Pairs Discussion Thread 2019-20: “Two skating as one”

Uh, of course our differing opinions aren't battle-worthy. IMO both clearly need to work on connection, expression and projection to the audience during their performances. At least Khodykin expressed a sense of humor in the kiss 'n cry while waiting for ther marks after the fp. They have improved since they came up to seniors, but they are still a developing team without much personality. IOW, they have very good technique which is still coming together for them consistently, yet they aren't as engaging as some teams. They don't draw me in, and I've heard knowledgeable commentators voice similar assessments.

Yeah, I feel like they just lack a bit of that it-factor. Boikova/Kozlovskii are young but they’ve got it already. I think this season is a big step forward for P/K, but it might take some time to develop. However, I still think Daria has a mother lode of potential.
 
Yeah, I feel like they just lack a bit of that it-factor. Boikova/Kozlovskii are young but they’ve got it already. I think this season is a big step forward for P/K, but it might take some time to develop. However, I still think Daria has a mother lode of potential.

Im actually surprised B/K, P/K and M/G have done well transitioning into seniors so Fast, some pairs take years to even gel most have sort of problems once they turn senior but maybe because these new russian pairs have the technical foundations already. This is the deepest depth in russian pairs (Non USSR era) since I can remember.

The scores on T/M reflect the judges are willing to ruffle their feathers if they mess up and put another russian on a top pedestal in their ranking, they really need to be consistent this season to keep their russian no.1 in the eyes of the judges.
 
I'm so impressed by how Boikova/Koslovskii are looking and skating. He has calmed down considerably and they both seem very trained, fit and confident. They are absolutely lovely in the sp. It was a delight to watch. This is a Russian team I can get behind and cheer for -- but they've always had charisma and potential. They are living up to the promise they showed last season. I hope what they've shown at SC continues to fruitfully blossom! :cheer2:

I really like how B/K aced all their elements with ease in the sp (they showed a slight bit more effort in the fp which is understandable under pressure). Moreover, they connect so well with each other and with the audience. Plus, they have Moskvina! :summer: I know B/K are a young team, but in their case, I can see them being scored even higher on PCS, but they weren't in either program. In the fp, B/K scored a bit higher in some PCS categories than they had in the sp, yet the judges still had them behind M-T/M on CO, IN, and SS! :eek: That's just wrong. Even on PE, B/K were only slightly higher than M-T/M while having performed overall better than M-T/M without any mistakes. That boils down to SC home cooking.


It looks to me as if there was a hope K&M could topple B/K. It wasn't going to happen. K&M should be happy with placing in front of woeful-looking T/M. Sadly, T/M don't look happy, they look tense and anxious. This is what comes of being given gift scores so often with mistakes and with subpar programs. Yet T/M are still being overscored on IN. They have a bit better choreo this season, but they are slogging through it like they aren't convinced. They deserve to be surpassed by B/K and by Stolbova/Novoselov if S/N come out looking top-notch. I am down for celebrating any Russian pairs team who can actually show they have personalities while skating. To this day, I bemoan never having the chance to see Bazarova/Deputat fully develop -- they were a team with a lot of sexy chemistry, but apparently not enough Rusfed political support.
 
Im actually surprised B/K, P/K and M/G have done well transitioning into seniors so Fast

Regardless of how fast or how slow Russian pairs teams transition to seniors, they are always rated highly, almost across-the-board, without having to pay too many dues. Z/E have always been over-scored IMHO. The only problem facing Russian pairs teams are their quantity and depth of talent, which makes it more difficult to battle for the World team.

This current crop of Russian pairs do have a lot of talent, but I think we've known that for some time.
 
To this day, I bemoan never having the chance to see Bazarova/Deputat fully develop -- they were a team with a lot of sexy chemistry, but apparently not enough Rusfed political support.
I mean, I loved DivaVera since her junior days, but this is just revisionist history. They finished consistently behind Stolbova/Klimov, Volosozhar/Trankov, Kavaguti/Smirnov and Tarasova/Morosov because they could not land a clean 3T to save their lives (let alone a second triple - the 2A was a struggle, too). She had the best positions but her jumps were an issue dating back to her junior skating with Larionov.
 
I'm so impressed by how Boikova/Koslovskii are looking and skating. He has calmed down considerably and they both seem very trained, fit and confident. They are absolutely lovely in the sp. It was a delight to watch. This is a Russian team I can get behind and cheer for -- but they've always had charisma and potential. They are living up to the promise they showed last season. I hope what they've shown at SC continues to fruitfully blossom! :cheer2:

I really like how B/K aced all their elements with ease in the sp (they showed a slight bit more effort in the fp which is understandable under pressure). Moreover, they connect so well with each other and with the audience. Plus, they have Moskvina! :summer: I know B/K are a young team, but in their case, I can see them being scored even higher on PCS, but they weren't in either program. In the fp, B/K scored a bit higher in some PCS categories than they had in the sp, yet the judges still had them behind M-T/M on CO, IN, and SS! :eek: That's just wrong. Even on PE, B/K were only slightly higher than M-T/M while having performed overall better than M-T/M without any mistakes. That boils down to SC home cooking.

Don't forget worlds will be in Canada this year. Which means B/K and everyone else (except S/H really) will have to be as on point as possible because the judges will be trying to push M-T/M onto the podium with everything they got. The "home cooking" you saw here (132 for that FS? those PCS marks in both segments? seriously? :rolleyes:) is only a dress rehearsal for Montreal :scream:

EDIT: B/K only beat M-T/M by .95 in the SP and 7.27 in the FS. Only 8.22 points overall! Considering the performances actually put on ice the margin in both segments was too small.
 
Last edited:
Don't forget worlds will be in Canada this year. Which means B/K and everyone else (except S/H really) will have to be as on point as possible because the judges will be trying to push M-T/M onto the podium with everything they got.
CAN was one of the 13 countries drawn for the pairs event at 2020 Worlds, along with AUT, CHN, CRO, CZE, FRA, GER, GBR, ITA, LAT, RUS, ESP & USA. Nine judges will be drawn for the SP and, IIRC, the 4 not drawn will judge the FS. I rather doubt ALL the judges will be pushing a CAN pair "with everything they got." ;)
 
I guess I'm in the minority- I don't really see so much an X-factor with B/K, but their progress throughout each season has been impressive. Not to mention their consistency has been considerably improved since turning seniors.
 
I don't know wth is going on with T&M. They have great elements and quality in their skating. They are young and good to look at as a Pair. They have everything going on for them, yet they seem like they are "dead" on Ice. This is a psychological problem, and also mediocre programs surely don't help.
 
I don't know wth is going on with T&M. They have great elements and quality in their skating. They are young and good to look at as a Pair. They have everything going on for them, yet they seem like they are "dead" on Ice. This is a psychological problem, and also mediocre programs surely don't help.

This season and last season they had good programs. They had skated well at worlds in 2019. Hopefully by the next worlds they will straighten things out.
 
I mean, I loved DivaVera since her junior days, but this is just revisionist history. They finished consistently behind Stolbova/Klimov, Volosozhar/Trankov, Kavaguti/Smirnov and Tarasova/Morosov because they could not land a clean 3T to save their lives (let alone a second triple - the 2A was a struggle, too). She had the best positions but her jumps were an issue dating back to her junior skating with Larionov.

Bazarova/Deputat were not around for very long. Vera skated much longer with 'truck-driver' looking Larionov. And that was the crux of her problem, as they were physically a bit mismatched and lacked chemistry. I heard on FSU that Vera was advised to dump Larionov and get a more suitable partner, but she wished to stay with Larionov, until it became too late. Once Vera wised-up and partnered with the handsome and talented Andrei Deputat, they did not appear to have the kind of support they needed to persevere. Deputat had previously partnered uber-lovely Vasilisa Davankova in juniors to wonderful success, but she grew too tall for him.

I have said nothing about B/D vs the teams you are going on about. :duh: Sure there could be lots of tech-related drawbacks as well as personal issues B/D suffered, along with simply not having enough resources and backing to support trying to fully develop a partnership. Z/E partnered around the same time as B/D, but Z/E had Mozer as their coach and thus Z/E received the kind of encouragement and attention in the early stages of their pairing that bore fruit for them on the larger stage (even despite them lacking chemistry and on-ice personalities). Z/E have the long lines and the tech ability that B/D may have lacked, but it's still too bad that B/D's lightning chemistry had no chance to gain a leg up.


At least they had some exciting chemistry (Andrei even got punched in the nose in that last number :eek:), but I guess it was just too late in general for Vera's career prospects. Still, she came alive in ways we could have never anticipated after all those bland, boring seasons with Larionov.

I haven't heard what Vera is doing these days, but of course, sexy Deputat is happily married to Ekaterina Bobrova:

Happily married with son:
 
Last edited:
I rather doubt ALL the judges will be pushing a CAN pair "with everything they got." ;)

Ah, but Sylvia, who knows what actually goes on behind-the-scens and under-the-radar wid dem judges! ;) Sure most are honest and above board, hopefully. But 'quid pro quo' seems to have been invented by figure skating judges and honchos. Albeit the good old days of European bloc-judging aren't as rampant.

Sonja Henie's Dad was definitely a fixer and a moneybags back-in-the-day. Which doesn't mean Henie didn't have the talent to amass her wins. Still, I don't think it's beyond the realm of possibiity that some of her closest battles might have been helped to sway in her direction.
 
You’re saying that Vera/Andrey were not supported politically and that’s why they didn’t get opportunities. I’m saying that you’re wrong on that. They were quite a few international opportunities to compete since teaming up, including two GPs in their first season. That would’ve never happened if they didn’t have some political support. I mention those teams because those were the teams Bazarova/Deputat needed to beat to make it to any sort of European and Worlds team. That’s the Olympic Champions, silver medalists, two teams with multiple world medals (and they lost to Astakhova/Rogonov too, who are none of the above but has nice side by side jumps and personality, normally). You have to be something really spectacular to make it to the team with those. And as much as I don’t like Zabijako/Enbert, they do have strong skating skills and side by side jumps.

Not only did Vera and Andrey have trouble rotating the jumps, they never got the timing right and had bad synchronization with them, and their twist was rough at times. And you say they had some mind blowing chemistry, and while I think they’re lovely to watch, I don’t think their chemistry was particularly amazing. They only competed for two seasons and who knows what could’ve happened had they stayed together.

You also say that she came alive in ways no one could have ever predicted, but anyone who saw Vera since her junior days knew she was something truly special. She won medals at Europeans; competed at two Olympics and won multiple GP medals. It’s more than I expected, as a fan, especially after Larionov’s drug ban forced them to miss over a season of competition. It gives me hope that other non great jumping pairs ladies who have everything else (cough Panfilova cough) can achieve as much.

But this is par for the course with you, ignoring facts to fit your narrative.
 
@oleada :blah: Get over it already. FGS. One off-hand reference by me to B/D who I really enjoyed watching the short time they were around, and you have the urge to go on an endless conniption fit, making a mountain out of a molehill. A number of fans on FSU spoke about how Vera really sparkled and showed a new side of herself in her partnership with Deputat. And although she was not a strong jumper, it's not as if she was never able to land jumps, like you claim. That said, I seriously doubt your angst has zip to do with B/D in the first place.

In my post responding to your need to challenge my passing reference, I admitted that a lot goes on fans are not privy to. From the outside looking in, I was disappointed that Z/E were the boring team who rose in Mozer's camp, while B/D with whatever coaching team they had, faded into the sunset. B/D surely competed on the GP, which denotes some general support for their partnership, but I don't see where they had a top coach with political pull and lots of push to help them get over the hurdles. As I said, there's lots of reasons for an exciting team not being able to make it, besides lack of political backing. You are purposely ignoring aspects of what I said in order to go on about what's in your head, and what suits your gnarly narrative. :yawn:

They had skated well at worlds in 2019.

T/M were up for 2019 Worlds after a less than completely stellar season, by their standards. They got some eye-rolling help from the judges with that overly high sp score, for sure. As did Sui/Han, who by dint of respect for their talent have managed to make noise for only part of the season over the last three seasons, due to Sui's injury rehab. It will be interesting to see how Sui fares for a full season.

T/M were not really spectacular at Worlds 2019, but they got by. They didn't exactly turn heads with their programs. Nor have they ever been an innovative or exciting pairs team. They are nice looking and they could give a clinic with their best elements, when they are in-the-zone, which hasn't been too often lately. When they skate well, they deserve high scores for their elements. They have never deserved the high scores they liberally get for CO and IN.
 
Last edited:
Regarding Bazarova&Deputat discussion, I really liked that couple. 🥰
They looked exquisite in many aspects and I was really hoping they would work as a Pair.
But @oleada is right, technically they were nowhere near the other pairs. Yes, political games have a role in these things as well, and some skaters might not get enough support. But Russian Fed. aren't stupid. They see and know these skaters more than we do. If they see potential they don't let you go easily. Anyway, what's done is done now. Here is hoping Ksenia and Andrei have a good start. Fingers crossed. :saint:

This season and last season they had good programs. They had skated well at worlds in 2019. Hopefully by the next worlds they will straighten things out.

Well, de gustibus, I suppose. For me both free programs from last season and this one are mediocre, at best. The short is decent but their interpretation and performance is lacking. This is not about a doubling a jump or missing an element. Mistakes do happen, so it's not a big deal. This is about the energy they project on ice. There is none. They look like two strangers. Tatiana's expression, in particular, was like she was annoyed being there or smth. I don't get it.
 
Last edited:
Regarding Bazarova&Deputat discussion, I really liked that couple. 🥰
They looked exquisite in many aspects and I was really hoping they would work as a Pair.
But @oleada is right, technically they were nowhere near the other pairs. Yes, political games have a role in these things as well, and some skaters might not get enough support. But Russian Fed. aren't stupid. They see and know these skaters more than we do. If they see potential they don't let you go easily. Anyway, what's done is done now. Here is hoping Ksenia and Andrei have a good start. Fingers crossed. :saint:



Well, de gustibus, I suppose. For me both free programs from last season and this one are mediocre, at best. The short is decent but their interpretation and performance is lacking. This is not about a doubling a jump or missing an element. Mistakes do happen, so it's not a big deal. This is about the energy they project on ice. There is none. They look like two strangers. Tatiana's expression, in particular, was like she was annoyed being there or smth. I don't get it.

Tatiana?

Whatever their current situation may be, last year their SP and LP were both good and well received at worlds. At SA they received a standing ovation even with a few mistakes. This year their LP is innovative. By the end of the season it could look good. It looked at the test skates in Russia. They had two bad competitions in a row but there is no need to imagine things. When you make mistakes it can result in loss of confidence. The cure for it is hard work. I am sure Marina will be working with them to fix the problems.
 
Last edited:
They have everything going on for them, yet they seem like they are "dead" on Ice.

I don't think so. I think the programs are good. I think the exhibition is even better than the Bolero SP. (The crowd loved the ex. It was a surprise to the audience, I think, because T&M hadn't skated their best in the event; but the crowd got a sense of magic during that gala number). I think Tarasova & Morozov have pressure as the Russian pairs champions, which is probably what we are seeing. And the jumps haven't been working for her. (So, of course, she gets the one in the SP and he--probably worrying about her--blows his).

They had the same struggles with the jumps early last season, and scored high against most pair teams in their fields anyway. But we're past the post-Olympic year now. The field has tightened up and so has the generosity from the judges for athletes that had a lot more cushion following the Olympic season. The pressure at home has turned up. T&M have made a huge move, and that usually takes time to adjust to.

Then he missed the lift, which he used to do all the time but hasn't for a while and miraculously didn't even miss at the U.S. Classic where most pair guys can't get the lifts. Sometimes blank happens, and it did there because you can't miss a lift. They're worth too many points.

Boikova & Kozlovskii skated great in the competition here. Their elements are big--with great flight--and they skated like a team on the chase. And very significantly, they were rewarded for it against a solid M-T&M in the SP at home in Canada. But of course, what kind of pressure did B&K have? They come in--with a Russian team to chase and nobody really chasing them--having pulled out of Finlandia.

Anyway, boy was it a coup for B&K. They did their job. They splatted at the end of their exhibition number;), which maybe implies that it might be a tad early to lay money on them, but they did what you've got to do. They skated great and showed they could win away from home.

Should be a fun--and possibly unpredictable--season in Russian pairs.
 
Last edited:

Sorry, Evgenija. I always think of Tat when I think "Tarasova". :lol:

Whatever their current situation may be, last year their SP and LP were both good and well received at worlds. At SA they received a standing ovation even with a few mistakes.

As I said, degustibus. They were :blah: and overscored in terms of PCS. But that's just me, we have to agree to disagree.

They had two bad competitions in a row but there is no need to imagine things.

I'm not imagining anything. I'm not predicting their future. Nobody can, only time will tell. I am simply describing the impression they left on me. 🤷‍♀️ I have no problems to give them their dues, when I think they are great, as I have done in the past.
 
But @oleada is right, technically they were nowhere near the other pairs.

True, but I never said anything about B/D being 'technically near other pairs.' I only spoke about how much I enjoyed watching them, and how I feel they didn't have enough support to be able to improve. As I said, there could also be other reasons their pairing did not work which we aren't privy to. When I say there was lack of political support, I'm not saying Rusfed gave them no support, just that B/D did not apparently have a top coach with political clout, which can make a difference. I say this because when I saw Z/E come together under Mozer, I thought they were nice looking, but from the beginning I was unimpressed with their bland skating, and I rooted more for B/D.

It is my impression that B/D not being in Mozer's stable at a time when she was the top pairs coach in Russia, added to the things that were not in B/D's favor. It could also be that those who had tried to get Vera to split with Larionov much earlier had washed their hands of her, which would also not be favorable to B/D's parnership. Obviously, if B/D were not seen as strong technically, that would have also worked against them. For me though, I saw in B/D a lot of positives in other areas that I thought if nurtured might have helped overcome their weaknesses. In all of my thinking, I'm not comparing B/D's worth with any of the more established Russian pairs at that time. But since B/D came together around the same time Z/E paired, I always preferred B/D over Z/E, and so I was sad when B/D didn't make it.

TBH, I was never a fan of Vera at all, until she paired with Deputat and he helped bring her personality more alive on the ice. Plus, I had really enjoyed Deputat with Davankova in Juniors.
 
Last edited:
Well, de gustibus, I suppose. For me both free programs from last season and this one are mediocre, at best. The short is decent but their interpretation and performance is lacking. This is not about a doubling a jump or missing an element. Mistakes do happen, so it's not a big deal. This is about the energy they project on ice. There is none. They look like two strangers. Tatiana's expression, in particular, was like she was annoyed being there or smth. I don't get it.

ITA with your description of T/M and their programs. It's difficult to analyze what some of the expressions mean on the faces of Russian pairs divas. Probably for Evgenia (you are thinking of TAT I guess ;)) her facial expression is indicatvie of a desire to be successful, combined with the knowledge that there are so many other good Russian pairs teams ready to take their place if they continue to falter. In addition for T/M, Evgenia's expression could be a reflection of the anxiousness involved in adjusting to a new training camp. She surely also realizes that time is running out for her and Vlad to prevail as the top Russian pairs team expected to successfully make a bid to shine internationally.
 
there is an interesting battle for podium in TEB

If M/G and or P/K get gold and silver. Both can make the GPF so the pressure will be for T/M to win gold in CoR to make the GPF or the Canadians MT/M will get a spot if they dont get a higher SB
 
It's difficult to analyze what some of the expressions mean on the faces of Russian pairs divas.

I usually don't, but I'm talking about the performance and interpretation.

The song Ti Amo is about "a man and the different feelings and stages of a relationship, it describes breaking up with his woman flippantly, being strong and sensitive yet totally weak when it comes to her sexual allure. Loving and hating her at the same time. A relationship that is dying but still they make love. It ultimately describes how he loses his mind over her and the chorus is about desperately begging her to take him back. It also describes why a woman is so attractive and what he loves about her...He describes how they could live happily together which is part of his plea for her to forgive him. "

Watching them skate, I saw absolutely none of that.

Probably for Evgenia (you are thinking of TAT I guess ;))

Damn always. :lol:
 
The issue of how closely choreography needs to stick to the original meaning/context of a piece of music has come up a few times this season, it might be an interesting discussion to have at some point when things are quiet between big competitions. I don't think it has to stick to it at all but it can be distracting when it doesn't. For me, it's not an issue with this piece because it's just not that familiar or well-known, but it's a much bigger issue with H/D's A Star is Born. I wonder if that's one reason skaters do like to skate to warhorses because they become skating pieces and a bit separated from their original narratives, although of course that brings with it a whole other set of expectations/problems.
 
there is an interesting battle for podium in TEB

If M/G and or P/K get gold and silver. Both can make the GPF so the pressure will be for T/M to win gold in CoR to make the GPF or the Canadians MT/M will get a spot if they dont get a higher SB

I don't think T/M will have trouble making the podium at CoR. Their only real competition is Boikova/Koslovskii. We don't yet know how Stolbova/Novoselov will fare, so it will be interesting in that respect. Since CoR isn't until November 15 weekend, T/M have time to regroup. If they skate very poorly, that's when they might be in trouble. If they get silver, they should still make GPF. If they get bronze, I don't know how that stacks up for GPF. If B/K are on, I can see B/K winning gold again, but nothing is set in stone of course.
 
I usually don't, but I'm talking about the performance and interpretation.

The song Ti Amo is about "a man and the different feelings and stages of a relationship, it describes breaking up with his woman flippantly, being strong and sensitive yet totally weak when it comes to her sexual allure. Loving and hating her at the same time. A relationship that is dying but still they make love. It ultimately describes how he loses his mind over her and the chorus is about desperately begging her to take him back. It also describes why a woman is so attractive and what he loves about her...He describes how they could live happily together which is part of his plea for her to forgive him. "

Watching them skate, I saw absolutely none of that.
I guess it depends in what language you listen to that song. In my language the song is about a hole in the ground. A huge hole. Nothing about romance or relationship.
 
I don't think T/M will have trouble making the podium at CoR. Their only real competition is Boikova/Koslovskii. We don't yet know how Stolbova/Novoselov will fare, so it will be interesting in that respect. Since CoR isn't until November 15 weekend, T/M have time to regroup. If they skate very poorly, that's when they might be in trouble. If they get silver, they should still make GPF. If they get bronze, I don't know how that stacks up for GPF. If B/K are on, I can see B/K winning gold again, but nothing is set in stone of course.

MT/M have silver in Canada, they need gold in CoR or a higher SB with silver to be secure a spot in the GPF
 
MTM are competing at NHK against Sui/Han so barring disaster they’re not getting gold

I know that, and their only other competition is M/G (both pairs can get bronze too) but there are others with potentiall S+B medals in the GP points. in order to secure a GPF spot, T/M need to win gold in their next event or silver with high SB
 

Users who are viewing this thread

Back
Top
Do Not Sell My Personal Information