NBC Sports: Female Russian skaters stars rise fast, but burn out too soon

[reut]

I think the article headline (and this thread title) doesn't accurately reflect what Berlot actually wrote in his opinion piece/analysis which I found to be fairly balanced overall.

Berlot has been freelancing for NBC Sports' 'Olympic Talk (since Icenetwork.com is no more) and I'm pretty sure he wasn't responsible for the (clickbait-ish) headline.

I don't have any problem with the headline, I think it states the fact.
And this piece is balanced, I agree. But he is really, super nice person, super-super nice and kind, so even this level of "strictness" in his article was a surprise for me (I'm his big fan, btw, as a journalist and as a person, I am lucky to know him personally).

Interesting enough, now, when US have their own "jumping wonder child", opinion of the media changes, like in this recent article (linked by Lynn Rutherford):
https://deadspin.com/does-figure-skating-really-need-age-minimums-1832204461

 

[GreatLakesGal]

Interesting enough, now, when US have their own "jumping wonder child", opinion of the media changes, like in this recent article (linked by Lynn Rutherford):
https://deadspin.com/does-figure-skating-really-need-age-minimums-1832204461

Be sure to read the reader comments under this article; many are from former skaters and they are really pissed at the author.

 

[Deleted member 40371]

I don't have any problem with the headline, I think it states the fact.
And this piece is balanced, I agree. But he is really, super nice person, super-super nice and kind, so even this level of "strictness" in his article was a surprise for me (I'm his big fan, btw, as a journalist and as a person, I am lucky to know him personally).

Interesting enough, now, when US have their own "jumping wonder child", opinion of the media changes, like in this recent article (linked by Lynn Rutherford):
https://deadspin.com/does-figure-skating-really-need-age-minimums-1832204461

Exactly, few months ago it was all about how jumping 3 axel and quads are so damaging for 14 and 15 year olds body. Now, the tone is so different, how unfair it is for young girls.

 

[Jammers]

One of my favorite parts of longevity is seeing what skaters become as they mature. Some skaters have early success, struggle, have an injury, or hit a wall in their late teens/early 20s for whatever reason, and then develop into the best version of themselves at a later date: Ashley, Carolina, James/Cipres, Virtue/Moir, Deanna Stellato, etc. etc. There's also plenty of other skaters who are doing that right now: Bradie, Evgenia, and Jason are doing that right now.

What saddens me about the Russian ladies (or at least the ones from Eteri) is that we'll probably never see that best version. They train in a way that seems to produce short careers as opposed to one that encourages growth and development. And they probably don't know that - but it's often too late to fix much by the time they realize they want to keep competing or skating, if they even want to after all that intensive training. I guess it's a bit overdramatic, but sometimes it feels like the adults are taking a potential future in skating away from these girls for the sake of their own short-term success.

Not sure why V/M were included in this group. They were at or near the top when they were still teens for nearly a decade and never really struggled or hit a wall like those other skaters did.

 

[reut]

Be sure to read the reader comments under this article; many are from former skaters and they are really pissed at the author.

I usually don't read comments, but I saw some reactions to Lynn's tweet in which she shared the link.

 

[Yazmeen]

I agree with the article to a large extent. Russia prizes results, and when you aren't getting the medals, then you no longer matter. I'm no fan of Zagitova, but my heart hurts for her this year. You can tell she's stressed to hell and back, and I wouldn't be surprised to see her fade into obscurity if she doesn't win or at least medal at Worlds.

 

[Rock2]

Meh, other countries including the US have the same issue. The difference with Russia is the sheer volume of talent and therefore consequently the public cases of burnout as they call it.

No matter where you come from your longevity comes from ability to stay healthy, training habits (including off ice, proper diet and rest), degree of body change and base technique that you learn. These factors either conspire against you as you mature or they end up being easier to overcome and adapt to.

It's all case by case basis. Having said that, Eteri does tend to teach a jumping technique that is more successful in bodies that are lighter and with shorter limbs. She'll need to decide if she wants to adapt or keep the turnstyles moving, replacing her top athletes every 2-3 years. If she keeps delivering medals with whomever, it's entirely her call.

 

[Tinami Amori]

Having said that, Eteri does tend to teach a jumping technique that is more successful in bodies that are lighter and with shorter limbs.

I am pretty sure it is Dudakov who is a tech coach on the team...

I'm no fan of Zagitova, but my heart hurts for her this year.

Zagitova's issues this year - a) are not worst than "adult, north-american coached, etc.." Gold's, Daleman's, Wagner's, and few others with injuries and other issues; b) still holds a score record for this season, and 1st and 2nd places in all competitions.

For a number of personal reasons, many people and certain media chose to present Zagitova's case as "glass is half empty" with pessimism, and for other "favored skaters" with much worst problems as "glass is half-full" full of optimism.

If "puberty", "growth", "post olympic season" are the standard explanations for many female (and not just) skaters' down periods, then it is applicable to Zagitova as well.

On top of that she is facing unprecedented bullying by media, skating personalities (both russian and north american), and fans for a) winning from Medvedeva; b) being part of Tutberidze's evil team; c) and various combinations of facts and issues that are a "fish bone in some throats"..

Zagitova is certainly less stable this season, but she is still has the 2nd best BOW in scores and placements this season so far.. Her heart does not hurt as much as yours I am sure..

She well enough to be harassing Daniil on the flight back...
https://www.instagram.com/p/BtSLxHHnpZt/

.. and Eteri is carrying her bears....
https://www.instagram.com/p/BtNi5VtHor8/

 

[Rock2]

I will also add -- and there have been some comments headed in this direction -- that the lack of longevity is bad for the sport.

Factor us skating nerds out of the equation. We're attracted to not only the participants but also the sport in general. The general audiences have definite interest in the sport at large but are mostly star-driven. This is the case for many sports including pro.

I wouldn't be surprised if 75% of a TV audience is influenced into watching simply by WHO is competing. If they don't recognize the names of people they have grown attached to over several years, their chances of watching dramatically drop. THESE are the people the sport needs to engage to drive numbers up and $$ into the sport as they are fence-sitters to a degree. A regular churn of 'stars' is counter-productive to maintaining and growing audiences IMHO.

 

[Rock2]

I am pretty sure it is Dudakov who is a tech coach on the team...

Fine. It's her camp so everything/everyone is included when she's named. Until she and Dudakov have a Zoueva/Shpilband parting of the ways it's one happy family.

 

[Wyliefan]

It's all case by case basis. Having said that, Eteri does tend to teach a jumping technique that is more successful in bodies that are lighter and with shorter limbs. She'll need to decide if she wants to adapt or keep the turnstyles moving, replacing her top athletes every 2-3 years. If she keeps delivering medals with whomever, it's entirely her call.

That's all fine and dandy, but if Alina skates at Worlds the way she's been skating, there's a good chance she won't even be on the podium, making it the second year in a row with no Eteri/Dudakov students getting world medals. And it's certainly not for lack of talent or determination on Alina's part.

At some point Russia has to ask itself why, while its juniors are taking the world by storm, its seniors keep imploding.

 

[briancoogaert]

It's not a problem of longevity. The problem of their very short careers is that they didn't want to have short careers ! This is so sad when you do very hard stuffs (too much, IMO) at a very young age, and when you cannot anymore just two years later.

 

[Tinami Amori]

It's not a problem of longevity. The problem of their very short careers is that they didn't want to have short careers ! This is so sad when you do very hard stuffs (too much, IMO) at a very young age, and when you cannot anymore just two years later.

Who exactly "wanted to have long careers but could not" for reasons other than "them-selves" or "biologically natural"?

Pogo (with Tsareva) skated well into adulthood, developed back problems, without quads or 3A, and then chose family over skating.

Sotnikova after Olys had a very standard to all skaters injury, and then got sucked into "socializing" more than into "skating"..

Lipnitskaya continued for 2 more years (with another coach), she was full of "issues" other than "health and skating", could not compete, and was tired of skating and media all together.

Radionova made some wrong choices in her coaching and skating, and simply could not compete..

None of it had to do with "quads" or "3A" or too young too much....

And as to the "new sensations".... Zag, Med are still skating.. and 4 Eteri's jr. girls are just starting .... No one is quitting in that neck of the woods....

Back in the 70's and 80's i am quite sure many girls quite because they could not transfer from doubles and do "6 triples" in a LP..

 

[her grace]

I agree with the article to a large extent. Russia prizes results, and when you aren't getting the medals, then you no longer matter.

But Russia doesn’t discard its skaters with lesser results. Leonova is still supported and sent to GPs. Tuk was up, then down, and is now back up again. Konstantinova bombed worlds and was still chosen for Euros this season. Yeah, you won’t get sent to worlds if you don’t stay in the Russian age-eligible top three, but so far, Russia has a pretty good track record of helping its skaters continue their careers until they want to stop.

 

[Finsta]

I feel longevity is important. I feel both Medvedeva and Zagitova feel same. Medvedeva has said so and Zagitova also. Use the argument skaters don’t Owe fans, but without fans who are they? I know many that get bored with one Russian wins and is gone next season. Fans are starting to not care about skaters as individuals, because skaters are becoming one and done. It’s bad for the sport.

 

[her grace]

If longevity is the concern, then getting rid of the 3 per country limit would do more to keep top names in the big competitions than changing the age limits.

 

[IloveFS]

Let's wait and see what happens with all of these "teenage" sensations!!! Is NBC also saying the Liu is going to burnout??? With the pressure on these young athletes, do they really need to read that someone at NBC thinks that they are going to just burnout???? Shame on NBC!!!!

 

[rfisher]

One of my favorite parts of longevity is seeing what skaters become as they mature. Some skaters have early success, struggle, have an injury, or hit a wall in their late teens/early 20s for whatever reason, and then develop into the best version of themselves at a later date: Ashley, Carolina, James/Cipres, Virtue/Moir, Deanna Stellato, etc. etc. There's also plenty of other skaters who are doing that right now: Bradie, Evgenia, and Jason are doing that right now.

What saddens me about the Russian ladies (or at least the ones from Eteri) is that we'll probably never see that best version. They train in a way that seems to produce short careers as opposed to one that encourages growth and development. And they probably don't know that - but it's often too late to fix much by the time they realize they want to keep competing or skating, if they even want to after all that intensive training. I guess it's a bit overdramatic, but sometimes it feels like the adults are taking a potential future in skating away from these girls for the sake of their own short-term success.

The biggest "problem" is there are so many talented young Russian skaters. There are only 3 spots at Euros, Worlds or the Olympics. The only countries where you see long term skaters are those that there aren't any younger high quality skaters to push them out. There's no way Kostner would have had the opportunity to develop if she'd skated for current Russia rather than Italy. She's still the best Italy has. Fumie stayed around for a long time in Japan, until the Japanese started producing talented juniors. So, blaming the coach is not the issue. Russia gives funding to the top 5 at nationals. Most of the skaters depend on that funding as their parents aren't funding their skating like in the US. So, by default, the top skaters will be funded as long as they are on the top. As long as there are plenty of 12 year olds pushing the envelope to compete for those top 3 spots, there will be turnover. Everybody seems to ignore that fundamental issue. Brezinova can be national champion multiple times in the Czech Republic. She wouldn't make it out of the Russian cup series in Russia. She gets longevity. The Russians don't.

 

[MacMadame]

True. But at what cost? Does Zagitova look happy to you?

Zagitova is growing. She's be growing whether she was OGM or not. Do you really think she'd be happier struggling this season if she never had a great season like last year? I don't think she would.

Be sure to read the reader comments under this article; many are from former skaters and they are really pissed at the author.

Never read the comments!! (Not if you want to stay sane)

 

[gkelly]

Back in the 70's and 80's i am quite sure many girls quite because they could not transfer from doubles and do "6 triples" in a LP..

In the 1970s and 80s, it was not necessary to do 6 triples in a LP. You could count on your fingers the number of women who ever did during those years . . . and that includes Zayak before the Zayak rule. Hardly anyone who had at least 4 different kinds of consistent triples. . . . And on average the best jumpers were younger and were held back compared to the medalists by weaker school figures.

Now, if you were talking 1990s, then yes, once figures were gone it became important to do all the triples. Some figures-era skaters couldn't make the transition, even if they were still young enough to have aimed for medals under the old rules.

And of course there were always promising young skaters with multiple triples in their early teens who then lost jumping ability to injuries and natural body changes as they got older. Or who never mastered triples at all when they got to junior and especially senior level and would have needed at least some to be competitive.

 

[Willin]

Not sure why V/M were included in this group. They were at or near the top when they were still teens for nearly a decade and never really struggled or hit a wall like those other skaters did.

I don't think their wall was as obvious, but it was talked about: after a cycle of being the best D/W took over that top spot in the discipline. During that time people were talking about how V/M didn't have as good choreography or were being ignored in favor of D/W. So while it didn't appear to be so in competition as much as the other skaters I've listed, there was apparently a challenge they ran into.

 

[briancoogaert]

Zagitova is growing. She's be growing whether she was OGM or not. Do you really think she'd be happier struggling this season if she never had a great season like last year? I don't think she would.

The problem is that they try too hard stuff without having a strong ossature.
So, the body changes are even more painful to them.

On a psychological side, I'm not sure I'd be happier to struggle at 16, with an Olympic gold medal at 15. And in fact, I'm sure it's harder when you had won everything at such a young age.

 

[IceAlisa]

Longevity is purely a product of the skaters commitment to skating. Many simply move on to other things. How can you attach a value of better or worse to someone who started serious skating at a very young age, competes through their teen years and then decides they want to go to college, get other jobs, have families or just not skate any longer? Many who stay don't know what else to do with their lives apart from skating. Which is fine. It's also fine if they want to do other things. And, if you add Tara and Oksana's pro career, it lasted quite a while. Sarah Hughes went on to college and did other things.

Because sometimes the decision to move on is made for them. For instance they were taught shoddy jump technique that worked when they were a string bean but failed when they became a woman. So they are faced with a choice: revamp your technique, start from scratch (see Med) or fade away (see any other Tutberidze student.)

I personally enjoy watching the evolution of a skater. Look at Hanyu. He was great in Sochi but how good were his following four years for him and for his fans? Incidentally, that’s Tutberidze’s dream student.

 

[IceAlisa]

I think the same concern applies to Alysa Liu. She comes to a virtually complete stop before take off in her 3a, not to mention the prerotation. She also has a flutz.
I don’t know how these jumps will survive puberty TBH.

I DO NOT have the same concern when it comes to Rika Kihira because Mie Hamada teaches sound jump tech. Same for Kostornaia, unless her current coaching team messes with her jump tech which they seem to be smart enough not to do.

 

[Japanfan]

I don't think their wall was as obvious, but it was talked about: after a cycle of being the best D/W took over that top spot in the discipline. During that time people were talking about how V/M didn't have as good choreography or were being ignored in favor of D/W. So while it didn't appear to be so in competition as much as the other skaters I've listed, there was apparently a challenge they ran into.

The way I saw it, Zoueva wanted both teams to have their share of titles and for each to have an OGM. IMO she gave V/M the winning free skate at the 2010 Olympics, D/W the winning free in 2014.

The two teams were equals essentially, IMO, and at the same time, in a league of their own.

 

[rfisher]

Because sometimes the decision to move on is made for them. For instance they were taught shoddy jump technique that worked when they were a string bean but failed when they became a woman. So they are faced with a choice: revamp your technique, start from scratch (see Med) or fade away (see any other Tutberidze student.)

I personally enjoy watching the evolution of a skater. Look at Hanyu. He was great in Sochi but how good were his following four years for him and for his fans? Incidentally, that’s Tutberidze’s dream student.

Hanyu is also fortunate that there is very little depth in the Japanese men. Apart from Uno, there hasn't been any skater to take his place. That makes a huge difference

 

[IceAlisa]

Hanyu is also fortunate that there is very little depth in the Japanese men. Apart from Uno, there hasn't been any skater to take his place. That makes a huge difference

I think he would excel no matter what competition he had at home or internationally.

 

[IceAlisa]

Regarding Kostornaia 3a: I just read in an interview with Alexander Volkov, Trusova’s ex-coach, that Alena has taken a few bad falls doing them and decided that her health was more important. So her 3a has been shelved for now

 

[dee342]

I think the same concern applies to Alysa Liu. She comes to a virtually complete stop before take off in her 3a, not to mention the prerotation. She also has a flutz.
I don’t know how these jumps will survive puberty TBH.

I DO NOT have the same concern when it comes to Rika Kihira because Mie Hamada teaches sound jump tech. Same for Kostornaia, unless her current coaching team messes with her jump tech which they seem to be smart enough not to do.

Are the judges taking off for the flutz and the prerotation? Would that be reflected in the TES or PCS marks?

 

[giselle23]

Are the judges taking off for the flutz and the prerotation? Would that be reflected in the TES or PCS marks?

Flutzes are penalized in TES (if called). Prerotations are not penalized.