Ross Miner Out Of Olympic Team (OFFICIAL)

[Seerek]

You don’t think Mike Weiss could have bumped Matt?

For 2006, I don't think so, IMO. Matt was pretty safe in the "head-to-head" vs Weiss.

Using BOW as we know it:
Matt placed ahead of Weiss at both 2005 and 2006 US Nationals
Grand Prix was pretty much a wash (Savoie 5th at Skate Canada ahead of Weir, Weiss 6th at Trophee de France with a lower total score than Savoie).

 

[4rkidz]

Alas because you do not want people to act like figure skating is a real sport and have any passion about it.

You apparently have never seen how real sports coaches behavior towards officials. They scream. They kick dirt. They throw things. They get thrown out of stadiums.

Then there is you, who feels upset because people vent on an internet message board. Pathetic.

I am very involved with sports both as an official and parent of a former national athlete and a sport is not determined 'real' by how rude, obnoxious and ignorant you are. Even the athletes themselves (who did not make any of the decisions) are being abused online by bullies. Passion does not equal bullying. You can vent and bitch online without personalizing it towards athletes or other posters. Moreover, you have provided a perfect example by calling me pathetic.

 

[gkelly]

I have been saying for years us nationals needs to get international callers in.

But that could lead to a different sort of manipulation that favors slightly weaker skaters for higher placements and holds down the strongest US skaters....
Instead, I think the USFS needs to work more intensively with tech panels and judges to get their markings more in alignment to what international judges are seeing as to element calls and deficiencies, levels, GOE, and PCS marks.

They could just make sure that the technical panels at the championship level in Olympic years are highly experienced controllers and specialists with international appointments. Let the newer officials call junior and lower events, and seniors in off years.

IMO, this will give a big boost to the younger up-and-comers as better trained in the "new way of thinking", just as when the judging system changed and those who were trained in the new mind-set on jumping (from UR or 2ft is better than falling to falling is better than UR or 2ft) had a big advantage.

I wouldn't say that falling is better than two-footing. The GOE reductions are similar and if there's no fall there will be no fall deduction.

I would say that underrotating, especially severe underrotation that results in a downgrade call, is the most costly error a skater can make even if it is the only error. But often underrotated/downgraded jumps also land on two feet or end in falls, in which case they score even less.

Put another way, it is better to rotate and not land on one foot than to land on one foot but not rotate.

 

[Willin]

They could just make sure that the technical panels at the championship level in Olympic years are highly experienced controllers and specialists with international appointments. Let the newer officials call junior and lower events, and seniors in off years.

I don't always like The Skating Protocol because the guy who does it is friends with Dave and can be kind of catty or conspiracy-stirring, but his notation of what certification level each judge has is really interesting and helpful.

For instance, here he noted that the judges to give Ashley the lowest PCS at Nationals were the three internationally rated judges.

Also of note, most of the technical panel people for all the senior events are ISU certified.

 

[Seerek]

Sorry, incorrect facts.

 

[barbk]

I think ice dance is a bad example. Without the difficult jumps, ice dance is the one discipline that is fairly predictable. With singles, it is a lot less so. It is not unheard of for a singles skater to have the "skate of her life" at the Olympics and defy all predictions--hello, Adelina and to a slightly lesser extent, Sarah Hughes. There have been surprise medalists who over-achieve at the big event among the men, too--Denis Ten and Paul Wylie are two who come to mind. I think the weight should go to the standings at Nationals. If someone can't perform at this big event, why should we expect them to do so at the even bigger event? And even if they can, are they really medal contenders? I can't even think of a past situation where not going with the top 2 or 3 who were eligible would have been a better choice--except in the case of a skater missing Nationals because of injury and being a gold medal contender (Nancy Kerrigan, Michelle Kwan).

Ross:
Last season: 9th/10 at Cup of China, 12/12 at Skate Canada, 6th/13 at US Classic (Senior B)s; 5th at Nationals.
Not exactly a stellar showing, then better at Nationals. And I don't buy the "it's early in the season" excuse for his GP performance. Other people showed up and competed better.
At Cup of China, he scored 213.
At Skate Canada, he scored 196.
At US Classic, he scored 214. (Rippon was at 248.)
At US Nationals, he scored 240.34.

This season: 6/10 at SkAm, 6/14 at Autumn Classic (Senior B), 6/18 at Finlandia (Senior B); 2nd at Nationals.
Meh showing at his one GP (He scored 219. Rippon in 2nd was at 264.)
At the Finlandia, he did a bit better, but still behind Rippon. (He scored 233; Rippon scored 249.)
At the Canadian Classic, he scored 219. Bronze medalist was at 248 (Keegan Messing )
GREAT program at Nationals - 274.51.

Sesame Street used to have a little ditty: "One of these things is not like the other; one of these things just doesn't belong." Ross's 2018 Nationals score is a classic outlier. Unless Nationals is the ONLY comp that counts, it is hard to look at any analysis where you don't see 2018 Nationals as more likely a fluke than not.

 

[OnyxRose81]

Using Sarah Hughes as an example doesn't paint the whole picture. She wasn't a favorite to win, no, but her resume was miles better than Miner. She was a multiple Nationals, Grand Prix medalist and won a Worlds bronze. She didn't come out of nowhere.

 

[tony]

Using Sarah Hughes as an example doesn't paint the whole picture. She wasn't a favorite to win, no, but her resume was miles better than Miner. She was a multiple Nationals, Grand Prix medalist and won a Worlds bronze. She didn't come out of nowhere.

She also beat both Slutskaya and Kwan at Skate Canada that season and won the bronze medal behind them at the Grand Prix Final. She definitely had thrown her name in as a favorite for a medal regardless of her Nationals placement.

 

[caseyedwards]

Using Sarah Hughes as an example doesn't paint the whole picture. She wasn't a favorite to win, no, but her resume was miles better than Miner. She was a multiple Nationals, Grand Prix medalist and won a Worlds bronze. She didn't come out of nowhere.

Hughes resume was miles better than rippon!!

 

[legjumper]

Well, Ross certainly had to know that his chances of making in the top 3 were very slim. And, after the short program, he was in 6th place.

I kind of got the feeling he was skating that free skate as though it was his last competitive program, so he basically went balls to the wall with it.

He may have been in a completely different mental state if he knew he had a legitimate shot at the top 3 (Adam and Jason had not skated yet.) Just speculation, of course.

I do think it's rotten that Ross was not named 1st alternate to Olys.

Now that the skaters are all aware that in an Olympic year, only the few who performed well on the GP or in ISU Championships in the past 18 months have any real chance to make the Olympic team, might we see more Ross-like performances from those without the body of work, and more Adam- and Jason-like performances from those in the conversation? Would Adam and Jason have been more relaxed and skated better knowing they could fully rely on their body of work to save them?

I think also with this body of work discussion that there are two groups of body-of-work-ers: those who need to place top 3 (or even top 2, or even win) to get to the Olympics, and those for whom 4th or even 5th is good enough for consideration. Skaters like Max Aaron probably needed to be the in top 3 to prop up the rest of their body of work. Skaters like Adam and Jason didn't - no, USFS didn't name Jason to the team, but a 6th (6th!!) place finish was good enough to be named first Olympic alternate and first Worlds alternate (and in an Olympic year, there's often a good chance that the 1st alternate will go to Worlds)! That's mind-boggling to me. Top Nationals results now appear to be primarily valuable to those "on the cusp" - those whose body of work isn't wholly convincing on its face, so they need an extra boost from Nationals.

And I still, for the life of me, cannot understand Max Aaron getting 4CC over Grant Hochstein, who has significantly out-performed him at the last two Nationals (a Tier 1 criterion).

 

[VGThuy]

I thought 2017 Nationals was a Tier 3 criterion.

 

[barbk]

I think also with this body of work discussion that there are two groups of body-of-work-ers: those who need to place top 3 (or even top 2, or even win) to get to the Olympics, and those for whom 4th or even 5th is good enough for consideration. Skaters like Max Aaron probably needed to be the in top 3 to prop up the rest of their body of work. Skaters like Adam and Jason didn't - no, USFS didn't name Jason to the team, but a 6th (6th!!) place finish was good enough to be named first Olympic alternate and first Worlds alternate (and in an Olympic year, there's often a good chance that the 1st alternate will go to Worlds)! That's mind-boggling to me. Top Nationals results now appear to be primarily valuable to those "on the cusp" - those whose body of work isn't wholly convincing on its face, so they need an extra boost from Nationals.

And I still, for the life of me, cannot understand Max Aaron getting 4CC over Grant Hochstein, who has significantly out-performed him at the last two Nationals (a Tier 1 criterion).

I think you're absolutely correct on your body-of-work analysis in the first paragraph. Nathan could have finished in 6th at Nationals and he'd still be packing for Korea. Others need to do more. With BOW, that makes plenty of sense.

Grant also had a markedly better Nationals than he did at earlier events this year: 255 at Nat'ls, vs. 216, 206, 217.
Max had a worse Nationals than his fall: 224 at Nat'ls, vs. 237, 259, 261.
I certainly could have gone the other way, but I can see that a committee might consider that Max's potential was likely higher than Grant's.

 

[Willin]

I don't get why people are saying that Body of Work should only be for those at the very, very top.

I think the most important part of Body of Work is to separate those who are not obvious favorites. For instance, Nathan was obviously going regardless of placement. For Vincent, Jason, Adam, Grant, Ross, and Max, how would you differentiate between them if all of them hit at Nationals, or even with some bombing? How would you decide which of these men should be picked or given favor over the others in the discussion? Body of Work.
You can determine which of these athletes have the highest scores over the course of the season, which skater has been most consistent, which of them has the highest called BV that season, which ones get the best PCS from international judges, which skaters have caved or soared under pressure, which skater has medals and at what level of competition, how they've stacked up head-to-head, etc. etc. That's how you separate those skaters who are not locks.

 

[SpeedySucks]

I don't get why people are saying that Body of Work should only be for those at the very, very top.

I think the most important part of Body of Work is to separate those who are not obvious favorites. For instance, Nathan was obviously going regardless of placement. For Vincent, Jason, Adam, Grant, Ross, and Max, how would you differentiate between them if all of them hit at Nationals, or even with some bombing? How would you decide which of these men should be picked or given favor over the others in the discussion? Body of Work.
You can determine which of these athletes have the highest scores over the course of the season, which skater has been most consistent, which of them has the highest called BV that season, which ones get the best PCS from international judges, which skaters have caved or soared under pressure, which skater has medals and at what level of competition, how they've stacked up head-to-head, etc. etc. That's how you separate those skaters who are not locks.

Exactly - Body of Work is very helpful in determining the consistent skaters who will finish in the 6th-10th range at Worlds, which is critical for maintaining 3 spots for the next year.

 

[caseyedwards]

I don't get why people are saying that Body of Work should only be for those at the very, very top.

I think the most important part of Body of Work is to separate those who are not obvious favorites. For instance, Nathan was obviously going regardless of placement. For Vincent, Jason, Adam, Grant, Ross, and Max, how would you differentiate between them if all of them hit at Nationals, or even with some bombing? How would you decide which of these men should be picked or given favor over the others in the discussion? Body of Work.
You can determine which of these athletes have the highest scores over the course of the season, which skater has been most consistent, which of them has the highest called BV that season, which ones get the best PCS from international judges, which skaters have caved or soared under pressure, which skater has medals and at what level of competition, how they've stacked up head-to-head, etc. etc. That's how you separate those skaters who are not locks.

Because all journeyman like rippon and miner are basically the same! They can hit they can flop but never like can win a gpf or worlds or Olympics so who cares about giving them special treatment!!

 

[caseyedwards]

Exactly - Body of Work is very helpful in determining the consistent skaters who will finish in the 6th-10th range at Worlds, which is critical for maintaining 3 spots for the next year.

So you send rippon to worlds!! So you send miner to Olympics!

 

[Deleted member 53443]

I understand that a better skater was sent to the Olympics, and perhaps it was a blessing in disguise for Ross, since he would probably end up waaaay behind in that competition.

But I think some hypocrisy is in the whole packaging of the Nationals in an Olympic year. Because it is so hyped up as a connection to it. I mean, every friggin commercial break on NBC was bloated with Olympic fluff.

When Adam said the only way he won't go to the Olympics was if his competitors' mothers were in the committee he turned out to be actually factual. He was already in. I doubt this competition served for anything concerning the selection.

Now, I happen to like the fact that sports is not always fair. If the Miracle On Ice game would be played 25 more times, the Soviets would win all 25. But that one single miracle is what counted, and was probably the most memorable game in sports history.

So, yes, it's rational to send Adam to the Olympics. But stop the charade that NBC is making out of the Nationals every fourth year. If you want real drama, real sports, then 1-2-3 goes to Olympics, final. It opens up for miracles without committees. I like that but I understand that it's not rational.

 

[Yazmeen]

Because all journeyman like rippon and miner are basically the same! They can hit they can flop but never like can win a gpf or worlds or Olympics so who cares about giving them special treatment!!

QUAD!!! QUADQUADQUAD!!! Nothing else matters!!!! They can have level 1 everything else but if they land at least one QUAD they should be placed higher!!!! QUADS rule and win - period!!!!

There: I've translated your posts for everyone to save them the time waste of reading your non-stop blather.

 

[vesperholly]

So you send rippon to worlds!! So you send miner to Olympics!

I find that even more insulting. "Thanks for being reliable and always earning those 3 spots. You don't get the ultimate reward of going to the Olympics though!"

 

[caseyedwards]

QUAD!!! QUADQUADQUAD!!! Nothing else matters!!!! They can have level 1 everything else but if they land at least one QUAD they should be placed higher!!!! QUADS rule and win - period!!!!

There: I've translated your posts for everyone to save them the time waste of reading your non-stop blather.

What a silly post in the multi quad short era!! Short programs commonly have two quads!! This is great! Now all mens potential is being rewarded and people so quad flips and level 4 spins and steps and have great artistry! Everything is coming together! It’s a great time! Now there is rarely regress for success! Quads are now common and not punished! I always supported skaters trying to maximize all their potential and not pretend people who stopped at quads someohow had everything.

I find that even more insulting. "Thanks for being reliable and always earning those 3 spots. You don't get the ultimate reward of going to the Olympics though!"

Since rippon didn’t actually earn anything - not worlds or Olympics he shouldn’t go anywhere but if you want to be nice maybe worlds.

 

[giselle23]

delete

 

[bardtoob]

Then there is you, who feels upset because people vent on an internet message board. Pathetic.

Moreover, you have provided a perfect example by calling me pathetic.

While I was clearly intending to be critical of your position, I am sorry that my use of the word pathetic resulted in your emotional distress.

I have stated clearly why I think the selection BY THE COMMITTEE is wrong for not selecting Ross, including the way Ross acted like his program was not finished until it was finished.

I hope Adam and Vincent perform significantly better in the future and have good well being in the present as they did not select themselves for the team. I certainly expect them to accept their assignments and go to the Olympics.

 

[nekkidgator]

I am disgusted by Rippon because he performed like a fabulous loser, which is his responsibility, and the committee is supposed to select winners to represent the country, which is their responsibility.

Your repeated use of the term "fabulous" loser sounds like a gay insult to me and I am offended. I wasn't born yesterday so don't try to spin this any other way. It is noted you did not use any other similar adjective like fantastic, exceptional. super, etc. You intentionally chose "fabulous" for the first ever openly gay member of the U.S. men's Olympic team. Combined with the word "disgust" of Rippon (just an athlete competing) and I think your homophobic feelings are loud and clear.

 

[overedge]

I always supported skaters trying to maximize all their potential

Yes, as I recall you were thrilled in 2010 when Evan Lysacek maximized his potential by winning the Olympic gold medal

 

[bardtoob]

Your repeated use of the term "fabulous" loser sounds like a gay insult to me and I am offended.

I actually think Adam's skating is fabulous, brilliant, exceptionally finished, etc . . . I am just very frustrated at the pit of my stomach that he singled two jumps in a row so spectacularly.

If I was what you are suggesting, then I probably would not admire Johnny Weir (over Evan) and Rudy Galindo (viciously over Todd) as much as I do. I love me some the Swan, Otonal, and Modern Jazz Swan Lake . . . Just watched all of them {{chills}}

 

[Foolhardy Ham Lint]

QUAD!!! QUADQUADQUAD!!! Nothing else matters!!!! They can have level 1 everything else but if they land at least one QUAD they should be placed higher!!!! QUADS rule and win - period!!!!

There: I've translated your posts for everyone to save them the time waste of reading your non-stop blather.

Carlo Fassi's prediction from 20 years ago was right. Kids with eastern genetics are dominating the sport with their slim - hipped frames, and instinctive drive.

 

[nekkidgator]

ITA that, while the tier system existed long enough to give notice, it has not been made clear how far Nats has fallen as a factor in team-picking. Not only was a silver insufficient to secure placement on the Oly team (normally, it would be the bronze medalist who got kicked), a silver isn't even enough to secure placement as first alternate.

Nationals has fallen SO FAR in importance that exactly one spot out of 10 Olympic spots between the four disciplines...yes, ONE OLYMPIC SPOT...went against the standings at Nationals. It went to a skater who placed 7 or so points back, or about the base value of a 3lutz in the bonus. OMG, the apocalypse is nigh, nationals is irrelevant...only it isn't.

 

[PRlady]

Carlo Fassi's prediction from 20 years ago was right. Kids with eastern genetics are dominating the sport with their slim - hipped frames, and instinctive drive.

"Instinctive drive?" Pardon me, but that's a racist formulation.

It's one thing to note that a lot of Asians are small and thin, which lends itself to figure skating. (Although if you read the stats on increasing obesity in China, for example, you'll realize that no 'genetics' are immune to cultural changes.)

But no group of people has instinctive drive. There are cultural factors in some groups, particularly in the immigration generation, that lead parents to put a lot of pressure on their kids to succeed, but it's very hard to quantify and usually falls apart under closer inspection. The Tiger mom stereotype is just that, and the longer Asians (and Jews, the other so-called high-achieving group) stay in America, the more their family dynamics become the American norm.

I realize that this is a complimentary stereotype and not a nasty one, but it's wrong nevertheless.

 

[Anita18]

"Instinctive drive?" Pardon me, but that's a racist formulation.

It's one thing to note that a lot of Asians are small and thin, which lends itself to figure skating. (Although if you read the stats on increasing obesity in China, for example, you'll realize that no 'genetics' are immune to cultural changes.)

But no group of people has instinctive drive. There are cultural factors in some groups, particularly in the immigration generation, that lead parents to put a lot of pressure on their kids to succeed, but it's very hard to quantify and usually falls apart under closer inspection. The Tiger mom stereotype is just that, and the longer Asians (and Jews, the other so-called high-achieving group) stay in America, the more their family dynamics become the American norm.

I realize that this is a complimentary stereotype and not a nasty one, but it's wrong nevertheless.

I joke about "high-achieving Asians" since that's the culture most familiar to me, but a mentor (whose parents are Armenian) likes to remind me that it's most immigrant families that are like this. Our parents came here at a disadvantage, so they taught their children they had to be the best to be successful.

And yes, even though Asians being the "model minority" is not a directly negative stereotype, it does a disservice to those who aren't as high-achieving as their peers. Including yours truly. It took me a while to discover that I didn't have to be book-smart to be successful and feel fulfilled. Depression is pretty common among my peers...

 

[PRlady]

Look, Michelle Kwan's parents were Chinese immigrants and, I think, Mirai's are first-generation from Japan. Maybe in their individual cases the pressure was on. Nathan Chen's family are immigrants, too.

But for every hardworking, high-achieving Asian there's someone who's not who's just as much so. Are Med's parents immigrants or Asians? Bradie Tennell came back from two years of invisibility and injury to win Nationals, and she looks pretty white to me. Evan Lysacek's work ethic was famous and to my mind outstripped his natural talent.

In other words, Asians' "instinctive drive" is matched by plenty of non-Asians working their butts off in skating.