RIP Cecil

Cachoo

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I keep checking newsfeeds about the cubs and so far the news is good. It would be wonderful if they survive this.
If Palmer had an ounce of integrity he would volunteer to return to Zimbabwe and cooperate. Somehow I don't think this will happen.
 

aftershocks

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We should all care about the way so many species are endangered, and the cruelty humans practice against so many animals. Its a terrible and despicable thing about the killing of the African Lion, Cecil, and it highlights a need for us to wake-up and to care about where humankind and our planet is headed. So many species are endangered. I recently saw Kristin Davis on Tavis Smiley, promoting her new documentary, Gardeners of Eden (about the effort to stop illegal killing of elephants for ivory). Its appalling that the elephant population has decreased from 10 million to less than 300,000 in Africa, and the poaching continues.

https://www.sheldrickwildlifetrust.org/

http://www.pbs.org/wnet/tavissmiley/interviews/actressproducer-kristin-davis/

http://deadline.com/2015/05/kristin-davis-gardeners-of-eden-documentary-pivot-tv-1201431180/

Trophy hunting should be outlawed, and humankind should wake up before its too late. In terms of dire changes happening to our environment, it's already too late.
 

rfisher

Let the skating begin
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74,036
Is there any chance a zoo or rescue preserve could collect the cubs?

It doesn't really seem to be "leaving it to nature" if humans killed both Cecil and Jericho?
Absolutely not. Besides, it seems the death of the other male is premature and likely a response to the hysteria over the first male. But, the truth is, this male will likely be either killed or ousted by a new set of males. A single male won't hold on to a pride. But, that's the way nature works.
 

Skittl1321

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But, that's the way nature works.

Nature doesn't work by having a game hunter come in to kill an alpha. Anything that happens in this pack right now is happening because of humans. If lions had killed Cecil, then his cubs, that's how nature works. But when the cubs die- that is direct result of human intervention. (Whether Jericho is alive or not. If Jericho is alive they might have a chance to grow a bit. But if humans killed him too, they may as well kill the cubs)
 

rfisher

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74,036
Nature doesn't work by having a game hunter come in to kill an alpha. Anything that happens in this pack right now is happening because of humans. If lions had killed Cecil, then his cubs, that's how nature works. But when the cubs die- that is direct result of human intervention. (Whether Jericho is alive or not. If Jericho is alive they might have a chance to grow a bit. But if humans killed him too, they may as well kill the cubs)
Then they'll die. Zoos would be worse. Lion's are neutered and become neurotic because they can't be lions. They cannot survive without their mothers or learn to hunt in any type of reserve. New males kill the cubs in order to assure the females come into heat and their genes are perpetrated. Cecil and his buddy killed any cubs when they took over the pride. They'll live or they'll die, but more human interference is not the answer. Every wildlife biologist knows and understands this and none would interfere.
 

MacMadame

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As I said in my post, the message is in the tweet itself. If African-Americans perceive there is an imbalance, it's their perception that matters, not the news coverage we get in Canada.
That same person wrote an article where she included that tweet and explained where she was coming from. One of the things she said that stood out to me was: "Avoid creating a hierarchy of human suffering as if compassion were a finite resource."

It is possible to be outraged over many things and to act on that outrage and the author states that. But IMO different problems require different solutions and will get a different response. (And I've signed way more petitions to bring justice to people of color mistreated by the police this year than I have about Cecil. And I signed all the Cecil ones.)

IMO, the difference in response is because we are not comparing apples and oranges. It's not as simple as "humans love animals more than other humans." Because no one rioted for Cecil. So it's not like the entire nation is immune or uninterested in our racial problems. We are interested enough to have riots and protests and articles and blog posts and tv news items on the issue. But the problem is complex. We don't even agree on what it is. And even on the points where there is general agreement on the problem, there isn't agreement on the solution.

But the Cecil situation is pretty straightforward. He was poached. Poaching is illegal. He can get justice by having his killer stand trial. So there is wide spread agreement on the problem and on the solution. When a situation is straightforward like that, more people are going to talk about it. There are plenty of people here who would never post in PI about the racial situation in the US because they don't feel like they can be articulate or that whatever they post will be ripped apart. But lots of people feel comfortable saying that Cecil was magnificent and his poacher should be brought to justice.

To me that says more about the nature of the internet than it does about what people care about.
 

I Luv Bulldogs

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I hope you realize how entitled you sound. Plenty of people aren't in a field where they can just find another job.

Yes, but we aren't talking about small town USA where there's only one dentist. I personally would not work for a person I find so morally repugnant.
 

Artemis@BC

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That same person wrote an article where she included that tweet and explained where she was coming from. One of the things she said that stood out to me was: "Avoid creating a hierarchy of human suffering as if compassion were a finite resource."

It is possible to be outraged over many things and to act on that outrage and the author states that. But IMO different problems require different solutions and will get a different response. (And I've signed way more petitions to bring justice to people of color mistreated by the police this year than I have about Cecil. And I signed all the Cecil ones.)

Thank you for mentioning that article -- Roxane Gay is one of my favourite essayists. I don't always agree with what she has to say (tho in this case I absolutely do), but she always makes me think.
 

Vash01

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Then they'll die. Zoos would be worse. Lion's are neutered and become neurotic because they can't be lions. They cannot survive without their mothers or learn to hunt in any type of reserve. New males kill the cubs in order to assure the females come into heat and their genes are perpetrated. Cecil and his buddy killed any cubs when they took over the pride. They'll live or they'll die, but more human interference is not the answer. Every wildlife biologist knows and understands this and none would interfere.

Animals in zoo are not neutered as a rule. If they are brought in to reproduce, they are not neutered. The cubs will be safe in a zoo or a conservatory, instead of falling prey to bigger lions and illegal hunters. These cubs didn't become orphans naturally but because a human wanted a trophy on his wall. This human interference with nature is creating an imbalance. So I see nothing wrong in saving these cubs.
 

Vash01

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Just watched the segment on illegal global trade of exotic animals that generates billions of dollars. The displays of animal heads, horns, skins were shocking and repulsive. The world needs to come together to make laws and punish these poachers and hunters or soon these animals will become extinct.

On a positive note, Jericho is alive, so for now Cecil's cubs are being looked after.
 

Cachoo

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Thank you for mentioning that article -- Roxane Gay is one of my favourite essayists. I don't always agree with what she has to say (tho in this case I absolutely do), but she always makes me think.
I think I'm about to get one of her books today in the library. I believe that is an author on my request list. I LOVE that Cecil's death seems to have provided this touchstone where like people who are sick of this sort of killing are speaking out. Hopefully others are listening.
 

rfisher

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Wouldn't he enter into an alliance with another male, if at all possible?


I love that title!
Not typically unless they are related. It's no advantage for him to have an unrelated male to breed with the females. What typically happens is subadult males of similar age are either killed by the adult male or they leave. Cecil would have killed his own male cubs. Typically two siblings will form an alliance and either try to take over from the old male (they'd either kill him or drive him away and he'd starve to death) or try to start their own pride with stray females. If the pride becomes too large to support the females, some of them will be driven off. They'll form a new pride. All that depends on the territory and food supply. Actually, this is evolutionary healthy for the population as it reduces inbreeding. The young males would have no problems mating with thier mothers or sisters and focing them to leave keeps the gene pool at a healthy level. This is one of the issues facing cheetahs. There had been so much inbreeding in the wild population, they are on the verge of genetic extinction. But, the biggest problem facing most animals is not hunting, but lack of territory due to encroachment by humans.

And VAsh you are wrong about neutering lions. There are too many in zoos already. Most will not take them and they are all either on birth control or neutered to prevent inbreeding. Cubs cannot survive without their mothers and they would have to be hand raised which would be the same as putting a bullet in thier heads. Some of you are thinking with your emotions and anthropomorphizing the animals rather than considering the population as a whole.
 

rvi5

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According to WILDCRU (the research group who had been studying Cecil), 42% of coalitions are formed by unrelated Lions.

At least now the park has another famous Lion, more widely known in the world than Cecil had been in the past...Jericho. Maybe future hunters in the area will think twice before shooting any Lion. It would be harder to use the "I didn't know it was famous" excuse.
 

Cachoo

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Is it Bad Feminist? That's her collection from 2014.
It is! NBC News just showed the official in Zimbabwe that said all bow hunting is now forbidden. I hope it stays forbidden. At least it is a start.
( About BF: Caitlin Moran has some funny, meaningful books she loves and I'm starting on her list which includes BF.)
 

MacMadame

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According to that article, Jericho and Cecil were not related. So I think Jericho could form an alliance again. It depends on what other lions are available -- how old they are, if they are related to each other, how they feel about him, etc. Or he could move off to a different part of the park and start his own pride with his and Cecil's wives and children. Or he could be killed along with his associates/relatives.

I don't think a wildlife preserve is 100% natural so I find it interesting what behaviors stay and what ones animals adapt and change.
 

rvi5

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According to this article, Palmer was boasting to a young barmaid about his kill. He claimed to have broken a record. It seems feasible he asked the guide for the largest Lion possible. Being well known at the park, Cecil could have been targeted for his size. If so, the guide and possibly Palmer knew exactly what they were doing.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...f-its-corpse-to-try-and-impress-waitress.html

Whether Palmer knew about Cecil before or not, he showed no remorse after discovering Cecil was collared. Otherwise he wouldn't have posed smiling in the photos, skinned and beheaded Cecil after, or boasted about the kill to impress a young woman.
 
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Meoima

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In this article, Palmer was boasting to a young barmaid about his kill. He claimed to have broken a record. It seems feasible he asked the guide for the largest Lion possible. Being well known at the park, Cecil could have been targeted for his size. If so, the guide and possibly Palmer knew exactly what they were doing.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...f-its-corpse-to-try-and-impress-waitress.html

Whether Palmer knew about Cecil before or not, he showed no remorse after discovering Cecil was collared. Otherwise he wouldn't have posed smiling in the photos, skinned and beheaded Cecil after, or boasted about the kill to impress a young woman.
I have said that I have no shame to see him ending up with the same fate as the animals he has killed.
 

Japanfan

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Whether Palmer knew about Cecil before or not, he showed no remorse after discovering Cecil was collared. Otherwise he wouldn't have posed smiling in the photos, skinned and beheaded Cecil after, or boasted about the kill to impress a young woman.

It's the lack of remorse in general that's disturbing, not the lack of remorse for Cecil in particular. Cecil's fame largely contributed to the story getting out and the huge response to it, but Palmer's attitude and behaviour would be no less appalling if the lion was not famous. And this just highlights what's wrong with Palmer's response about not knowing that he killed a famous lion. It indicates that what did would have been just fine with any other lion, in his viewpoint.
 

Meoima

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It's the lack of remorse in general that's disturbing, not the lack of remorse for Cecil in particular. Cecil's fame largely contributed to the story getting out and the huge response to it, but Palmer's attitude and behaviour would be no less appalling if the lion was not famous. And this just highlights what's wrong with Palmer's response about not knowing that he killed a famous lion. It indicates that what did would have been just fine with any other lion, in his viewpoint.
When they hunt and kill animals for fun in the name of sport, I don't expect any remorse from them. In this case Palmer the bastard assumed people got angry because the lion was famous and I am sure it made him feel more powerful because he had killed a famous creature while in fact he is a bastard, a coward, a disgusting human being.

My friend is working at an Asian animal sanctuary, most rescued bears there are reported to be bile bears. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bile_bear
Most of them have been traumatized, some lost one or two limbs (because the captors cut their limbs off) as in Asian's traditional belief, bear limbs are good medicine for health.

How barbaric is that, I feel disgusted at people who have done this for innocent wild life.
 

rvi5

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When they hunt and kill animals for fun in the name of sport, I don't expect any remorse from them.

Yes, trophy/sport hunters are not remorseful for killing in general. Otherwise they wouldn't be out there doing it. The hunter/guide claimed they were devastated when the the collar was discovered after killing Cecil (as they demonstrated by the photos and their actions afterward :rolleyes:). If Palmer is as egotistical as some reports indicate, I am sure he considers himself completely innocent. In his mind, he likely sees himself as the "victim"... of deceitful guides (assuming he wasn't in on it), and tree hugger types around the world. Would it be too much to hope these events will leave such a bitter taste, it will soil any fun he gets from hunting in the future? Maybe he will dismantle his shrine?

P.S. If some people claim Figure Skating is not a sport, how does this qualify?
 
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Cachoo

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Palmer has hired a PR firm ("It wasn't my fault.") I did see on one of those tabloid tv shows that one of the firms he contacted turned him down because of the owner's disgust with Palmer's actions. It sounds like he will fight tooth and nail not to return to Zimbabwe. I hope I'm wrong.
 

orbitz

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The current issue of Time magazine on the news stand has an article on taxidermy. It has a picture of this hunter and his wife sitting in their gigantic room completely full of huge mounted animal heads on the walls and fully stuffed animals killed from his hunts. Ugh, why would anyone want to have a room like that.


Another American doctor accused of illegally killing a lion:

http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world...american-of-illegally-hunting-lion/ar-BBlltMT
 

Meoima

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The current issue of Time magazine on the news stand has an article on taxidermy. It has a picture of this hunter and his wife sitting in their gigantic room completely full of huge mounted animal heads on the walls and fully stuffed animals killed from his hunts. Ugh, why would anyone want to have a room like that.
Another American doctor accused of illegally killing a lion:
http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world...american-of-illegally-hunting-lion/ar-BBlltMT
Oh God: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...iches-water-buffalo-accused-killing-lion.html

Doctor again. American doctors are in huge stress constantly and they decide that killing wild lives is a way to keep themselves from killing their patients? Sorry I am just being skeptical.
 

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