bit surprised this one slipped away on them.

I also prefer Sara & Kyrill's free dance for the Olympics. It has a strong Spanish flavour and international audiences will identify with it - which is important for a team which won't be in the top group. I think it's a good program to represent Spain.

 

[MsZem]

I remember last year everyone was so shocked when Sara and Kyrill were bypassed. The common argument then was 'how could a team who won Nationals not be sent to Worlds' (H/K won handily and as I remember it had the highest SD score). But Smart/Diaz were sent anyway by the fed. In different circumstances I'd feel sorry for Smart/Diaz... but you can't argue against the things you benefited from just recently.

Last season H/K won Nationals easily and came ahead in the qualification criteria (something to do with short dance TES, IIRC). Both Hurtado and Khaliavin's public reactions to the federation's decision were along the lines of "this is disappointing, but we're proud of how we skated and looking ahead to next season". Sometimes you really should count to ten before tweeting.

 

[chapis]

And last year the whole situation was clear, it was simply the Spanish federation who decided send to Olivia and Adria over Sara and Kirill because they wanted it. This time the BR judge situation is not clear, I have not seen an official statement from the ISU, so far there are just speculations.

 

[starrynight]

I'm surprised that some skaters' social media isn't more closely policed by their coaches.

Skaters go to so much effort with costumes, hair, makeup, programs ... but sometimes much of the impression they make comes from social media. I can think of a couple of skaters whose online presence undermines a lot of what they attempt to achieve on the ice.

 

[Vera Costa]

Isn't Hubbell dating Diaz and Donahue dating Smart?

IMO, the Spanish fed caught themselves in their own net.

 

[chapis]

And S/D even will be send to Worlds 2018, what other federation does that?. ¨You qualify for the Olympics but you can not go to the Worlds, sorry¨. They will be sent again to the Worlds, not because any criteria say it, but because the Spanish federation says so in the last minute.

 

[lauravvv]

Wow, there really was a big gap between the BLR judge's scores for H/K and S/D.

Except his PCS marks are not out of line with other judges marks at all. Could be very clever judging. It's much more visible in GOE. Also, there is a noticeable difference in three other judges scores for H/K and S/D too. One of them is the Russian judge, though, and the Spanish judge went the opposite way with her marks. The difference in the Turkey judges marks is pretty notable too, but not quite so large.

All in all, it's a real pity that it happened this way, as Hurtado/Khaliavin very likely didn't even need any cheating to win over Smart/Diaz in that competition. They have the better skating skills, and they managed to perform well and without any major mistakes at least in the SD there. But, if they had won over S/D with a few less points, it could have made all the difference overall, allowing S/D to go to Olympics. Although we don't really know what would have been.

 

[Emilia12]

And S/D even will be send to Worlds 2018, what other federation does that?. ¨You qualify for the Olympics but you can not go to the Worlds, sorry¨

That actually is a good compromise. SD won nationals and will be going to worlds, While HK go to the olympics

 

[chapis]

That actually is a good compromise. SD won nationals and will be going to worlds, While HK go to the olympics

yes and I agree but again, what other federation does that?, It would have been great if Mirai was sent to the 2014 Worlds but it was not like that. S/D will be sent again to the Worlds, not because any criteria say it, but because the Spanish federation says so in the last minute. It is clear that they are favored.

 

[MsZem]

yes and I agree but again, what other federation does that?, It would have been great if Mirai was sent to the 2014 Worlds but it was not like that. S/D will be sent again to the Worlds, not because any criteria say it, but because the Spanish federation says so in the last minute. It is clear that they are favored.

The USFSA. In 2014, Jason Brown got the Olympics and Max Aaron went to Worlds.

France also did split assignments (Carron/Jones for the Olympics, Papadakis/Cizeron for Worlds) but I don't remember if that was planned or if C/J retired after Sochi.

 

[MarieM]

Either they go to both, either they go to none. I don't get this at all sorry. I never got it when the french fed used this to soothe someone, I won't be able to get it with any other federation.

And I agree Lauraavvv. They didn't need "help" really.
Unfortunatly, someone in their camp relied on politiks instead of letting the skate speaks. IMO that would have been enough. Their lifts and overall skating is superior to that of Olivia&Adri.

They withdrew a couple of competitions because of Sara's Injury, and they surely shouldn't be blamed for that!

I'm sorry, but the first competition was injury. Second one was because of "difficulties", not injuries (Kyril is supposed to have gone to Spain to get his passport if I recall correctly, and there was a problem with Sara). That wasn't a very good excuse at the time.
It just looks like it was all planned to have them only at Zagreb where everything was muddy enough to have loads of people wondering what happened there. And to have official complaints filed with the ISU by multiple coaches and countries. One of them being the spanish federation itself.

 

[Dobre]

Sigh. We will all survive this ice dance season.

If the Belarusian judge's marks were the highest & lowest for the two Spanish teams, wouldn't his scores be tossed out during the SD and not counted anyway? Unless the high & low scores aren't tossed out during Challengers, in which case this controversy is a good argument that they should be.

And last year the whole situation was clear, it was simply the Spanish federation who decided send to Olivia and Adria over Sara and Kirill because they wanted it.

I think the Spanish Federation changed it's mind last season because Smart & Diaz had a high score at The Bavarian Open--an event which was held after the team selection was supposed to be complete. After Nationals, Hurtado & Khaliavin went to Europeans and Smart & Diaz went to the Bavarian Open. H&K had a tough finish at Euros and S&D had a PB at the Bavarian Open. I do think the Spanish Fed was just trying to maximize its chances of earning an Olympic spot this season. But you can't compare dance scores between a major international and a senior B, much less the performances of a team skating under pressure and a team skating with nothing to lose. And changing your criteria after it has been stated is a very bad precedent. So this year, the Spanish Federation--much more wisely, IMO--chose to use the scores from two head-to-head competitions.

Spain is a country with no real history in ice dance. I can see why they want to use international results, rather than just national judges, to make this decision. Best wishes to them in finding their way through the challenge.

 

[chapis]

The USFSA. In 2014, Jason Brown got the Olympics and Max Aaron went to Worlds.

France also did split assignments (Carron/Jones for the Olympics, Papadakis/Cizeron for Worlds) but I don't remember if that was planned or if C/J retired after Sochi.

great, I did not remember that, too bad that Mirai did not get that kind of deal, and in that case they also did it without relying on any criteria too ?. The point is that S/D have been chosen twice to go to the Worlds without any written or oral previous criteria that certify it, then considering that situation, her hashtag #playfair looks ridiculous.

 

[MsZem]

great, I did not remember that, too bad that Mirai did not get that kind of deal, and in that case they also did it without relying on any criteria too ?. The point is that S/D have been chosen twice to go to the Worlds without any written or oral previous criteria that certify it, then considering that situation, her hashtag #playfair looks ridiculous.

Mirai got 4CCs, which she promptly bombed. In her defense, missing out on Sochi must have been tough to take.

I don't remember what the reasoning was for the men's assignments. Agree that Smart complaining about fairness when she had no trouble with the federation circumventing the rules in her favor does not reflect well upon her.

 

[Enchanted]

H/K skated at Finlandia Trophy this season, so Golden Skate wasn't their first competition.