Qualifying (singles) for U.S. Nationals - what changes would you propose?

[Sylvia]

@Coco, would you like to copy over your post in the U.S. Women's thread to this one?

Now that the 3 U.S. Sectionals are over for another season, what changes would you like to see implemented to make the singles qualification process "fairer" at the Senior and/or Junior levels?

 

[Debbie S]

I said this last year and I'll say it again, I think for the singles events, they should go back to having 4 per section advance out of Sectionals. That would certainly contribute to the developmental goals of the event...less chance of promising skaters, esp those moving from Jr to Sr, missing the cut. Sure, they can keep working and hopefully make Nats the following year, but for many families, the cost of continuing may outweigh the potential benefit of qualifying in the future.

I don't think having a larger pool in a preliminary round makes sense financially, both for the skaters/families as well as USFS.

I don't think we can ever get a perfect system. Even when 4 skaters qualified, there were still unbalanced sections and good skaters would miss the cut. But I think having additional skaters from Sectionals would lessen that chance.

Another option is to give an automatic qualification to skaters earning above a certain score internationally in the fall, maybe in place of the 3 assignments bye for skaters outside the top 5 from the previous year.

 

[Rukia]

I agree with advancing 4. That's all the medalists, and I think it's rough to know you got a medal but didn't qualify for nationals. I understand they don't want really long events, but idk I just think we could use more skaters getting nats places.

 

[Coco]

Another way to allow for more qualifiers to get to Nationals would be... a preliminary round at Nationals.

Prelims could be about 2-3 days before the SP/RD event for that discipline. They would be held in the small arena and consist of a FS/FD only.

After this preliminary round, the top X finishers would advance to the SP/RD.

X = the number of competitors in 3 warmup groups minus the number of skaters with byes directly to the SP.

The byes given to Nationals could be tiered, with some byes granting entry to the preliminary round and some granting entry to the SP/RD.

This preliminary round would allow for more skaters to get to Nationals without increasing the length of the SP/RD and FS/FD rounds

I would go a step further and winnow the field to 2 warmup groups after the sp, but that is just me

I'm sure this is impractical for many reasons, but I think it would be fun.

 

[Karen-W]

Well, I don't understand why it's the Top 5 from the previous Nationals who get an automatic bye when there are only 4 podium places, so my first thing would be to reduce the prev Nats auto byes to just the Top 4.

Either those skaters/teams will demonstrate they merit a bye for int'l assignments the following season or they won't.

 

[crzesk8dad]

Go back to 24 skaters at Nationals, send the top four from each section and then fill up with "at large". Maybe not so many byes, if possible.

It's terrible that only one senior woman woman will go from the "at large" category.

 

[her grace]

Yeah, I don’t see how you go back to top 4 per section without expanding the field.

I do think the USFS made a few unusual choices on the women’s side that resulted in extra byes. For example, if they hadn’t pulled Kalin from her JGP, she wouldn’t have been reassigned to the junior B that got her a travel bye. And everyone knows Ziegler’s unusual circumstances. Frankly, the first alternate potentially has grounds to sue USFS (or take them to CAS) because they didn’t follow their own rules, but that would probably make her career dead in the water.

 

[Jarrett]

I really think the current rules are fine. Disappointed for Alexa not making it (so far) this year but that is kind of the way it goes. There are enough skaters at Nationals at current rates. Our fields aren't that deep and honestly have never been to require more. I guess you could as a cutoff for the long like Japanese nationals but that is a lot of expense for some families travel for just a short.

 

[Karen-W]

If we went back to Top 4 per Section, that would be 12 right there, plus Top 4 from Nats = 16 + 2 additional byes = 18 we're currently at. I don't know how, without increasing the # of skaters invited to Nats, that would even work with Sectionals currently scheduled during the middle of the GP season.

On the Women's side -
Glenn, J Lee, Levito, Everhardt - 2024 Nats Top 4 Byes

2 add'l Byes - who do you choose from the following women who wound up with 2 GPs? Liu, Tennell, Thorngren, Lin-Gracey (obviously Kalin would be competing at Pac Coasts with no Jr B Int'l to replace the JGP assignment that was shifted away from her at the last minute) - and, let's not forget Ziegler...

Sectionals -
Lin-Gracey - SkAm & SCI - she'd be competing at Mids, which is 4 weeks after her 2nd GP
Tennell - SkAm & NHK - she'd also be competing at Mids, 2 weeks after her 2nd GP

Thorngren - NHK & Finlandia - Bye as Easterns was the same week as her 2nd GP

So, of the two left - who do you make compete at Sectionals? Or do you add a 19th spot to the Nats field?
Liu - SCI & NHK - Bye as Pac Coasts was the week after her 2nd GP
Ziegler - SCI & CoC - Bye as Easterns was the week before her 2nd GP (had she not withdrawn)

Soooooo - how would this have played out?

Pac Coasts - Kalin (presuming she matched her NQS score - she WD from Tallinn Trophy), Zhang, Andrews, Katie Shen (158.74)
Easterns - Cui, Evans, Katie Turcotte (136.85), Audrey Tanaka (134.09)
Mids - Tennell (presuming she matched her SkAm score), Lin-Gracey (presuming she matched her SkAm score), Bonillo, Higase-Chen

That still leaves Gasparotto & Gewalt on the outside looking in, PLUS it drops Hilmer out too.

The suggestion of making it the Top 4 from Sectionals, with the current cap of 18 women means that some "deserving" skaters are being left home. I'm not sure it's THAT much of a big deal that Seo gets a trip to Nats this year that she earned based on her Top 5 at Nats last year versus Gasparotto or Gewalt not going.

It is really amazing to me, though, that there is significantly LESS angsting over the Men's side and who did/did not qualify. But, just for the sake of this exercise, let's see what it would look like for the Men -

Malinin, Brown, Pulkinen, Torgashev - 2024 Nats Top 4 Byes
Sanchez - JGPF qualifier - automatic Bye
1 add'l Bye - is one even necessary? Broussard, Naumov & Hiwatashi each had 1 GP assignment and plenty of time between those assignments and their respective Sectionals (Broussard - SkAm - 4 weeks before Pac Coasts; Naumov - SkAm - 4 weeks before Easterns; Hiwatashi - NHK - 2 weeks before Mids); Ma - no GPs, could have qualified through Easterns; Martynov - who knows why he was even given a bye - the USFS made Hiwatashi come back to the US to qualify through Sectionals, so I really don't understand why he was given a 3rd international during Nov instead of coming back to the US to qualify through Sectionals. Just tell the entire Men's field that the Top 4 from each Section go through + the Next Highest Score nationally.

How would that have looked?
Pac Coasts - Endo, Kovar, Kapeikis, Xie
Easterns - Savary, Ma (presuming he matched his Tallinn Trophy score), Kazanecki, Naumov (presuming he matched his Warsaw Cup score)
Mids - Hiwatashi, Strommer, Klein, Martynov (presuming he matched his Tallinn Trophy score)
Next Highest NQS Score - Mindra (P5)

On the Men's side - the field would have wound up exactly the same. On the Women's side - the really questionable Byes are for Seo (whose 147.70 this week at Warsaw Cup wouldn't have gotten her within spitting distance, even with domestic inflation, of getting out of Mids) and Ziegler - who may or may not compete at Nats depending on how her recovery is going. Going with a structure that take the Top 4 from Sectionals would have given us an, arguably, lesser field, than the one we have.

USFS isn't going to increase the field size at Nats - there are sound economic reasons why it's not feasible - unless the armchair quarterbacks here want to pay higher ticket prices to pay for the additional arena & rink rental time - oh, wait, nope, we'll all just decide it's cheaper & easier to stay home and watch on Peacock.

 

[Coco]

Prelims!!

 

[her grace]

I think the men’s qualifications were pretty straightforward this year. There were some surprising results at the junior level, but I expect the bigger names who were left out will still be invited to Junior Cup in the summer. Most didn’t realistically have a chance at Junior worlds this year (Brooks could have been a dark horse contender) so time to regroup and try again next time like many other good skaters from the past, e.g., Abbott and Gold.

Someone brought up in the other thread the difficulty of moving up from junior to senior with fewer non-bye spots available. I wonder if USFS would consider letting the top 2 juniors at nationals then skate up in the senior division, similar to what Japan does although inviting fewer athletes. It might convince some athletes to stay junior where it’s easier to qualify. Or they could give a bye to the junior champ for the following year in senior—but a lot can change in a year for juniors—so I’m not really in favor of that.

 

[Karen-W]

Prelims!!

And then have the additional expense for those skaters of traveling to the Nats location several days in advance and not knowing if they're going to actually step foot on the ice for the SP... Look how the return of the Qualifying Rounds structure at Worlds went over with the national federations once they had a chance to really study it, especially the costs involved for any future host federations. Oh, that's right, it went the way of the dodo bird before it was even implemented this season.

Honestly, I liked it best the season the USFS basically used Sectionals to give the skaters their scores and took the highest scorers, nationwide, irrespective of any sectional quotas. If we did that and the 7 spots that weren't filled with byes were awarded that way we'd have the following skaters going to Nats:

Zhang P1 190.19
Bonillo M1 177.29
Higase-Chen M2 173.35
Hilmer M3 171.67
Gasparatto M4 170.17
Gewalt M5 169.96
Andrews P2 167.71

Byes -
Glenn - Midwestern
J Lee - Pac Coast
Levito - Eastern
Everhardt - Eastern
Seo - Midwestern
Thorngren - Eastern
Liu - Pac Coast
Tennell - Midwestern
Lin-Gracey - Midwestern
Kalin - Pac Coast
Ziegler - Eastern

Eastern - 4
Midwestern - 9
Pacific Coast - 5

Alternates (only listing the skaters with scores 150+)
M Lee M6 - 160.19
Shen P3 - 158.74
Cui E1 - 157.76
Evans E2 - 156.01
Biederman M7 - 155.04
Warne-Jacobsen M8 - 152.81

Any way you slice it, right now, Mids is a stacked Section for the US women. Someone's getting left home. Cui & Evans or Gasparotto & Gewalt. Take your pick.

 

[Debbie S]

FYI, Bradie is Eastern this year (SCNY).

The season where they took top scores from qual comps was 2021/2022, when Covid made it difficult to plan/host the usual qualifying series. IIRC, skaters were allowed to compete in up to 2 of the Nats qual events, regardless of Section (so they could stay close to where they trained if they didn't train in their home Section), but I believe their scores were still ranked by Section and the top 2 qualified plus next highest scores to get to a total of 18 when the byes were added in.

 

[ice coverage]

... It is really amazing to me, though, that there is significantly LESS angsting over the Men's side and who did/did not qualify. ...

For me, this season had two big differences in Nats qualification for Senior Men vs. Senior Women:
(1) The byes for Senior Men were in accordance with the rules published by USFS.
(2) This season, Senior Men have four spots for those with "Next National Best Score," as opposed to Senior Women having only one.

And as things turned out at sectionals this season:
None of the Senior Men who did not qualify for Nats had a higher score than someone who did qualify.

 

[Karen-W]

And as things turned out at sectionals this season: No one from Senior Men who did not qualify for Nats had a higher score than someone who did qualify.

Well, sure, but that would have happened even if it was a Sectionals Top 4 -

P1 - Zhang - 190.19
M1 - Bonillo - 177.29
M2 - Higase-Chen - 173.35
M3 - Hilmer - 171.67
M4 - Gasparotto - 170.17
M5 - Gewalt - 169.96
P2 - Andrews - 167.71
M6 - M Lee - 160.19
P3 - Shen - 158.74
E1 - Cui - 157.76
E2 - Evans - 156.01
M7 - Biederman - 155.04
M8 - Warne-Jacobsen - 152.81
P4 - Machida - 148.89
P5 - Budko - 141.73
M9 - Lockley - 137.38
E3 - Turcotte - 136.85
E4 - Tanaka - 134.09

I daresay, there'd be a lot more grousing and grumbling if there were 6 women with higher scores left home rather than the 3 who didn't book tickets to Nats.

Also, based on what the USFS relayed to the Jr Pairs & Jr Dance teams when they informed them that they're all going to Nats, it's pretty clear that the USFS' Board of Directors can do whatever they want with regard to bypassing their own written rules for Byes with a simple majority vote. We may not like it, but they chose to give Ziegler a bye and I'm pretty sure they are safe from any potential lawsuit from a pissed off skater who is sitting at home in January instead of in Wichita.

 

[ice coverage]

... Also, based on what the USFS relayed to the Jr Pairs & Jr Dance teams when they informed them that they're all going to Nats, it's pretty clear that the USFS' Board of Directors can do whatever they want with regard to bypassing their own written rules for Byes with a simple majority vote. We may not like it, but they chose to give Ziegler a bye ...

Well ... the numbers for Junior Pairs and Junior Dance that in the end are in effect are the numbers written in 2024-25 USFS Rulebook. Per Rules 2502 and 2503 in the rulebook, the requirement for junior pairs/dancers without a bye to qualify for Nats: "Placing in the top 12 in junior at the U.S. Pairs Final" or U.S. Ice Dance Final.
The BOD vote in July 2024 approved exceptions to Rules 2502 and 2503 that included changing the junior numbers for 2024-25 season to top 8 junior pairs at U.S. Pairs Final and top 10 junior teams at U.S. Ice Dance Final; but BOD now has voided the changes to junior numbers, and what was in the rulebook all along is in effect.

Nothing has come to light (at least so far???) that indicates that BOD approved any exception to Rule 2513 in 2024-25 rulebook, which says: "No medical byes will be granted to the U.S. Figure Skating Championships."

(I have not taken any position on if/how rules for advancement from sectionals should change.
In my previous post, I was just comparing my differing reactions to what happened with Senior Men vs. Senior Women this season.

ETA:​

I had added my "Sad" emoji to crzesk8dad's post in response to his last sentence:
" It's terrible that only one senior woman woman will go from the "at large" category. ")​

 

[AngieNikodinovLove (ANL)]

I say we apply the method of KISS

We’re going back to 24 skaters and we determine those 24 by taking everyone’s competitions from January 1 of this year through December 1 of this year
and averaging them out… top 24 get to come. Music selections shall be approved by ANL

there you go folks.

USFSA cannot say they can’t do 24 because of funding with all the money they have saved on kiss and cry.