The Dance Hall 5: Ice Dance Fans 2017-2018

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chapis said:
And S/D even will be send to Worlds 2018, what other federation does that?. ¨You qualify for the Olympics but you can not go to the Worlds, sorry¨. They will be sent again to the Worlds, not because any criteria say it, but because the Spanish federation says so in the last minute.
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Sometimes the criteria for the Olympics and Worlds are different. Did the Spanish fed ever say that Golden Spin + Nats would determine the Worlds spot too? Because as I recall that was only for the Olympics. I don't think I ever saw what the criteria for Worlds are.

It's not so controversial that they follow their official criteria to choose the Olympic team and the National Champs are sent to Worlds, imo.

For example, IIRC, South Korea has 3 National comps to choose teams. The 4CC team is chosen just based on the ranking comp (the 2nd one), the Worlds team just on Nationals, and the Olympic team on the added up scores of all 3.

And I wasn't really following this closely at the time, but did the USFS have different criteria for the Olympics and Worlds in 2013-14?
 
And also, about Olivia and her tweet, she definitely shouldn't have done it. It's not professional. I guess I have some sympathy just because as a university student I know lots of people her age who say stupid stuff all the time. Old enough that you should know better, but young enough that people still do stuff like that a lot.

Anyways when it's something that you've dreamed about your whole life and you feel like it was taken away from you unfairly, I get being upset, and people say/do stupid things when they're upset sometimes. I guess it would be a little hard to swallow when you missed out on the spot be around 1 point, and multiple federations including your own complained about the judging at one of the events.

It's not an excuse or anything,I just sort of get where the response comes from.

Sara and Kirill were very classy with what happened last season, and I respected them for that.
 
RoseRed said:
Sometimes the criteria for the Olympics and Worlds are different. Did the Spanish fed ever say that Golden Spin + Nats would determine the Worlds spot too? Because as I recall that was only for the Olympics. I don't think I ever saw what the criteria for Worlds are.
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Spanish Fed never said anything about Worlds, until a couple of weeks ago at least, even the skaters themselves didn't know Worlds criteria.
 
RoseRed said:
Sometimes the criteria for the Olympics and Worlds are different. Did the Spanish fed ever say that Golden Spin + Nats would determine the Worlds spot too? Because as I recall that was only for the Olympics. I don't think I ever saw what the criteria for Worlds are.

It's not so controversial that they follow their official criteria to choose the Olympic team and the National Champs are sent to Worlds, imo.

For example, IIRC, South Korea has 3 National comps to choose teams. The 4CC team is chosen just based on the ranking comp (the 2nd one), the Worlds team just on Nationals, and the Olympic team on the added up scores of all 3.

And I wasn't really following this closely at the time, but did the USFS have different criteria for the Olympics and Worlds in 2013-14?
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That is precisely the point, that they did not have criteria for the Worlds team, the federation chose to Adria and Olivia, nobody knew how the skaters could to get the worlds spot. S/D are National champions but last year H/K were National champions and they were not chosen. Basically the Spanish federation decide who they want in Worlds and for two straight years they chose to S/D.
 
So H/K vs SD...I am sure it is a difficult situation for the Spanish federation to have two teams very close to each other internationally and teams made from their former, 6 time champions. And while you can talk about last year and H/K, but S/D did not get there by cheating AND I suspect Spain was trying to make the decision to get a spot at the Olympics...which S/D accomplished. Who knows if H/K would have achieved that or not, since they didn't go. And for everyone stating how gracefully H/K handled last year, they are now benefitting from Spain having that Olympic spot.

I agree people need to consider what they post on social media and Olivia's posts were not the best.

What seems clear is that cheating occurred at Zagreb. A judge is not removed and grievances filed for nothing. And honestly...I think the two teams are very, very close and at this point, one can beat the other on any given day. They have both been less than two years teamed up and both are good but with obvious room for development.

But I find it sad and unfortunate that the decision is tainted by cheating. And I find it extremely disappointing that some comments dismiss or ignore the cheating. Cheating is cheating and should not be tolerated. And especially in ice dance where scoring is more easily manipulated on levels and PCS scores because falls are less common than the other disciplines.

So while H/K were indeed gracious last year and Olivia should maybe not have tweeted her thoughts, I would personally have a hard time immediately accepting the outcome when cheating was involved.

And sadly...no one wins in this situation...not H/K, S/D, ISU, ice dance or fans.
 
Per GS, Lucie Mysliveckova has her Slovakian citizenship now.

jbuckbee said:
And sadly...no one wins in this situation...not H/K, S/D, ISU, ice dance or fans.
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We win a little. If a judge was found cheating during a competition and either forced off the panel or compelled to withdraw, then it sends the right message. Plus, there's a mighty good chance said judge won't be at the next event. (Of course, all of this is presuming the judge's fairness was in question and that he did not actually fall ill, have a family emergency, etc).

Also, I refuse to agree that--as a fan--I don't win at all. Hurtado & Khaliavin won three of four portions of two competitions. Even if people wish to dismiss the Golden Spin results, H&K had--IMO--the best SD skate of their current partnership there. It should be celebrated. And they won the FD at Nationals while coming from behind in a high-stress scenario. I'm proud of them.

And I'm sure the people rooting for Smart & Diaz are proud of them for fighting so well in the SD at Nationals, while themselves coming from behind and facing a high-stress situation.

Two years ago, we had neither Sara nor Adria skating. Today we all win.
 
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Dobre said:
Per GS, Lucie Mysliveckova has her Slovakian citizenship now.



We win a little. If a judge was found cheating during a competition and either forced off the panel or compelled to withdraw, then it sends the right message. Plus, there's a mighty good chance said judge won't be at the next event. (Of course, all of this is presuming the judge's fairness was in question and that he did not actually fall ill, have a family emergency, etc).

Also, I refuse to agree that--as a fan--I don't win at all. Hurtado & Khaliavin won three of four portions of two competitions. Even if people wish to dismiss the Golden Spin results, H&K had--IMO--the best SD skate of their current partnership there. It should be celebrated. And they won the FD at Nationals while coming from behind in a high-stress scenario. I'm proud of them.

And I'm sure the people rooting for Smart & Diaz are proud of them for fighting so well in the SD at Nationals, while themselves coming from behind and facing a high-stress situation.

Two years ago, we had neither Sara nor Adria skating. Today we all win.
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We can agree to disagree.
 
jbuckbee said:
And while you can talk about last year and H/K, but S/D did not get there by cheating AND I suspect Spain was trying to make the decision to get a spot at the Olympics...which S/D accomplished. Who knows if H/K would have achieved that or not, since they didn't go. And for everyone stating how gracefully H/K handled last year, they are now benefitting from Spain having that Olympic spot.
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The Spanish federation had very clear criteria for last year's Worlds assignment. H/K were the team that met it. If the federation has concerns about their performance at Euros, they could have told them to do another event in order to monitor their readiness for Worlds. Instead, they gave the assignment to S/D based on their score at a minor Senior B. That it worked out in hindsight doesn't make it right. But maybe Smart feels that her federation should ignore its criteria in her favor every year.

It's very likely that either S/D or H/K could have qualified a spot at Nebelhorn had Worlds not worked out.

Smart has apparently deleted her "read the forums to learn about dodgy judging" tweet.

levineismine said:
Skating scores just posted the visuals for Golden Spin, here is the SD where you can see judges nationalities and ordinal ranking of teams:
http://skatingscores.com/2018/cscro/dance/short/
(but after this we can probably move on to Russian Nationals discussion...)
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Ooooh, interesting. It seems like some of the marks were more reflective of what happened than others ;)
 
Zemgirl said:
The Spanish federation had very clear criteria for last year's Worlds assignment. H/K were the team that met it. If the federation has concerns about their performance at Euros, they could have told them to do another event in order to monitor their readiness for Worlds. Instead, they gave the assignment to S/D based on their score at a minor Senior B. That it worked out in hindsight doesn't make it right. But maybe Smart feels that her federation should ignore its criteria in her favor every year.

It's very likely that either S/D or H/K could have qualified a spot at Nebelhorn had Worlds not worked out.

Smart has apparently deleted her "read the forums to learn about dodgy judging" tweet.


Ooooh, interesting. It seems like some of the marks were more reflective of what happened than others ;)
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The Spanish fed doing something shady last year was wrong, but just because S/D benefitted doesn't make them responsible for it. And who says she thinks they should ignore the criteria? If she feels like they deserved higher scores at Golden Spin, which she probably does, then she probably thinks she and Adria would have won based on the official criteria if not for cheating. The final difference in the added scores was under 1 point, so I wouldn't be surprised if she thinks a corrupt judge is the only reason they didn't win the official criteria. I'm not saying I agree with her, and I've already said she shouldn't have posted it, but I don't think what happened last year would change how she feels and I wouldn't really expect it to. I don't think the fed is really what she's upset with. Wasn't the suggestion that that judge was very pro Zhulin teams? She wouldn't be blaming the Spanish fed for that.

Again, she shouldn't have said it. But it doesn't make sense to say she doesn't get to feel upset (preferably privately) about cheating judges possibly costing her a trip to the Olympics just because her fed favours her team.
 
Zemgirl said:
Smart has apparently deleted her "read the forums to learn about dodgy judging" tweet.
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Probably for the best - for her. Because then people would also come here and read about what happened last season re: Worlds, not to mention everyone pointing out how ill-thought out that tweet was. ;)
 
So, Russian nationals ! Short Dance is Thursday, 8:30pm Moscow time.

Pronostics : 1.B/S 2.S/B (not so far from B/S) 3.S/K
But, if the olympic teams is decided only after Europeans, I wouldn't be surprised either...
 
As much as I was "entertained" by Smart's tweets even if they may have stung H/K, especially with the noted skaters and more liking her tweets knowing how she feels, and think she should have handled herself better (even if I understood why she posted what she posted), I do think Olivia Smart has a legitimate point. Even if the BLR judge's scores were thrown out, who is to say another judge would not have scored in a way where his/her scores would have counted in the SD and FD and tipped the scale in S/D's favor? Also, the fact that competition was tainted does seem to me that it would have been best to discard Golden Spin's scores. But the Spanish Fed should have done that once they reported the BLR judge and notified all teams that only Spanish Nationals would have counted to provide adequate notice. Was there another senior B they could have also sent both teams to do as well to replace Golden Spin?
 
Re. Golden Spin:
Besides BLR judge, Turkish judge scores of Z/G, BLR, and TUR teams are quite baffling.
And as someone was pointing out, the BLR&RUS judges votes often go together and indicate some Zhulin vs non Zhulin teams split.

Re. Russian Nationals:
I also think it will be B/S, S/B, and S/K.
Will be interesting to see also places 4-6 between Z/G, L/D and P/M.
 
levineismine said:
Skating scores just posted the visuals for Golden Spin, here is the SD where you can see judges nationalities and ordinal ranking of teams:
http://skatingscores.com/2018/cscro/dance/short/
(but after this we can probably move on to Russian Nationals discussion...)
Click to expand...

My take, looking briefly at those score sheets .... It was a competition with a lot of mid-ranked teams who are often fairly close together in standings/scores/etc. In that kind of situation, you often see teams trading places, sometimes unexpectedly, as well as messy "ordinal" placements, if you will (tricky to look at ordinal placements, since IJS is not an ordinal system). I am not sure if what went on with the Golden Spin scoring is more unusual than what happens at at other events or not. What I see from these score sheets, more than anything else, is a lack of consensus among the judges once you get below the top 2 teams. All the other teams' PCS "ordinals" are somewhat all over the place. Even from a quick glance, there were quite a few instances of judges' marks not in line with the others in PCS, and this didn't involve only the BLR/RUS judges but also TUR, GER, USA, and probably others as well if you took the time to look into it. Zahorski/Guerriero's scores were definitely the most :confused: of all (TUR judge gives them 5s in PCS while Agafonova/Ucar get 8s :lol:)--much worse than anything that happened to the Spanish teams. I honestly am not sure how much of what went on was just ordinary erratic scoring, with maybe some nationalist bias thrown in here & there, versus actual planned cheating (which always seems like it would be so complicated under IJS). As an example--what other team at the event would benefit from Zahorski/Guerreiro being scored in such a way?
 
those scores only show how little skillful and/or inconspicuous some judges can be to benefit their skaters. In Golden Spin and all the competitions there are very clear patterns, even in Golden spin you can see how once again Spain was favoring S/D. If Zhulin was really asking for favors, it is clear that he asked for it to not the brightest bulb in the box. They kicked him out in the middle of the competition and discarded their scores of the short dance, he/she seemed first-timer :rofl:.

And yes, I wonder why they kicked out to the BR judge but they had no problem with the Turkish judge.
 
levineismine said:
I think red is for lowest score and green for highest score (on that element/category)
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That doesn't make sense for what I am seeing on my computer because in one line I am looking at 3 scores are in red and they aren't all the lowest score. Whoever did this is trying to show something but I can't figure it out lol.
 
I think I figured out part of it, now will work on the significance of part of it. It will be like a jigsaw puzzle where I walk by and if I see a piece that fits I´ll place it, if I don't I´ll just carry on with life.
 
From those visuals, I see that 2 "non-controversial" judges (Italy and USA) scored S/D higher in the Short Dance, but preferred H/K in the Free Dance. Then, the replacement judge (Israel) who I assume is also non-controversial also went with H/K in the FD.

For me, there's two separate issues at hand. The never ending battle with suspect judging; were there irregularities in the judging at Golden Spin? And just in terms of the two Spanish teams, is the Olympic decision correct in relation to the performances delivered at Golden Spin and Nationals? I believe the answer to this question is yes.

Beyond the math, the scores are useless if not serving to reflect and differentiate between a good skate and a better one. I've watched all the videos, and don't see anything that contradicts H/K delivering the better performances across the two events.

H/K were clearly better in the Short at Golden Spin and better in the Free at Nationals. S/D had the strongest Short at Nationals, but at Golden Spin at best SD's Free could only be called a draw with H/K's.
 
chapis said:
great, I did not remember that, too bad that Mirai did not get that kind of deal, and in that case they also did it without relying on any criteria too ?.
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Just wanted to correct this. USFS had different criteria for Worlds and Olympics. Max beat Jason in the Worlds criteria.
 
levineismine said:
Skating scores just posted the visuals for Golden Spin, here is the SD where you can see judges nationalities and ordinal ranking of teams:
http://skatingscores.com/2018/cscro/dance/short/
(but after this we can probably move on to Russian Nationals discussion...)
Click to expand...

The Skating Scores site graphics are pretty amazing. I saw one earlier this year, but didn't realize it was being done regularly. Picking apart ordinals used to be very doable, but trying to match judges to scores under IJS . . . no way we have the time.



Thoughts on Russian Nationals:
I think the most interesting battle is the one for 4-6th. Not sure what to expect.

Program/choreography/presentation-wise, I like Popova & Mozgov's Carmen the best. It's an ace in their favor, but I don't know if their technical mark holds up. They have had the most directly upward trajectory this season so their momentum is good.

Zagorski & Guerreiro have the highest SB and the advantage of a good finish at last year's Nationals, but their GP scores are comparable to Popova & Mozgov's SB. Z&G have gotten level 4 on the rhumba at least twice so that's in their favor in the SD. Their TES didn't hold up as well in the FD at most of their competitions.

Loboda & Drozd are strong skaters. Long-term potential wise, I really like them. But the programs are a poor fit this season, and they've had costly mistakes in the last couple competitions so momentum-wise, they're the underdogs this season.
 
misskarne said:
Just wanted to correct this. USFS had different criteria for Worlds and Olympics. Max beat Jason in the Worlds criteria.
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Source?

AFAIK, the only difference in the selection criteria for the 2014 Olympic team v. the World team was that the national champion was guaranteed a world berth (though this has since changed). Since neither Brown or Aaron were the national champ, this difference in criteria did not apply to them. The committee just decided to split the assignments.
 
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