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[MacMadame]

What will happen to all of the unauthorized videos of ice skating, including the songs, that will inevitably pop up on YouTube?

Well, we know the answer to that one. They get copyright-claimed and taken down. A lot of this stuff isn't all that complicated.

To me, more than blaming K/F for any of this, it seems the fault is on NBC who may have gotten lazy and finally called out.

ETA the first article says that K/F are more at fault and that is my understanding of how it works.

Who Was in the Wrong?​

In this case, it appears that the ice skating pair and their management team were more at fault than NBC. In a sense, NBC was only reporting on what happened on the ice.

Broadcasting a performance at the Olympics is news and you can broadcast news without getting a license for any music that is part of the ambient sound. Now there are some parts of broadcasting at the Olympics that muddy the waters (is the music really ambient sound if they pipe it directly from the rink sound system into the broadcast instead of just recording it from the air, for example) but it's not really that complicated. You have to get permission to skate to the music you skate to.

 

[DreamSkates]

It's irrelevant whether or not there are lyrics. A lot of Classical music is in the public domain but any particular recorded performance is still copyrighted.

True. So does this mean there is no recorded music skaters can use freely unless they record it themselves (Starr Andrews) or pay someone for a special recording of a song, as a few have done?

 

[tony]

ETA the first article says that K/F are more at fault and that is my understanding of how it works.


Broadcasting a performance at the Olympics is news and you can broadcast news without getting a license for any music that is part of the ambient sound. Now there are some parts of broadcasting at the Olympics that muddy the waters (is the music really ambient sound if they pipe it directly from the rink sound system into the broadcast instead of just recording it from the air, for example) but it's not really that complicated. You have to get permission to skate to the music you skate to.

A quick Google search for more on figure skating music rights brings me to a second lawyer's interpretation:

Skating Over Copyright Law | RPJ Law

After the Sochi Winter Olympic Games in 2014, the International Skating Union changed its rules in figure skating competitions to allow figure skaters to skate to music with lyrics to appeal to younger audiences who tune in to watch the Olympics

rpjlaw.com

So what exactly is the protocol?

In order to include copyrighted songs in a television show or a movie, a synchronization license or “sync” license is needed whenever music is synched with video footage. However, luckily for NBC, the Olympics is considered a live event which means that no sync licenses were required and instead figure skating routines are covered by what is known as a “performance right” (i.e., permission to perform or broadcast a piece of music in a public, commercial setting). These same rights apply even though the event’s broadcast was delayed until primetime. While there is no sync license required, the broadcaster is still responsible for obtaining a blanket license that grants them public performance rights from “performing rights organizations,” or PROs. The bottom line is, if a figure skater is performing to Elton John, rest assured that NBC has taken care of clearing this music.

FWIW I've worked with international-level skaters throughout the last 15+ years in helping select pieces of music and I even edited a few pieces in the mid-2000's, and never once did I hear anything about any skaters themselves having to seek permission from said artists to skate to the music. ETA here- I do remember the time Kevin Reynolds had to dump his long program a week or two before NHK because Joe Hisaishi's team didn't want the piece edited in any way, or something to that extent. But this situation with K/F is really just about using the piece itself-- one that had already been used before in international competition by a different pairs team.

How Music Copyrights Work in Figure Skating - McGraw-Hill Introduction to Business

For nearly a week, millions of people around the world have been tuning into the Winter Olympics broadcasting from Pyeongchang, South Korea. Like seemingly every edition of the games, figure skating has been one of the most watched events as stars like Adam Rippon and Mirai Nagasu take to the...

introbiz.tv

Which uses this NYTimes article as their reference, but behind a paywall for me:

Beyoncé Songs Come to the Olympics. But Who Pays for the Rights? (Published 2018)

Songs with lyrics are permitted at the Winter Games in Pyeongchang for the first time. And because the Games are considered a “live event,” no special permission is required.

www.nytimes.com

Every other source I've come across says the rinks pay a blanket fee, the network pays a fee, but nothing about the skaters being held directly responsible. I'd like to see what sources led you to the conclusion that the fault goes to the skaters.

If they were told that everything was covered on whatever fees were already paid and/or that others would take care of they problem, then I would see why K/F weren't involved in replying.

 

[BlueRidge]

Thanks for all the information @tony.

I think it comes down to the fact that for a miniscule audience its not worth NBC/Peacock bothering with any particular trouble to have replays. If it were they'd take care of it. Blaming K&F is really peevish. The problem is there aren't enough of us who want to watch.

The idea we can just get all our streams internationally is also a bit lacking in perspective. Figure skating needs revenue and television brings revenue including NBC. NBC probably only cares about figure skating because it may increase the value of their Olympic broadcasting to build an audience but it still matters to figure skating to have that revenue.

 

[Frau Muller]

I figure that if I can at least watch the livestreams, and do it from my home, then I’m still way ahead of when my mom & I used to travel just to see the competitions. So I’ll continue to watch all that I can for free (via Comcast), knowing that I’ll just have that one time to watch.
p.s. Sure beats dealing with parking!

 

[clairecloutier]

I think it comes down to the fact that for a miniscule audience its not worth NBC/Peacock bothering with any particular trouble to have replays. If it were they'd take care of it. Blaming K&F is really peevish. The problem is there aren't enough of us who want to watch.

And there will be even fewer who want to watch if replays are not available. I can say that my mom, who is a casual fan and has Peacock, will watch probably nothing this year except for Nationals and maybe some of Skate America/Skate Canada/4CCs. Because nothing else is in her time zone and, while she likes skating, she is not about to reschedule her life around it.

Figure skating once reached a wider audience through broadcast TV. With each subsequent move down in accessibility--from broadcast to cable, from cable to streaming, from on-demand to live only, they just lose more viewers.

 

[BlueRidge]

And there will be even fewer who want to watch if replays are not available.

ITA it doesn't help build audience to take these away. Ultimately I think that is why its on USFSA to advocate for having them. Its obviously not pinging NBC's radar otherwise.

 

[VALuvsMKwan]

So does anyone here have any kind of access or clout with the higher-ups at USFS? Such a person or persons might use such contacts to inquire as to very specifically why that organization seems to be doing nothing (or at least having no impact) on the streaming replay disappearance.

 

[BittyBug]

Every other source I've come across says the rinks pay a blanket fee, the network pays a fee, but nothing about the skaters being held directly responsible. I'd like to see what sources led you to the conclusion that the fault goes to the skaters.

It was a direct quote from the blog you posted earlier.

In this case, it appears that the ice skating pair and their management team were more at fault than NBC. In a sense, NBC was only reporting on what happened on the ice.

 

[Karen-W]

It was a direct quote from the blog you posted earlier.

I viewed that sentence as an opinion, rather than a statement of actual fact and culpability. It demonstrates one interpretation of the law, while others, as @tony has shown, have a different interpretation of the law and whether or not the skaters themselves bear any responsibility.

 

[BittyBug]

I viewed that sentence as an opinion, rather than a statement of actual fact and culpability. It demonstrates one interpretation of the law, while others, as @tony has shown, have a different interpretation of the law and whether or not the skaters themselves bear any responsibility.

Yes, they're all just opinions. But here are the facts that we know:

K&F:
Were notified after the Olympics that they didn't have rights to the music (we know this to be a fact because they were named in the lawsuit)
Chose to continue skating to the music nonetheless at Worlds (opinion - mine - chutzpah!)

Peacock:
Pulled (or perhaps never posted) the replay of Olympics pairs immediately after the lawsuit was made public
The rest of the on demand Olympic skating content got pulled shortly afterwards
Pulled all other skating on demand content shortly thereafter
Has stopped offering skating on demand

BittyBug:
Still "peevishly" blames K&F for the cascade of events

 

[BlueRidge]

BittyBug:
Still "peevishly" blames K&F for the cascade of events

K&F are responsible for being included in a law suit, but it wasn't they who had any responsibility for the recordings issue.

To focus on K&F is kind of putting on blinders and refusing to see the larger issues, which is what we need to see to understand why we are getting such poor figure skating coverage. K&F can't fix the situation by any action they can take. And fixing it is what we need. NBC/Peacock is declining to host the replays and USFSA is not doing enough to get them to change that. To me, those are the issues, as well as the larger one that there just isn't enough of an audience for the replays to get NBC/Peacock's attention.

 

[once_upon]

Skating has never had a big enough audience for full event broadcasting, all events. We aren't likely to see full competition programming other than ones provided by ISU - because there is not a large enough audience to demand it. Even Olympics- the casual fan only want to see the US skaters and only if they have a chance to medal.

Some of my former work friends - when USA network carried the GP events - couldn't understand why they had to watch the same programs over and over and over again. Gymnastics competitions the same. It's boring, you know what they are going to do everytime, it's boring - they said

Other sports, like football, hockey, soccer (football), golf, baseball, formula 1, track and field, etc. There is enough of a change each game/comp that will grab interest of even the most casual viewer. Networks, streaming services are willing to invest because the viewership can grow.

Skating hasn't grown viewership. It isn't because there is less exposure. It isn't because there are or are not vocals. It isn't because a scoring system is this or that. It's because nothing is grabbing the interest of the casual fan. No amount of exposure is going to change the perception of sameness. Skating doesn't have the longevity or potential for big salaries, it's not there.

We (FSU) get that it is not the same competition to competition. We like that elements are published so we can watch for edges or spins or SS. It's what we understand. There just isn't at least in the US a demand to see anyone but the top 6 skaters.

I can't think of a single CASUAL skating fan who will sit for 3 or 4 hours to watch 30 women's programs, especially if 75% of those programs result in more time down on the ice with falls. If I'm a Sports Programing executive - that's 3 hours of programming that can be used for a bigger bang for a buck. I'd be looking at viewship numbers but most important ad dollars, after all I want to keep my job.

I think some of us are so angry about the lack of programming, we want something or someone to blame. This controversy gives someone or something to blame.

I doubt that K/F just unilaterally said no. I bet they had lawyers from everywhere telling them what to do. Their lawyers, NBC lawyers. But some of you want a single cause to be the catalyst. There are many moving parts.

 

[BittyBug]

K&F are responsible for being included in a law suit, but it wasn't they who had any responsibility for the recordings issue.

The first opinion that Tony posted disputes this.

To focus on K&F is kind of putting on blinders and refusing to see the larger issues, which is what we need to see to understand why we are getting such poor figure skating coverage. K&F can't fix the situation by any action they can take. And fixing it is what we need. NBC/Peacock is declining to host the replays and USFSA is not doing enough to get them to change that. To me, those are the issues, as well as the larger one that there just isn't enough of an audience for the replays to get NBC/Peacock's attention.

I can be pissed at K&F while still being interested in finding a solution.

But some of you want a single cause to be the catalyst.

There is plenty of blame to go around here, but one thing is absolutely true: had K&F not used the music they did (and defiantly so when they used it at Worlds), the chain of events that led to on demand skating being pulled would not have been triggered.

 

[BlueRidge]

here is plenty of blame to go around here, but one thing is absolutely true: had K&F not used the music they did (and defiantly so when they used it at Worlds), the chain of events that led to on demand skating being pulled would not have been triggered.

We surmise this but don't have any actual proof of it. My thing is that if figure skating mattered to NBC/Peacock K&F's failing wouldn't have resulted in this. NBC could have dealt with possible future law suits in a different way but they took the easiest way out because we don't matter. That bothers me more than K&F triggering the chain of events. It seems to me our house was just teetering and something was going to come along and blow it down. If it hadn't been the K&F situation, it would have been something else. That's the problem.

 

[MacMadame]

Every other source I've come across says the rinks pay a blanket fee, the network pays a fee, but nothing about the skaters being held directly responsible. I'd like to see what sources led you to the conclusion that the fault goes to the skaters.

Because the ISU makes the skaters sign something that says they have the rights to skate to the music. K/F must have signed it and, in their case, it wasn't true.

Sure, the networks might CYA and do extra work to make sure they have the rights to play music by very famous artists. But are they going to check each and every skater's music for every event they broadcast? Enough of the time the skater doesn't even identify every single cut or identify the cuts they do mention with enough detail or accuracy for the network to do that anyway.

Now is this the way it should be? That's a different question. I think the skating community doesn't think about these things much because:

(a) they don't know much about copyright issues (and what they do know is probably at least partially wrong)
(b) for the vast majority of skaters, their programs aren't going to be broadcast to a wide audience so it doesn't matter
(c) 99.9% of the time, the rights to their music were covered by blanket fees that rinks, arenas, and (for the top skaters) the broadcasters paid

But these days, when artists aren't so dependent on record companies and are experimenting with new ways to distribute their music and with streaming services showing every single skater in the event, and fans putting their own clips up on public websites like YouTube, I think there are going to be more cases where the blanket fees don't cover everything and the artist finds out about it.

So they need to think about it now.

I viewed that sentence as an opinion, rather than a statement of actual fact and culpability. It demonstrates one interpretation of the law, while others, as @tony has shown, have a different interpretation of the law and whether or not the skaters themselves bear any responsibility.

When it comes to the law, it's all opinion. The law has a lot of gray areas.

To focus on K&F is kind of putting on blinders and refusing to see the larger issues, which is what we need to see to understand why we are getting such poor figure skating coverage. K&F can't fix the situation by any action they can take. And fixing it is what we need. NBC/Peacock is declining to host the replays and USFSA is not doing enough to get them to change that. To me, those are the issues, as well as the larger one that there just isn't enough of an audience for the replays to get NBC/Peacock's attention.

I see these as two different issues. Even if K/F's team blew off the group when first contacted and then K/F hadn't skated to that music at Worlds knowing full well they didn't have the music rights, skating coverage for the causal viewer and for those who don't have cable and/or Peacock still sucks.

It sucks even more now without replays though and I see that as on K/F's team for blowing off the issue when first contacted which led to the lawsuit and for K/F for skating to the music at Worlds when they knew full well they didn't have the rights to it. I don't blame them for skating to the music before they knew. I blame them for skating to it at Worlds when they knew. I see them as forcing the issue and causing NBC to panic and do the most risk-averse thing -- which I also blame NBC for as the reaction was OTT IMO but the catalyst was K/F

 

[A.H.Black]

I want to watch the 3 upcoming Sectionals (Senior/Junior events plus U.S. Pairs & Dance Finals) coming up next month so am keeping Peacock for now.

I also plan to keep it through Nationals.

 

[Karen-W]

I was contemplating this last evening and earlier today, and it occurs to me that perhaps we also need to be contacting the ISU. If I'm not mistaken, the USFS only deals with NBC for their own events (Nationals, SkAm, US Classic, Sectionals). The broadcast rights to the rest of the GP, Euros, 4CCs and Worlds are between NBC and the ISU. We have no idea what the ISU/NBC contract entails with regard to replays. At minimum, the ISU might remove the geo-block after a certain period of time from the content on the ISU YT channel if NBC refuses to provide on-demand replays within the US. I get it if NBC doesn't want to pay for the synchronization rights, but that doesn't mean the ISU hasn't addressed this already with their YT channel.

 

[Jammers]

So is Peacock streaming any of the Grand Prix season because i don't see anything for figure skating on there. And what about US Nationals?

 

[tony]

So is Peacock streaming any of the Grand Prix season because i don't see anything for figure skating on there. And what about US Nationals?

All of it, likely just live.

NBC SPORTS AND U.S. FIGURE SKATING ANNOUNCE 2022-23 SCHEDULE; PEACOCK TO STREAM EVERY EVENT LIVE - NBC Sports Pressbox

Season Kicks Off with Live Coverage of Skate America Friday, Oct. 21-Sunday, Oct. 23 Across NBC, USA Network, E! and Peacock COLORADO SPRINGS, Colo., and STAMFORD, Conn. (October 6, 2022) -- NBC Sports and U.S. Figure Skating announced today the schedule for the 2022-23 figure skating season...

nbcsportsgrouppressbox.com

 

[Frau Muller]

So is Peacock streaming any of the Grand Prix season because i don't see anything for figure skating on there. And what about US Nationals?

Yes, Jammers. I put it in post #5 of the NBC subscription channel, as the Peacock programs weren’t included in the original post-list. I also began a Peacock-related thread within Kiss n Cry’s Skate America 2022 sub forum…but it’s all here, at the bottom:

NBC SPORTS AND U.S. FIGURE SKATING ANNOUNCE 2022-23 SCHEDULE; PEACOCK TO STREAM EVERY EVENT LIVE - NBC Sports Pressbox

Season Kicks Off with Live Coverage of Skate America Friday, Oct. 21-Sunday, Oct. 23 Across NBC, USA Network, E! and Peacock COLORADO SPRINGS, Colo., and STAMFORD, Conn. (October 6, 2022) -- NBC Sports and U.S. Figure Skating announced today the schedule for the 2022-23 figure skating season...

nbcsportsgrouppressbox.com

Keep this for future Peacock livestreams. For those in the USA with time to watch livestreams in real time, this is it for you!

 

[DreamSkates]

But isn't this all assumption? Have we ever heard anything from Peacock/NBC or USFSA about the reason for no replays?

I'd just like to see some confirmation of some kind. Which we won't because they don't regard figure skating fans as of any consequence it seems. OTOH, figure skating--the USFSA and the ISU--do benefit from money from broadcasting rights. I don't think we as fans really want to see that go away, that wouldn't make things better.

We're just screwed but at least there are still ways to watch a lot of figure skating.

I think that’s the point - there are other ways to watch FS. I will try vpn and ISU streaming at some point.
Does ISU have replays or only live-streaming?

 

[Sylvia]

VPN info & advice thread for those who have unsubscribed from or don't plan to subscribe to Peacock:

VPN tips, advice, recommendations, etc.

Starting a new thread for tips/advice/recommendations re. virtual private networks (VPN) for disgruntled ex-Peacock subscribers: Has anyone used NordVPN? I could never get Opera to work, even when I selected a different country. A paid VPN is cheaper than Peacock. I canceled my subscription...

www.fsuniverse.net

I've also created a separate NBCUniversal viewing schedule thread here in TV Alerts for those who don't want to wade through this one :

NBCUniversal's 2022-23 Figure Skating Broadcast Schedule

USFS press release (Oct. 5, 2022): https://usfigureskatingfanzone.com/news/2022/10/6/nbc-sports-and-us-figure-skating-announce-2022-23-schedule.aspx Link to the schedule (NBC, USA, E! & Peacock): https://usfigureskatingfanzone.com/sports/2022/10/5/television-schedule.aspx All times Eastern...

www.fsuniverse.net

THIS thread is for all things complaints about/problems & grievances with Peacock!

 

[ChillSkate]

Since NBC is refusing to air figure skating replays on Peacock, USFS or ISU should work with NBC to have figure skating competitons broadcast on a cable channel so fans could DVR the competitons and watch them later. NBC has many cable channels - couldn't they just broadcast GPs at 3 am on E or Bravo or whatever channel is unpopular so figure skating fans could have an opportunity to record and replay it?

Otherwise, the inability to watch figure skating competitions on demand will absolutely cost US figure skating many fans (aside from watching sub-optimally on a computer via a foreign VPN on ISU Youtube, which most people will not bother to do). My mom is a figure skating fan and will watch any competition on her DVR but will not take the steps described above to watch on her laptop. Surely, USFS / ISU could work with NBC to come up with some other replay option if NBC is now refusing to have replays on Peacock.

 

[Jammers]

What i don't get is if Peacock is showing figure skating why do they not list it as one of the sports on their site like they used to? It would make it so much easier to follow.

 

[Flip Jump]

What i don't get is if Peacock is showing figure skating why do they not list it as one of the sports on their site like they used to? It would make it so much easier to follow.

I don’t know why they don’t have the icon skate on the site, but if you scroll down you can find all the times for Skate America including Fan Cam.

 

[LeafOnTheWind]

So which countries are best for the ISU stream on VPN?

 

[Amy L]

So which countries are best for the ISU stream on VPN?

I've used Israel before and I never had problems playing any of the videos.

 

[Lara]

The proximity to Canada (assuming it's still unblocked) might help, but most should be fine if you're using a paid service. You can use speedtest.net to check if there's any major difference between servers.

 

[LeafOnTheWind]

One more question since I've used Peacock in the past. Do I go to Skating ISU on YouTube or do they have a separate streaming channel for Senior Grand Prix like the Junior Grand Prix?