Objectively speaking, who deserved to win the 2018 OGM?

Who deserved to win the 2018 Olympics?

  • Evgenia Medvedeva (Евгения Медведева)

  • Alina Zagitova (Алина Загитова)


Results are only viewable after voting.

VGThuy

Well-Known Member
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41,023
So I put my money where my mouth is and judged the event myself (or the Top 4 ladies anyway). www.skatingscores.com literally makes it SO easy to rejudge events. You just put in your GOE and PCS, and it does all the rest like magic. I think the feature where it will save all your scores in a competition and show how you ranked them is broken, so that's why the "rankings" will be wrong in my protocols.

SP

LP
Osmond https://twitter.com/pariapopulaire/status/1311255554283769857
Zagitova https://twitter.com/pariapopulaire/status/1311256765653225474
Miyahara https://twitter.com/pariapopulaire/status/1311257896722853889
Medvedeva https://twitter.com/pariapopulaire/status/1311262212540039168
Results https://twitter.com/pariapopulaire/status/1311263818463543297

Combined

Actual Scores

I did not get the result I was expecting.

As somebody who's been accused of not having the ability to be objective about my own fave, I admire the fact that you went back and watched it and judged it the way you saw it.
 

jenny12

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Messages
8,239
Evgenia’s schmacting is enough for some to cover up her severe flaws in terms of skating skills and jumps but at the end of the day, there was a reason she struggled so much when she moved to Brian Orser and it’s not because of Brian Orser.
 
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35
So I went back and rescored... and I got a very surprising result ;)

SP:
Kaetlyn Osmond, 82.63 total (43.83 tech, 38.80 PCS)
Satoko Miyahara, 79.34 total (32.54 tech, 36.80 PCS)
Kaori Sakamoto, 77.80 total (43.20 tech 34.60 PCS)
Alina Zagitova, 71.87 total (37.87 tech, 34.00 PCS)
Evgenia Medvedeva, 67.90 total ( 35.70 tech 33.10 PCS)

FS:
Satoko Miyahara, 156.24 total (79.04 tech, 77.20 PCS)
Kaori Sakamoto, 148.61 total (77.01 tech, 71.60 PCS)
Kaetlyn Osmond, 148.52 total (74.12 tech, 74.40 PCS)
Alina Zagitova, 145.41 total (75.01 tech, 70.40 PCS)
Evgenia Medvedeva, 139.33 (68.53 tech, 70.80 PCS)

TOTAL:
Satoko Miyahara, 235.58
Kaetlyn Osmond, 231.15
Kaori Sakamoto, 226.71
Alina Zagitova, 217.28
Evgenia Medevedeva, 207.23

I will not be accepting critique at this time :drama:
 

Sasha is DIVINE

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868
Judging skating is inherently subjective. So there is no objective answer to this or any judging question.

Do you agree that there are varying degrees of subjectively though? Because there's a huge difference between the marks I could have given and been in line and the lower marks I gave because I felt they were more accurate and objective (in regards to a skater I am favorably biased towards).
 
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Sasha is DIVINE

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868
Evgenia’s schmacting is enough for some to cover up her severe flaws in terms of skating skills and jumps but at the end of the day, there was a reason she struggled so much when she moved to Brian Orser and it’s not because of Brian Orser.

Well, I'm sure a lot of it was that water was no longer on the restricted list.
 

Sasha is DIVINE

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868
Come to think of it, why isn't Satoko Miyahara one of the poll choices? :wuzrobbed

Cause I was so heartbroken 💔 I hadn't watched any of the programs in 2 1/2 years and the Zhenya/Eteri reunion gave me the strength to relive it. I only included Zhenya and skaters who beat her 😂😂
 

Coco

Rotating while Russian!
Messages
18,568
From what I recall, one problem with the rules at the time of the 2018 Games is that you could earn enough bullet points for a +3 on a jump without superior height or speed or the traditional extended landing position. So, hypothetically, if two skaters did the exact same jump, same transitions in and out, same variation in body position, but one was a lot higher and faster, they could get the same GOE score.

This really put Osmund at a disadvantage, imo.

As we saw in the early years of IJS with Lambiel's spins, pure brilliance is not adequately rewarded or appropriately separated from the pack.

In theory, moving to +/- 5 for GOE has taken care of this, but of course it hasn't.
 

muffinplus

Well-Known Member
Messages
4,321
So I put my money where my mouth is and judged the event myself (or the Top 4 ladies anyway). www.skatingscores.com literally makes it SO easy to rejudge events. You just put in your GOE and PCS, and it does all the rest like magic. I think the feature where it will save all your scores in a competition and show how you ranked them is broken, so that's why the "rankings" will be wrong in my protocols.

SP

LP
Thoughts on Osmond https://twitter.com/pariapopulaire/status/1311255554283769857
Thoughts on Zagitova https://twitter.com/pariapopulaire/status/1311256765653225474
Thoughts on Miyahara https://twitter.com/pariapopulaire/status/1311257896722853889
Thoughts on Medvedeva https://twitter.com/pariapopulaire/status/1311262212540039168
Results https://twitter.com/pariapopulaire/status/1311263818463543297

Combined

Actual Scores

I did not get the result I was expecting.

Do you have a link to the page on skatingscores where one could plug in GOE and PCS for a past event?
 

Evgeniafan

Well-Known Member
Messages
389
I
So I put my money where my mouth is and judged the event myself (or the Top 4 ladies anyway). www.skatingscores.com literally makes it SO easy to rejudge events. You just put in your GOE and PCS, and it does all the rest like magic. I think the feature where it will save all your scores in a competition and show how you ranked them is broken, so that's why the "rankings" will be wrong in my protocols.

SP

LP
Thoughts on Osmond https://twitter.com/pariapopulaire/status/1311255554283769857
Thoughts on Zagitova https://twitter.com/pariapopulaire/status/1311256765653225474
Thoughts on Miyahara https://twitter.com/pariapopulaire/status/1311257896722853889
Thoughts on Medvedeva https://twitter.com/pariapopulaire/status/1311262212540039168
Results https://twitter.com/pariapopulaire/status/1311263818463543297

Combined

Actual Scores

I did not get the result I was expecting.
[/QUOT

I think Evgenia should have kept River Flows for the short program, can you use Worlds 2017 and insert those scores, to see if I'm correct.
 

tony

Throwing the (rule)book at them
Messages
17,698
From what I recall, one problem with the rules at the time of the 2018 Games is that you could earn enough bullet points for a +3 on a jump without superior height or speed or the traditional extended landing position. So, hypothetically, if two skaters did the exact same jump, same transitions in and out, same variation in body position, but one was a lot higher and faster, they could get the same GOE score.

This really put Osmund at a disadvantage, imo.

While I do agree that there were many different ways to get to +2 or +3, there are still criteria in place that are highly questionable such as 'matching the music'. But I do like the ISU change that certain criteria have to all be fulfilled in order to get above a +3.
But the tech panel did and can just avoid calling ! or e on one skater, and the judges still hand said skater (in 2018) +3's somehow ;)

As we saw in the early years of IJS with Lambiel's spins, pure brilliance is not adequately rewarded or appropriately separated from the pack.

People using Lambiel's spins is always :lol: a bit to me. His camel was pretty terrible (not stretched really at all, it traveled, his sit spin variations were extremely fast and creative but often traveled a significant amount as well, and he always did that headless scratch spin that, once again was creative, traveled and always looked borderline out of control. I think Chan hands down was a better spinner-- obviously not nearly as flashy.
 
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Sasha is DIVINE

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Messages
868
Do you have a link to the page on skatingscores where one could plug in GOE and PCS for a past event?


Here's the page for the 2018 Ladies Short Program. Just click the rescore link under the athlete you want to judge.

I think Evgenia should have kept River Flows for the short program, can you use Worlds 2017 and insert those scores, to see if I'm correct.

I'm not sure exactly what you're asking? Pretty sure her short program at the Olympics scored higher than her short program at 2017 Worlds?

At the Olympics, my scores had Medvedeva 3rd in the short, 1st in the long, and 1st overall. But with her 2017 short, I might have had her 1st in the short as well. I love that program.
 

kwanatic

Well-Known Member
Messages
2,759
Well nice to know my pointless rescoring has turned out to be useful. :D

Here were my SP results:

Osmond - 79.73 - 41.93 (TES) - 37.80 (PCS)
Zagitova - 79.57 - 44.37 (TES) - 35.20 (PCS)
Medvedeva - 77.20 - 41.00 (TES) - 36.20 (PCS)

I had Osmond as the clear winner in PCS in this segment. Her speed, power and flow were leaps and bounds above the other two and she had wonderful transitions as well in and out of every element. Flutz is acknowledged but none of the top 3 got edge calls so... The overall construction and presentation of that program was on a masterpiece level. Osmond earned 9.4 points in GOE, mostly +2s with two +3s. She should have won SP.

Zagitova's backloaded harder content was well-executed and her spins were the best positioned of the top 3. She also earned 9.4 points in GOE which, when added to her higher BV, gave her a solid edge in TES. She gave a better performance in the SP than I remembered which resulted in her PCS coming out higher than I thought I would have given her.

Next to the power and speed of Osmond's SP and the harder content of Zag's, Medvedeva's SP was weaker technically by comparison. Her jumps lacked the power and ease of the other two and she was on par with Osmond in terms of spins. She did a lovely job performing her program though. 7.9 points in GOE.

FS results:

Medvedeva - 150.63 - 76.63 (TES) - 74.00 (PCS)
Zagitova - 150.11 - 79.31 (TES) - 70.80 (PCS)
Osmond - 148.72 - 74.72 (TES) - 74.00 (PCS)

Medvedeva had the strongest overall performance for me and squeaks out the win in this segment. I thought she expressed her program beautifully and was fully engaged and in character the whole time. Her performance gave her PCS a boost in PE, IN and CH and even SS--she looked faster and freer around the ice compared to her SP. Med was solid technically though, again, her jumps were the weakest of the 3. She earned 14.3 points in GOE, mostly +2s and one +3 for her step seq.

Zagitova's backloaded program gave her the edge in terms TES though she loses out to the other two in PCS. She earned the highest TR score (9.25) but was last in all other categories but still scored very well (SS - 8.5, PE - 9.0, IN/CH - 8.75). All of her bonus jumps earned +2 except her final axel (+1) and her spins ranged from +2 to +3. She earned 13.3 points in GOE.

Osmond's program didn't land with the same emotional impact as I felt from Med's program. It was a beautifully constructed program that she performed very well, but she didn't have that same confidence and power that made the SP sparkle. Aside from the step out on the lutz, the jumps were stunning (ease, speed, height, ride out), spins strong, steps strong. Definitely her best performance. She earned 12.6 points in GOE.

Final Scores:

Zagitova - 229.68
Osmond - 228.45
Medvedeva - 227.45

For me the scores are all right on top of each other. Zagitova edges out Osmond who edges out Medvedeva. Interestingly enough had Osmond not messed up her lutz, she'd have won in my scoring (228.45 + 1.4 (GOE lost) + 1.0 (positive GOE for cleanly executed jump) = 230.85. It should have been a closer race than it was.

Objectively I don't feel Osmond received the scores she deserved. Her SS should have been 0.50-1.0 point higher than the other two--she was far superior in that category. Her transitions were strong and on par with Med's--Zag gets the win in that category. Osmond's PE, IN and CH should have been tops in the SP and maybe 2nd in the FS. Zag gets the edge in spins but I'd put Osmond equal with Med in that category. Her total BV was significantly less than Zag's (6.33 points) but only 0.78 less than Med's which, when you factor in the comparison of quality in both of their jumps/spins/steps, the edge should have gone to Osmond.

When you look at it objectively in a head-to-head comparison, Osmond definitely had a rock solid case for silver against Medvedeva. It's also possible with a wider range of scores she could have edged out Alina for gold.

Just my 2 cents...
 
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Marco

Well-Known Member
Messages
15,268
My rescore -

Osmond SP: 78.33 (41.93 / 36.40)
Miyahara SP: 77.34 (41.34 / 36.00)
Zagitova SP: 73.27 (41.27 / 32.00)
Medvedeva SP: 70.30 (37.90 / 32.40)

Miyahara FS: 149.14 (75.94 / 73.20)
Osmond FS: 149.12 (75.92 / 73.20)
Zagitova FS: 141.11 (76.71 / 64.40)
Medvedeva FS: 134.63 (69.03 / 65.60)

My podium is

G: Osmond
S: Miyahara
B: Zagitova

My GOEs for Osmond were very high except for the lutz mistake. My PCS for her was in the 9s.

My GOE for Miyahara's jumps were all +1s or below but I did give her very high GOEs for the sequences and spins. So I was surprised that the scores came out so high. My GOEs for Zagitova on jumps were a tad below those I gave for Osmond for reasons I have previously explained and her non-jump GOEs were also below those I gave to Miyahara. Watching all 4 back to back was a treat but also made me realize Medvedeva simply didn't deserve such high GOEs on her elements.

Objectively speaking, the top 2 Russians simply were not in the same class as Osmond and Miyahara on PCS.
 
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kwanatic

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2,759
Objectively speaking, the top 2 Russians simply were not in the same class as Osmond and Miyahara on PCS.

And unfortunately that's really the deciding factor when you look at a situation where everyone skates well. Both Alina and Evgenia were very overscored in PCS next to Kaetlyn and Satoko as well. I haven't rewatched Satoko's performances yet but I already know that she'd come out higher in PCS than either of the top two. The main area she loses out on is jump GOE. Everything else she does is near perfection.
 

Evgeniafan

Well-Known Member
Messages
389
Just a reminder that edge calls and underrotations should be called. Evgenia does not do a lutz in the short program. And Alina underrotated her salchow in the free program.
 

Evgeniafan

Well-Known Member
Messages
389
Well nice to know my pointless rescoring has turned out to be useful. :D

Here were my SP results:

Osmond - 79.73 - 41.93 (TES) - 37.80 (PCS)
Zagitova - 79.57 - 44.37 (TES) - 35.20 (PCS)
Medvedeva - 77.20 - 41.00 (TES) - 36.20 (PCS)

I had Osmond as the clear winner in PCS in this segment. Her speed, power and flow were leaps and bounds above the other two and she had wonderful transitions as well in and out of every element. Flutz is acknowledged but none of the top 3 got edge calls so... The overall construction and presentation of that program was on a masterpiece level. Osmond earned 9.4 points in GOE, mostly +2s with two +3s. She should have won SP.

Zagitova's backloaded harder content was well-executed and her spins were the best positioned of the top 3. She also earned 9.4 points in GOE which, when added to her higher BV, gave her a solid edge in TES. She gave a better performance in the SP than I remembered which resulted in her PCS coming out higher than I thought I would have given her.

Next to the power and speed of Osmond's SP and the harder content of Zag's, Medvedeva's SP was weaker technically by comparison. Her jumps lacked the power and ease of the other two and she was on par with Osmond in terms of spins. She did a lovely job performing her program though. 7.9 points in GOE.

FS results:

Medvedeva - 150.63 - 76.63 (TES) - 74.00 (PCS)
Zagitova - 150.11 - 79.31 (TES) - 70.80 (PCS)
Osmond - 148.72 - 74.72 (TES) - 74.00 (PCS)

Medvedeva had the strongest overall performance for me and squeaks out the win in this segment. I thought she expressed her program beautifully and was fully engaged and in character the whole time. Her performance gave her PCS a boost in PE, IN and CH and even SS--she looked faster and freer around the ice compared to her SP. Med was solid technically though, again, her jumps were the weakest of the 3. She earned 14.3 points in GOE, mostly +2s and one +3 for her step seq.

Zagitova's backloaded program gave her the edge in terms TES though she loses out to the other two in PCS. She earned the highest TR score (9.25) but was last in all other categories but still scored very well (SS - 8.5, PE - 9.0, IN/CH - 8.75). All of her bonus jumps earned +2 except her final axel (+1) and her spins ranged from +2 to +3. She earned 13.3 points in GOE.

Osmond's program didn't land with the same emotional impact as I felt from Med's program. It was a beautifully constructed program that she performed very well, but she didn't have that same confidence and power that made the SP sparkle. Aside from the step out on the lutz, the jumps were stunning (ease, speed, height, ride out), spins strong, steps strong. Definitely her best performance. She earned 12.6 points in GOE.

Final Scores:

Zagitova - 229.68
Osmond - 228.45
Medvedeva - 227.45

For me the scores are all right on top of each other. Zagitova edges out Osmond who edges out Medvedeva. Interestingly enough had Osmond not messed up her lutz, she'd have won in my scoring (228.45 + 1.4 (GOE lost) + 1.0 (positive GOE for cleanly executed jump) = 230.85. It should have been a closer race than it was.

Objectively I don't feel Osmond received the scores she deserved. Her SS should have been 0.50-1.0 point higher than the other two--she was far superior in that category. Her transitions were strong and on par with Med's--Zag gets the win in that category. Osmond's PE, IN and CH should have been tops in the SP and maybe 2nd in the FS. Zag gets the edge in spins but I'd put Osmond equal with Med in that category. Her total BV was significantly less than Zag's (6.33 points) but only 0.78 less than Med's which, when you factor in the comparison of quality in both of their jumps/spins/steps, the edge should have gone to Osmond.

When you look at it objectively in a head-to-head comparison, Osmond definitely had a rock solid case for silver against Medvedeva. It's also possible with a wider range of scores she could have edged out Alina for gold.

Just my 2 cents...



Evgenia does not have a lutz in the short so there would not be an edge call for her, only Osmond.
 

tony

Throwing the (rule)book at them
Messages
17,698
Just a reminder that edge calls and underrotations should be called. Evgenia does not do a lutz in the short program. And Alina underrotated her salchow in the free program.

Well, if we are going there then I am 💯 that Medvedeva’s Lutz should’ve been called in the LP- an e, not even an !. I mean +3 from some judges? Please. Also, since you picked up on a UR, please check Medvedeva’s landing on the 3T in her first 3+3 ;)
 

Coco

Rotating while Russian!
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18,568
For me, there is the issue of what should the marks be, but there is also the issue of what the skater's reasonable expectations are, too.

If a skater does things a certain way for two years, and gets heaps of high PCS from the judges, it seems unsporting for the judges to suddenly revise their view of the skater's PCS at a major championship. I'm not saying they have to place them first because they've been first in the past, but it is mystifying to see fluctuations in a skater's components when there is little change to their program or their delivery of it. Equally mystifying are the lack of fluctuations when they skate significantly slower, take out choreo, misses musical cues, shows significantly less extension/control, less emotional engagement, etc.

The application of the components side of this scoring system is beyond frustrating.
 

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