Pairs Discussion Thread 2017-18--"Two Skating as One"

aftershocks

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Check out Ivana Komova's interview with Nina Mozer. Star-making journalism. :p :glamor: Truth squared, cubed, and served up as only Komova can. ;)

Meanwhile the problem of T/M, who have gorgeous skating skills and humongous potential, continues. Why must the judges relentlessly reward the potential which tells overconfident skaters they have nothing to work on? :duh:

T/M -- two skaters in search of something just out of their grasp. Has Mozer learned her lesson yet? Will they give up messin' around with these two, get them some acting lessons and try to channel some John Kerr? Plenty of pairs skaters want some of that magic breath of fresh air choreo. :D T/M's coaching crew sure as hell need to get someone who's not part of their inner circle to take a fresh look at T/M.

It's hard to believe that Peter Tchernyshev has actually worked with T/M! :huh: Maybe Peter is responsible for the go-to classical Russian tradition choreo. He must have given up trying to get Vlad & Evgenia to show some sex on the ice, like he always did with every move he made. :encore: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pc_hSrLA4VQ :swoon:

Truthfully, T/M need to think outside the box, but stay within a style that suits them. That yucky, bouncy, vulgar, misbegotten Candyman type of program never works on the wrong skaters, and the genre itself works better for a sp. What were they thinking anyway?! :drama: Usually, skaters get the message, face facts and ditch what's not working by at least Nationals and before Worlds, forget about remaining stubborn throughout an entire Olympic season! :rolleyes:
 

Sylvia

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JUNIOR WORLDS (entries as of Feb. 27) - pairs compete on Wed.-Thu. March 7 & 8, 2018:
1 Lori-Ann MATTE / Thierry FERLAND CAN 1
2 Evelyn WALSH / Trennt MICHAUD CAN 1 (JGPF 2nd alt. w/ bronze in LAT)
Chloe CHOINARD / Mathieu OSTIGUY CAN 1 S
Gabrielle LEVESQUE / Pier-Alexandre HUDON CAN 1 S
3 Yumeng GAO / Zhong XIE CHN 2 (JGPF 4th)
4 Feiyao TANG / Yongchao YANG CHN 2 (debuted internationally this season)
Yuyao ZHANG / Ziqi JIA CHN 2 S
5 Edita HORNAKOVA / Radek JAKUBKA CZE 3 (debuted internationally this season)
6 Cleo HAMON / Denys STREKALIN FRA 4 (debuted internationally this season)
7 Talisa THOMALLA / Robert KUNKEL GER 5
8 Hailey Esther KOPS / Artem TSOGLIN ISR 6
9 Sara CARLI / Marco PAULETTI ITA 7 (debuted internationally this season)
10 Riku MIURA / Shoya ICHIHASHI JPN 8
11 Polina KOSTIUKOVICH / Dmitrii IALIN RUS 9 (debuted internationally this season; JGPF 1st alt. w/ gold in CRO)
12 Anastasia MISHINA / Aleksandr GALIAMOV RUS 9 (debuted internationally this season)
13 Daria PAVLIUCHENKO / Denis KHODYKIN RUS 9 (debuted internationally this season; JGPF 3rd)
Kseniia AKHANTEVA / Valerii KOLESOV RUS 9 S
Aleksandra BOIKOVA / Dmitrii KOZLOVSKII RUS 9 S
Daria KVARTALOVA / Alexei SVIATCHENKO RUS 9 S
14 Isabella GAMEZ / Ton CONSUL ESP 10 (debuted internationally this season)
15 Sofiia NESTEROVA / Artem DARENSKYI UKR 11 (debuted internationally this season)
16 Sarah FENG / Tommy-Jo NYMAN USA 12 (debuted internationally this season)
17 Audrey LU / Misha MITROFANOV USA 12
Elizabeth Vasilevna KOPMAR / Jonah BARRETT USA 12 S
Laiken LOCKLEY / Keenan PROCHNOW USA 12 S
Nadine WANG / Spencer Akira HOWE USA 12 S
[WD after being intially listed: Greta CRAFOORD / John CRAFOORD SWE]

WORLDS (entries as of Feb. 28) - pairs compete Wed.-Thu. March 21 & 22, 2018:
1 Ekaterina ALEXANDROVSKAYA / Harley WINDSOR AUS 1
2 Miriam ZIEGLER / Severin KIEFER AUT 2
3 Sofiya KARAGODINA / Semyon STEPANOV* AZE 3 (new this season)
4 Kirsten MOORE-TOWERS / Michael MARINARO CAN 4
5 Camille RUEST / Andrew WOLFE* CAN 4
6 Julianne SEGUIN / Charlie BILODEAU CAN 4
Liubov ILYUSHECHKINA / Dylan MOSCOVITCH CAN 4 S
Sydney KOLODZIEJ / Maxime DESCHAMPS CAN 4 S
7 Cheng PENG / Yang JIN CHN 5
8 Wenjing SUI / Cong HAN CHN 5
9 Xiaoyu YU / Hao ZHANG CHN 5
Xuehan WANG / Lei WANG CHN 5 S
Mingyang ZHANG / Bowen SONG CHN 5 S
10 Lana PETRANOVIC / Antonio SOUZA-KORDEIRU CRO 6
11 Anna DUSKOVA / Martin BIDAR CZE 7
12 Tae Ok RYOM / Ju Sik KIM PRK 8
13 Lola ESBRAT / Andrei NOVOSELOV FRA 9
14 Vanessa JAMES / Morgan CIPRES FRA 9
15 Annika HOCKE / Ruben BLOMMAERT* GER 10 (new this season)
16 Aljona SAVCHENKO / Bruno MASSOT GER 10
Minerva Fabienne HASE / Nolan SEEGERT GER 10 S
17 Zoe JONES / Christopher BOYADJI GBR 11
18 Elizaveta KASHITSYNA / Mark MAGYAR* HUN 12 (new this season)
19 Paige CONNERS / Evgeni KRASNOPOLSKI* ISR 13 (new this season)
20 Nicole DELLA MONICA / Matteo GUARISE ITA 14
21 Valentina MARCHEI / Ondrej HOTAREK ITA 14
Rebecca GHILARDI / Filippo AMBROSINI ITA 14 S
22 Miu SUZAKI / Ryuichi KIHARA* JPN 15
23 Kyueun KIM / Alex Kang Chan KAM* KOR 16
24 Kristina ASTAKHOVA / Alexei ROGONOV RUS 17
25 Evgenia TARASOVA / Vladimir MOROZOV RUS 17
26 Natalia ZABIIAKO / Alexander ENBERT RUS 17
Aleksandra BOIKOVA / Dmitrii KOZLOVSKII RUS 17 S
Ksenia STOLBOVA / Fedor KLIMOV RUS 17 S
27 Laura BARQUERO / Aritz MAESTU* ESP 18
28 Ioulia CHTCHETININA / Mikhail AKULOV* SUI 19 (new this season)
29 Tarah KAYNE / Danny O'SHEA USA 20
30 Alexa SCIMECA KNIERIM / Chris KNIERIM USA 20
Ashley CAIN / Timothy LEDUC USA 20 S
Haven DENNEY / Brandon FRAZIER USA 20 S
Deanna STELLATO / Nathan BARTHOLOMAY USA 20 S

* = Worlds debut as a team (9 teams)
 
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SamuraiK

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So 30 entries for worlds. Meaning 14, almost 50% will not make the LP cut.

I know adding another warmup group is out of the question for logistic reasons (zamboni breaks, scheduling, etc.) but for the experts. Will it really be that bad if they allow 5 teams for group????. That way we can have 20 teams in the finals just like Dance.
 

RoseRed

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So 30 entries for worlds. Meaning 14, almost 50% will not make the LP cut.

I know adding another warmup group is out of the question for logistic reasons (zamboni breaks, scheduling, etc.) but for the experts. Will it really be that bad if they allow 5 teams for group????. That way we can have 20 teams in the finals just like Dance.
I don't think 5 teams in a warmup would be safe, considering how often the ice dancers almost collide, and they aren't doing jumps and throws. I do wonder whether they really need a zamboni break every two groups in pairs. In singles, it's every 12 skates, in dance every 10 and in pairs every 8. Could they maybe get away with 12 skates for pairs? Maybe not since there are more people skating.
 

clairecloutier

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I know adding another warmup group is out of the question for logistic reasons (zamboni breaks, scheduling, etc.) but for the experts. Will it really be that bad if they allow 5 teams for group????. That way we can have 20 teams in the finals just like Dance.

This argument goes round and round, but I don’t think we’ve ever actually heard a convincing explanation why it would be so impossible to just add 1 or 2 more pairs groups to the free skate. Obviously it would add a bit of cost, but how much really? TBH the level of skating in the lower (17-22 or so) ranks of pairs is arguably stronger than that of lower-ranked ladies. Yet ladies get many more entries. It’s unfortunate that pairs are penalized in terms of entries just because they require smaller warmup groups. (Yes I do think 4 pairs per group is safe and reasonable. The skaters/coaches are probably the ones who’d have to answer if 5 pairs on warmup would be feasible.)
 

SamuraiK

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This argument goes round and round, but I don’t think we’ve ever actually heard a convincing explanation why it would be so impossible to just add 1 or 2 more pairs groups to the free skate. Obviously it would add a bit of cost, but how much really? TBH the level of skating in the lower (17-22 or so) ranks of pairs is arguably stronger than that of lower-ranked ladies. Yet ladies get many more entries. It’s unfortunate that pairs are penalized in terms of entries just because they require smaller warmup groups. (Yes I do think 4 pairs per group is safe and reasonable. The skaters/coaches are probably the ones who’d have to answer if 5 pairs on warmup would be feasible.)

More than cost it means time also... adding 2 warmups plus the respective zamboni break will mean the Pairs finals will go for almost 5 hours, which is a NO NO for broadcasters (and tbh I believe most of the audience too.. those first groups will be very empty attended) . With the LP being reduced to 4 minutes for the next season I think we could sneak an extra team in the groups but like you said its up to the experts to declare if its safe enough.
 

clairecloutier

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More than cost it means time also... adding 2 warmups plus the respective zamboni break will mean the Pairs finals will go for almost 5 hours, which is a NO NO for broadcasters (and tbh I believe most of the audience too.. those first groups will be very empty attended) . With the LP being reduced to 4 minutes for the next season I think we could sneak an extra team in the groups but like you said its up to the experts to declare if its safe enough.

If the ISU expanded the pairs field in free skate to 20 pairs, then the total minutes of skating involved would still be slightly less than total minutes of skating in the 24-entrant ladies free skate. And that is with current free skate lengths. Yes a bit more time would be added with another resurfacing + an additional warmup--about 20-25 min in all, I would think, which hardly seems like an insurmountable hurdle. Anyhow if the 4-minute pairs free skate does take effect next year, that would also lessen the overall amount of time needed for a 20-pair field.

The reduction in the pairs free skate time has no effect on warmup groups. It does not make a 5-pair warmup group somehow safer than it was before. Actually, with warmup times also being cut, it probably makes it less safe, as pairs may very well be trying to do the same elements faster in the shortened warmup period.
 
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miffy

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A 4 minute free skate?? This is news to me :eek: What elements would go? I think I read the choreographic sequence would go, is that all?
 

Mad for Skating

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A 4 minute free skate?? This is news to me :eek: What elements would go? I think I read the choreographic sequence would go, is that all?

I don't like it any way you slice it, but in general I'm so mad at the ISU and IOC that nothing is new lol.
 

aftershocks

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Here's a full Youtube clip of Savchenko/Massot's fp at the Olympics:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6bNOnXTe4Ok already with 235,157 views :encore:

S/M's victory was made all the more sweet due to it's nailbiting suspense/ comeback aura. I think Bruno's sbs jump doubling out was a less visible (albeit costly) mistake in the sp, than what happened to Sui/Han in the fp. Perhaps Sui's former injured foot gives her problems on her less secure salchow sbs jump. Plus, I don't think that Sui/Han really truly owned Turandot in the way that their coaches Shen/Zhao will always own it. Sui/Han need to put their stamp on their own special signature performance for the ages.
 

Sylvia

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clairecloutier

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I was looking at the Wikipedia article for Worlds, and I think there is a mistake there, but I'm not sure.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Figure_Skating_Championships

Under "Number of Entries", it says:
"All skaters who qualify for the free segment but place 17th or lower receive 16 placement points."

In pairs, I thought that all Worlds participants who place 17th or lower received 18 placement points. Isn't that correct? I can't find the info on the ISU site, though.
 

Sylvia

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In pairs, I thought that all Worlds participants who place 17th or lower received 18 placement points. Isn't that correct? I can't find the info on the ISU site, though.
ISU Rule 378 - Entries ISU Championships Single & Pair Skating & Ice Dance
...
2. b) Overall Entry Quotas per ISU Member for each Championships/discipline:
In order to determine such Overall Entry Quotas, ISU Members who
have participated in the immediately preceding season in the
corresponding discipline (Men, Ladies, Pair Skating, Ice Dance) of the
same Championships shall accumulate points equal to the sum of
placements of their Competitors who were entered in this preceding
season’s Championships. Competitors are considered entered if they
participate in the initial draw.

Competitors who were entered for the Short Program/Short Dance, but
did not qualify for the Free Skating/Free Dance, will be awarded 18
points for Single Skating and the number of points equal to their
placement in Short Program/Short Dance for Pair Skating/Ice Dance
(however if this placement is lower than 18, only 18 points will be
awarded). Competitors who qualified for the Free Skating/Free Dance,
but were not placed higher than 16th place in the final result will be
awarded 16 points
(or the number of points equal to the number of
Competitors if the number of Competitors entered is less than 16 in cases
of withdrawals not specified in the paragraph below).

However the Competitors who withdrew because of:
- illness or injury, (provided this illness or injury is certified by the
ISU Medical Advisor) or
- unexpected damage to the equipment during the warm up or the
performance (provided this damage of the equipment is certified by
the Referee),
are not considered as entered for the purpose of this Rule if they did not
start or finish the Free Skating/Free Dance, but were among the top ten
(10) in the Short Program/Short Dance.

If an ISU Member entered three (3) Competitors in a discipline of a
Championships, only the two (2) best placed Competitors will count for
points;


Source link (page 24): SPECIAL REGULATIONS & TECHNICAL RULES SINGLE & PAIR SKATING and ICE DANCE 2016
 

Mad for Skating

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Cross-posting from the new Stolbova/Klimov thread:

Fedor posted these training clips on his IG and I thought I'd repost them here because usually he never posts anything!!! It seems he's working hard!

https://www.instagram.com/p/BgY94j5gEeh/?hl=en
https://www.instagram.com/p/BgQ8X2VAdLR/?hl=en

It also looks like he got tired from all that training and went to the pub for St. Patrick's Day lol https://www.instagram.com/p/Bgbx88fAfw1/?hl=en

I do wonder why he's training though, if they don't have to compete until September or October. Hmm...
 

hanca

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I do wonder why he's training though, if they don't have to compete until September or October. Hmm...
He may not need to be in competition ready state, but I guess he needs to keep the muscless ready. Many elements require a male partner to use upper body muscles and without that they wouldn’t be able to start training when Ksenia is able to. It may be relatively fast to build up the stamina, but to build up muscles would take a long time, so it may be easier to keep the muscles working.
 

barbarafan

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He may not need to be in competition ready state, but I guess he needs to keep the muscless ready. Many elements require a male partner to use upper body muscles and without that they wouldn’t be able to start training when Ksenia is able to. It may be relatively fast to build up the stamina, but to build up muscles would take a long time, so it may be easier to keep the muscles working.

As well....he also has some kind of upper body problem seeing as this year they are not able to do triple twist. At first he just put his hands on her but she was landing it herself...very crashy and often on 2 feet. He obviously needed time off to heal and then has to strengthen and rebuild whatever was hurt. I am sure we will see good twist next year.
 

hanca

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As well....he also has some kind of upper body problem seeing as this year they are not able to do triple twist. At first he just put his hands on her but she was landing it herself...very crashy and often on 2 feet. He obviously needed time off to heal and then has to strengthen and rebuild whatever was hurt. I am sure we will see good twist next year.
That’s not a muscle problem. He had a shoulder injury and that is very hard to fix. Trankov alos had a shoulder injury at some stage, if I recall correctly. So it seems to be not that rare with pair males.
 

nimi

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That’s not a muscle problem. He had a shoulder injury and that is very hard to fix. Trankov alos had a shoulder injury at some stage, if I recall correctly. So it seems to be not that rare with pair males.
Didn't Klimov also have surgery (not sure whether it was shoulder related or abdominal or something else?) last summer, which made them lose training time when it came to twist & throws & lifts?
 

clairecloutier

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Hopefully we will now have a handful of USA teams that will qualify for 2 GP spots (after K&O win at 4CC and C&L bronze at 4 CC).

If the GP qualifying rules stay the same as in past years, the only pairs who automatically get 2 GP spots are those who place top 10 at Worlds. Pairs who don't place top 10 at Worlds, but are in the top 24 of World Standings or Season's-Best, generally qualify for 1 GP. Placements at 4CCs do not guarantee any GP spots. https://www.isu.org/docman-document...33-gp-general-announcement-2017-18-final/file

Of the U.S. teams, only the Knierims really have a chance at 2 guaranteed GPs, and that is only if they place top 10 at Worlds.

A number of other U.S. pairs may qualify for 1 guaranteed GP if they are still in the top 24 WS/SB lists after Worlds: Kayne/O'Shea (almost definite), Cain/LeDuc (probable), Liu/Johnson (on cusp, SB 24 currently), Denney/Frazier (on cusp, WS 20 currently), Castelli/Tran (on cusp, WS 21 currently).

Stellato/Bartholomay are currently not among the top 24 WS/SB, so they will be looking for strong performances at Worlds to perhaps pull up into the top 24 SB and get 1 guaranteed GP.

The good news is that, last year, most pairs who were only guaranteed 1 GP actually got 2 GPs in the initial selection.
 

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