Pairs Discussion Thread 2019-20: “Two skating as one”

[oleada]

Looking at M/G's fp at Finlandia, I can understand the comparison to a younger T/M. But I still do not see any comparison to either D/R or S/M.

If you'd actually read my post, you'd see that I wasn't necessarily comparing the skating, but that they are both more technical teams (I disagree that D/R had good unison) that really succeeded by having high base value.

 

[aftershocks]

It doesn't matter @oleada. I just read in GSD from Tony Wheeler that Jacque Tiegs (@mysticchic) passed away yesterday. My eyes are full of tears right now.

 

[Mad for Skating]

It's kind of nuts ... In terms of numbers, it will be a bigger pairs event than Worlds.

I think this is a pretty clear indication that 5 pairs CS events isn't enough. 10 pairs CS events is too many, but 5 is not enough. Personally I'd increase the number of events to 7 next year. And make Autumn Classic the designated North American CS pairs event.

I think this is a great idea! 7 seems like the perfect number; if you want pairs to develop, you need to offer enough competitions for them to try. Plus, it's more exciting to watch. I also support either hosting no pairs event at US Classic or moving US Classic from Salt Lake City altogether. It's just not safe for the pairs.

It doesn't matter @oleada. I just read in GSD from Tony Wheeler that Jacque Tiegs (@mysticchic) passed away yesterday. My eyes are full of tears right now.

Oh no! I'm so sorry to hear that. I didn't interact with her much, but she always seemed very polite and interesting. RIP.

 

[Doggygirl]

It's kind of nuts ... In terms of numbers, it will be a bigger pairs event than Worlds.

I think this is a pretty clear indication that 5 pairs CS events isn't enough. 10 pairs CS events is too many, but 5 is not enough. Personally I'd increase the number of events to 7 next year. And make Autumn Classic the designated North American CS pairs event.

@clairecloutier FOR ISU PRESIDENT!!!!

 

[Mad for Skating]

@clairecloutier FOR ISU PRESIDENT!!!!

I will happily campaign for her! Let's get some signs and start the rally!

 

[aftershocks]

Oh no! I'm so sorry to hear that. I didn't interact with him much, but he always seemed very polite and interesting. RIP.

Jacque (pronounced 'Jackie') Tiegs was a female. She was a photographer who formerly worked on events for U.S. fed, if I'm not mistaken. I didn't get to know her too well. But after she'd contracted an illness a few years ago, we conversed on occasion, and I was in contact with her last year around this time, when she and Tony Wheeler were working on the Skate Talk Online broadcast. It was Jacque's final gift to skating fans. She will be greatly missed.

 

[aftershocks]

... I disagree that D/R had good unison...

That's fine if that's how you see it. But factually, D/R definitely did have wonderful unison on their sbs spins, despite not being the ideal physical match. They overcame the physical drawbacks through determination, personal compatibility, mutual goals, hard work, and a sympatico spiritual bond. Listen to their numerous interviews, video profiles (still available on Youtube), and as well review many of their competitive performances with accompanying commentary by analysts.

 

[Mad for Skating]

Jacque (pronounced 'Jackie') Tiegs was a female. She was a photographer who formerly worked on events for U.S. fed, if I'm not mistaken. I didn't get to know her too well. But after she'd contracted an illness a few years ago, we conversed on occasion, and I was in contact with her last year around this time, when she and Tony Wheeler were working on the Skate Talk Online broadcast. It was Jacque's final gift to skating fans. She will be greatly missed.

Oh, I'm so sorry, I thought it was Jacque as in the French male name "Jacques". I edited my original post. I'm so sorry to hear about this. I wish I had gotten the opportunity to know her better.

 

[aftershocks]

Cross-posting from Canadian pairs thread:

... The Russians always seem to have well matched teams in this aspect but there is a larger talent pool to choose from I suppose.

This is for sure...There is a very small percentage of people in Canada who could afford figure skating past the huge group lesson stage. So the majority of the pop. however talented will never be known of.

You are so right. I often wonder how it works. I guess in Russia where they always seem to have such a talent pool it must be cheaper or expenses covered.

This is an interesting discussion to explore... From the little I've heard, Russian culture is very rich in dance and theater history. The Russian people revere dancers, male and female. Pursuing a career in ballet and in figure skating, is seemingly viewed as lofty and well-respected endeavors, as well as opportunities for a good life if you become highly successful. There are documentaries that reveal how many youngsters try to get into the top Russian ballet school (all expenses taken care of). Not everyone will make it unless they are felt to have the right body type to excel in ballet. I saw that in an older documentary, so I'm not sure how things stand currently for young dance and figure skating aspirants in Russia.

In general, I'm not sure about the back story involving Russian training in figure skating. We have heard about how hard a time Maria Butryskaya had finding consistent training and a coach who believed in her. The Russian fed and some coaches felt she wasn't good enough. It was through sheer desire that Butryskaya prevailed. She certainly never had the softest of knees for skating.

It's no secret and no surprise that Russian skaters first excelled in ice dance and pairs skating, in part due to the culture's rich history in dance and theater. It was the Protopopovs (Belousova/Protopopov) who singlehandedly changed the landscape of pairs skating in the early 1960s with their balletic approach. The discipline changed overnight and never looked back.

The other part of this of course, is that skaters in Russia, China, and probably in Japan and Korea as well, have their training and expenses taken care of by their federations (via their governments, I suppose). Prospective Russian skaters see making it to the top in figure skating as a ticket to a good life. In the United States and Canada, young athletes have a variety of options to excel in any number of different career paths.

Not having to worry about training expenses does make a difference, but culturally and organizationally, the United States and Canada are different from Russian and Asian countries, and I don't see those political, social and cultural differences changing. It's simply up to the respective federations in the U.S. and Canada to decide how to go about re-structuring and improving the opportunities that are offered for figure skating training to the general populace. It's very random and definitely not based on examining body type to determine future athletic prospects, much less on providing training expenses. I'm sure there are drawbacks, advantages and disadvantages in every country's variant set-ups and structural systems for sport.

 

[excessmotion]

That's fine if that's how you see it. But factually, D/R definitely did have wonderful unison on their sbs spins, despite not being the ideal physical match. They overcame the physical drawbacks through determination, personal compatibility, mutual goals, hard work, and a sympatico spiritual bond. Listen to their numerous interviews, video profiles (still available on Youtube), and as well review many of their competitive performances with accompanying commentary by analysts.

Meagan has the best attitude. She admits she knows she was never the ideal body type or style for a pairs champion but she worked with what she had and made it incredible.

 

[Janef]

Cross-posting from Canadian pairs thread:







This is an interesting discussion to explore... From the little I've heard, Russian culture is very rich in dance and theater history. The Russian people revere dancers, male and female. Pursuing a career in ballet and in figure skating, is seemingly viewed as lofty and well-respected endeavors, as well as opportunities for a good life if you become highly successful. There are documentaries that reveal how many youngsters try to get into the top Russian ballet school (all expenses taken care of). Not everyone will make it unless they are felt to have the right body type to excel in ballet. I saw that in an older documentary, so I'm not sure how things stand currently for young dance and figure skating aspirants in Russia.

In general, I'm not sure about the back story involving Russian training in figure skating. We have heard about how hard a time Maria Butryskaya had finding consistent training and a coach who believed in her. The Russian fed and some coaches felt she wasn't good enough. It was through sheer desire that Butryskaya prevailed. She certainly never had the softest of knees for skating.

It's no secret and no surprise that Russian skaters first excelled in ice dance and pairs skating, in part due to the culture's rich history in dance and theater. It was the Protopopovs (Belousova/Protopopov) who singlehandedly changed the landscape of pairs skating in the early 1960s with their balletic approach. The discipline changed overnight and never looked back.

The other part of this of course, is that skaters in Russia, China, and probably in Japan and Korea as well, have their training and expenses taken care of by their federations (via their governments, I suppose). Prospective Russian skaters see making it to the top in figure skating as a ticket to a good life. In the United States and Canada, young athletes have a variety of options to excel in any number of different career paths.

Not having to worry about training expenses does make a difference, but culturally and organizationally, the United States and Canada are different from Russian and Asian countries, and I don't see those political, social and cultural differences changing. It's simply up to the respective federations in the U.S. and Canada to decide how to go about re-structuring and improving the opportunities that are offered for figure skating training to the general populace. It's very random and definitely not based on examining body type to determine future athletic prospects, much less on providing training expenses. I'm sure there are drawbacks, advantages and disadvantages in every country's variant set-ups and structural systems for sport.

That’s a lot of info! There definitely needs to be more support. I hate seeing go fund me requests from our cdn and us skaters. They shouldn’t have to at the elite level or if they have talent but not the money. I don’t know what the solution is but there should be something. To think how outrageous the money and support nhl and basketball players get. Probably not a greAt comparison.

 

[Japanfan]

Meagan has the best attitude. She admits she knows she was never the ideal body type or style for a pairs champion but she worked with what she had and made it incredible.

I remember a Canadian commentator once saying that Megan was 'that' precocious teenager proclaiming that she was going to be World Champion one day, and people responded by rolling their eyes and thinking 'ya right, you'.

One of the things I learned in journalism school was 'to build up your strengths so that your weaknesses don't matter'. Megan did exactly that and is a champion in the true sense of the word.

 

[aftershocks]

I remember a Canadian commentator once saying that Megan was 'that' precocious teenager proclaiming that she was going to be World Champion one day, and people responded by rolling their eyes.

It just goes to show what self-belief, hard work and determination can do for an athlete.

 

[AngieNikodinovLove (ANL)]

The schedule says pairs free starts at 1,09 pm Pacific... Its 1,43 pm Pacific.. and no ISU results coming through....

Did i miss something?

 

[NAOTMAA]

The schedule says pairs free starts at 1,09 pm Pacific... Its 1,43 pm Pacific.. and no ISU results coming through....

Did i miss something?

Thank god I'm not the only one. I thought it was suppose to be 4:09 Eastern time. I was just thinking I can't read the time right anymore

Does anyone else know????

 

[Wyliefan]

I think Wedgie is down. The first group just finished. C/J are in the lead so far.

 

[Karen-W]

Thank god I'm not the only one. I thought it was suppose to be 4:09 Eastern time. I was just thinking I can't read the time right anymore

Does anyone else know????

Wedgie Data seems to be broken at the moment. After the 1st flight - C/J 180.xx, R/W 155.xx, A/W 152.xx, J/B can't recall but quite a bit back.

 

[AngieNikodinovLove (ANL)]

I think Wedgie is down. The first group just finished. C/J are in the lead so far.

Uggggg. I'm sitting here at the computer wondering if I was not understanding the concept of time

 

[AngieNikodinovLove (ANL)]

Wow, D&F almost won the free program at SA.

Congrats to them.

Less than a point from winning.

 

[SleepyShawn]

Woah finally some program news from Sui and Han

SP: Blues Deluxe
FS: Rain in Your Black Eyes

http://www.isuresults.com/bios/isufs00012227.htm

It’s rare for them to recycle, but I’m all for it. This FS and 2017 FS I haven’t seen enough times

 

[aftershocks]

^^ It makes sense for Sui/Han to recycle because they haven't skated full seasons for the past three seasons, so their programs have not been competed that often. They have good programs to choose from that can get more deserved mileage.


Bringing part of the recent conversation in U.S. pairs over here:

I think if they actually skated clean (w/ sbs triples), Alexa and Chris would definitely be above Ashley and Tim. They have a better twist, better throws and better lifts (GOE-wise) and generally good pair elements. Now, I think Ashley and Tim are probably more likely to skate clean than the Knierims, so there's that.

^^ True, but don't discount how Ash/Timothy have improved their speed, smoothness and overall precision even since Worlds 2019. Continuing to improve in every aspect and learning how to be steady performers is probably the key to success for pairs teams. And then having boffo weapons to enhance overall quality and consistency, can seal the deal. Mostly what we see is how hard it is to have everything working on all cylinders at all times. The Russians often seem to have great technical expertise combined with Russian prestige. But in general, T/M especially and some of the younger teams lack personality, connection and charismatic presence on the ice. In general, many of the U.S. teams and international teams like James/Cipres and Sui/Han have personality plus!

I think Haven/Brandon's dramatic and strong fp this season, that builds to such a high with adagio pairs elements in perfect concert with the musical high notes at the end of their program, is going to serve as a significant blueprint for a lot of teams internationally. Brandon credits John Z for the lift layout and boffo ideas for that program. Surely many international teams are taking note to possibly try and emulate similar ideas and layout patterns next season. In addition, the quality Calalang/Johnson are showing on the ice with their speed, quality elements and charisma is gaining them international attention already as a newly paired team in only their second season together.

With everyone so up-and-down, it's tough to get feelers as to who international judges would go for if all the teams skated clean.

My best guess: 1. Ashley/Tim 2. Alexa/Chris 3. Haven/Brandon 4. Jessica/Brian

Every one of these teams have high quality and possess excellent programs this season. We have to factor in rep level with international judges, the amount of experience each team have together, combined with recent results. And in that respect, how you have listed them is probably the case. Tarah/Danny should never be counted out competitively. But they apparently are adjusting to their new coaching environment, and possibly Tarah is still undergoing injury rehab to stay fit.

Coming back from injury is a long-term battle. This reality was brought home to me when Tara & Johnny mentioned that Peng has a current ongoing injury issue and that she's constantly in pain while skating. That might be adding to P/J's ongoing inconsistency, and that is why they did a planned sbs double rather than a sbs triple (also reminiscent of Haven/Brandon's struggles on sbs jumps post her knee surgery and rehab).

The young Russian team P/K are solid technically, but they are still young and inexperienced. Plus, as usual, solid technique and Russian pairs prestige gives these young Russian teams more PCS than they deserve in some categories.

Further in regard to Tarah/Danny, Tarah must focus on her skating skills which would help in improving their overall speed. And upgrading their 3-twist is still a work-in-progress. The improvements T&D need will be crucial, especially with a quality team like Calalang/Johnson on the rise, who excel across-the-board with speed, SS, charismatic connection, cool choreo, presence on the ice, and top-notch elements. C/J's main things to work on are sbs jump consistency and gaining experience together.

The biggest takeaway should be that U.S. teams are showing they are a force to be reckoned with and that they deserve to be given a lot of credit, particularly when they perform well. For the most part, I would say based on performances, most of the judging has been fair so far this season. Still, there's always the political factor, and the unfairness of how PCS is not accurately assessed but meted out in a range, often based on politics or level of tech expertise.

 

[aftershocks]

Peng/Jin have a lot of personality and quality elements, but to me they have struggled quite often with consistency, even despite benefiting from Sui/Han and Yu/Zhang being largely off the competitive scene the past few seasons. Despite their stellar abilites, P/J are still not putting everything together cleanly. So the SA outcome really turned out flat and disappointing in the fp, aside from the wonderful performances by Haven/Brandon and Calalang/Johnson.

Pavluchenko/Khodykin are very talented and they have shown some mature improvements. They are more technically proficient than ever before, but still as a young team they are learning and gaining experience, so they were definitely vulnerable and beatable. P/K certainly did not skate lights out in the fp. Their weaknesses are lack of emotional connection and no personality. Especially Pavluchenko maintains this steely, dead look on her face throughout performing. While Khodykin at least seemed to relax and show some humor in the kiss 'n cry, Pavluchenko was staring daggers until she saw that they'd landed in second. Only then did she break out in a smile.

SA was definitely an excellent opportunity for Ash/Timothy to win a gold medal. A&T would have been in first after the sp without the fluke fall in the sp. In the fp, A&T didn't appear to have enough turnaround time to process everything. They were still in a good position though to lay down a strong fp, which again would have given them the win since P/J and P/K both had problems in their fps.

It's surely a different feeling skating in one's home country with the expectation of having a good opportunity to win. On the bright side, this will definitely be an important learning experience for A&T. GPF is out of the question now for A&T, but they still have an opportunity to come back strong and medal at IDF.

 

[oleada]

I'm wondering who every one here thinks will make the GPF. James/Cipres and Zabijako/Enbert are obviously out of the GP series. I assume that Sui/Han are a lock, if they are healthy. Based on how Skate America turned out, I think there is a not unrealistic shot that the GPF could be 2 Chinese teams and 4 Russian teams. Cain-Gribble/LeDuc are pretty much out, even if they win IdF. Peng/Jin are in a very good position to make it, with one gold already (and CoC isn't the deepest field outside the top 2 teams; I'm assuming they'll go 1-2). Pavlyuchenko/Khodykin are also in a solid position.

Skate Canada is a tricky one, because it's a very deep field. Based on Worlds results, Tarasova/Morosov and Boikova/Kozlovski should be the top two. But, KMT/M are skating at home, and they had a very good Challenger event. Maybe the Knierims will land their jumps (though frankly, I doubt it) but they're a good team regardless. And Lyubov and Charlie will also be at home That said, as good as they've gotten so quickly, I don't think they're there yet.

IdF is also interesting because there's no clear top team. Mishina/Galliamov have the highest SB, but it's close between them and Cain/LeDuc, who can always win even if they don't make the final. Pavlyuchenko/Khodykin and Denney/Frazier are also here, and though D/F are my favorite US team, I think that repeating their podium finish from SkAm will be difficult.

I expect T/M and B/K to go 1-2 at CoR. The competition isn't that deep.

I expect Sui/Han to win NHK but a battle between Mishina/Galliamov and KMT/M will be interesting. Their SB scores are within tenths of each other. I suppose that the Knierims could podium if they land their jumps.

So my guess is Sui/Han, Peng/Jin, and 4 of the Tarasova/Morozov, Boikova/Kozlovski, Pavlyiuchenko/Khodykin, Mishina/Galliamov and Moore-Towers/Marinara. I think that KMT/M got a bit unlucky in that their GPs are a bit deeper (on paper) than teams like C-G/L, Peng/Jin and Pavlyuchenko/Khodykin. I also think their ceiling is a bit lower than teams near them at Worlds, i.e B/K and P/J. Of course, ice is slippery and anything could happen, etc.

 

[aka_gerbil]

I feel like T/M are in the same category as the two Chinese teams and not one of the group competing for the other four spots. I think it’s those three and then the other teams you listed competing for the other three spots.

 

[oleada]

I feel like T/M are in the same category as the two Chinese teams and not one of the group competing for the other four spots. I think it’s those three and then the other teams you listed competing for the other three spots.

I actually totally agree. P/J, S/H, T/M and 3 of the other 4 might’ve been a better way to state it.

 

[Mad for Skating]

Woah finally some program news from Sui and Han

SP: Blues Deluxe
FS: Rain in Your Black Eyes

http://www.isuresults.com/bios/isufs00012227.htm

It’s rare for them to recycle, but I’m all for it. This FS and 2017 FS I haven’t seen enough times

I'm excited to see this program recycled. It was epic at Worlds and they only got to perform it twice, so I think it's a great idea.

 

[aftershocks]

SA pairs event was rather disappointing, aside from the strides made by Haven/Brandon, and the lovely on-the-rise pairing of Calalang/ Johnson. Ash/Timothy are much improved and had some takeaway lessons of skating under pressure with the gold in sight.

At SC, will T/M have found their missing mojo or still look clueless? Will Kirsten/Michael continue rising to the occasion? How will Luba/Charlie fare after their promising outing at Finlandia? Will the Knierims ace their sbs jumps to enhance their boffo elements and excellent programs? Where will Boikova/Koslovskii find themselves in this mix? And the second tier of Calalang/Johnson, Walsh/Michaud, and China's Tang/Yang are all talented. If C/J skate well, I think they are better than the latter two teams.

I'm not so much interested in who makes the GPF, because so many top teams aren't competing on the GP this season. The results of GPF will not be any indication of what's going to happen going forward. Injuries and politics are also always factors. A lot of teams are getting good and trying to find ways to stand out, so there's a lot of depth and I anticipate neck-and-neck battles leading into the next Olympics.

Frankly, there will likely be teams making the GPF who aren't that consistent or that well-rounded: e.g., Peng/Jin (not consistent) and Pavluchenko/Khodykin (she is boring & they are not well-rounded). We have also heard that Peng is skating with injuries and their sbs double jumps in the fp at SA were planned. While P/J have quality elements, I think they have been given some gift scoring and undeserved rep cred in general because S/H and Y/Z have been out of the GP the past few seasons.

Whatever we think should happen on paper could be up-ended in this transitional season. T/M are floating on their Russian prestige and tech expertise rep by this point. They lack chemistry on the ice and it's as tiresome trying to root for them to improve in that area, as it is tiresome crossing fingers for the Knierims and other teams with jump hiccoughs to get it together because they have everything else.

As far as Russian teams, I pine over and miss Bazarova/Deputat who weren't given much support (or whatever went wrong), and Ashtakova/Rogonov were fun to watch, but apparently her heart was not in competing. Rogonov is definitely missed on the pairs scene in more ways than one. Hopefully, Stolbova/Novoselov and Boikova/Koslovskii will rise over T/M and Z/E. The latter two teams lack personality and excitement on the ice. I'm not on board yet with Mishina/Galliamov just because they have quality elements.

 

[Mad for Skating]

Pavluchenko/Khodykin (she is boring & they are not well-rounded)

Not to pick a fight here, but Pavliuchenko isn’t boring to me at all. She’s young, but she has a seriousness and intensity I like. If anything, it’s Khodykin who could work on his expression.

 

[aftershocks]

Not to pick a fight here, but Pavliuchenko isn’t boring to me at all. She’s young, but she has a seriousness and intensity I like. If anything, it’s Khodykin who could work on his expression.

Uh, of course our differing opinions aren't battle-worthy. IMO both clearly need to work on connection, expression and projection to the audience during their performances. At least Khodykin expressed a sense of humor in the kiss 'n cry while waiting for ther marks after the fp. They have improved since they came up to seniors, but they are still a developing team without much personality. IOW, they have very good technique which is still coming together for them consistently, yet they aren't as engaging as some teams. They don't draw me in, and I've heard knowledgeable commentators voice similar assessments.

 

[love_skate2011]

Not to pick a fight here, but Pavliuchenko isn’t boring to me at all. She’s young, but she has a seriousness and intensity I like. If anything, it’s Khodykin who could work on his expression.

personality wise they are opposites Khodykin likes to joke around see their Kiss n Cry reactions while Pvlyuchenko is stone cold, she got stunned by her fall I guess. But I agree he needs more improvement as his posture is horrid and skating skills need more work.