Music rights clearance issues (policy being implemented by the ISU starting in 2024)

But there have been a fair number of skaters since his death that have skated to Prince at the Olympics since his death.

It's not like it's a 0% chance it will work. Maybe it's song to song?
 
Or, Skate Canada told Les Gacs that they needed a firm clearance FROM the estate in order to use it at the Olympics. Seems logical to think that federation with a skater in recent memory ran into issues with a composer NOT giving clearance (Kevin Reynolds) may take a stricter stance on music clearances than a smaller federation that hasn't ever had that problem.
 
ginsengtea said:
Maya B said on her podcast that some federations are much stricter about music rights than others, with Canada probably being the strictest. Some federations apparently weren’t planning to deal with it at all (until they're forced to, I presume).
Click to expand...

That may also explain the drama around Schizas's Lion King when others were using it, and how she ultimately ended up being able to use it.

This is all a complicated mess that needs consistent sorting.
 
MacMadame said:
I have never, ever bought music because someone skated to it. 🤷
Click to expand...
I have! Zoe Keating (Jonathan CASSAR) and Loreena McKennit (Michelle Kwan's Dante's Prayer) are the two that immediately come to my mind, there might be more.
Willin said:
Prince was really stingy about rights when he was alive, but his estate has not cared at all. I'm not surprised he had no issues.
Click to expand...
Prince was rabid about it due to personal opinions on artistic integrity. For his estate, it's revenue.

I know I've told the story here of the Seattle dance company that negotiated with the Hendrix estate to use his music after they finally got the rights back, only to discover days before a huge showcase that the family had granted the rights only for the original run of performances. The company was only allowed to use the Hendrix live covers of other artists' work. They performed the rest of it in silence, which was incredible in its own way.
 
Re the differencing policies of the various federations, I read somewhere (I'll see if I can find the article) that because international copyright law is not at all straightforward (and works somewhat on precedent), it's theoretically possible that a music rights holder could make a legal claim that music used for a skating/gymnastics/artistic swimming program that is broadcast/streamed for the Olympics on multiple platforms & replays does indeed requite "sync" licensing and not just performance rights. If such a lawsuit ever came about, it's not exactly clear what the eventual outcome would be.
 
Sandra Bezic has multiple posts on X today about the complex music clearance process & related issues - have copied them all out below:

An oversimplified explanation - re music clearance.
If a track is registered on a performance rights organization (PRO) such as ASCAP or BMI, Socan in Canada - every country had their own - It’s automatically cleared for LIVE event use, and the LIVE broadcast of that event. 1/

… Because the producer of the live event pays a blanket fee to the PRO for the event.
This explains why lawsuits have been rare over the decades of skating events.
Live events, and the broadcasting of those, have always complied with music copyright laws. 2/

The track can be registered to any PRO, not necessarily in the country of the live Event.
This is a generalization. There are caveats.
The danger zone is that some copyright holders do not register their tracks to a PRO. Hence the rare lawsuit. 3/

The laws are different for recorded events and commercial use, such as TV specials or series like Battle of the Blades, or anything aired after the fact. (with caveats)
The IOC is requiring commercial clearance as a reaction to those few lawsuits. Herein lies the problem. 4/

[Bolded by me] This is a complicated and sometimes expensive process that skaters, parents, coaches, choreographers are not equipped to handle. A professional well adept with the laws and procedures should be clearing music. 5/

On occasion, a skater can get lucky through direct contact with an artist - that is if the artist actually holds all the copyrights.
Prince’s Kiss (I think) ) is registered on ASCAP. Therefore, it’s legal to use from the music industry’s POV for a LIVE event.. 6/

ETA to add that, later, Bezic quoted this reply to what she wrote above: I'm pretty sure the song [Prince's "Kiss"] has been used for exhibition programs before
[Bezic's reply:] Yes it has - but a caution - over the years tracks not registered on a PRO have slipped through on the blanket coverage. Now there is more awareness and scrutiny.

However, typically Prince, now the estate, almost always denies commercial use. So if you try to actually clear his music you’ll likely get a denial.
Therefore, a track may be legal for the live event use, but unclearable for commercial use. 7/

Also one track from an artist may be registered to a PRO while another isn’t.
It is always the copyright holder’s right to deny, or pull approval, even if they’re registered to a PRO , if they don’t like how their music is being used - such as at a political rally. 8/

It is important for artists and copyright owners to maintain control and also profit from their creativity - which is why the PROs were created. It’s also important that we respect their rights.
Music copyright is so complex and this is a simplified explanation. 9/9

More:

When you clear music for commercial use - track by track must be cleared for each country it will be aired in. This is why most TV shows do not cross borders. It’s simply too expensive.

And then there’s editing… and there’s Grand Rights. Two more complicated layers to add to commercial music copyright laws.

Editing - music registered on a PRO - allows for edits “within reason” such as shortening to time, building an ending etc. This is expected. Commercially - a complicated layered edit usually requires the copyright holders to sign off.
I would not use ClicknClear.

In reply to "Sandra said the track is fine for a live performance. He didn’t edit it. He just played the song he owns and skated to it. He’ll [A. Selevko] be fine.":
I THINK - I don’t know for sure. But if you go to http://songview.com you can check. Hunting down a track to see if it’s registered is also a challenge. They may not be posted on the site. If it’s not there, it could still be register. At that point use a professional 1/

It may be legal from the music industry’s POV but not the IOC’s if they are asking for commercial clearance. Which is the IOC’s right I suppose. In my world it’s the producer’s responsibility to clear with a PRO blanket fee for a live event or full commercial use for taped. 2/2

Finally (for today) it has been my experience that artists are usually thrilled their music is being used for skating. (They don’t always hold all copyrights). The artists who decline usually make that choice on principle, and that is to be respected. There are few “bad guys”.

Lastly (replying to a long question) here: https://x.com/SandraBezic/status/2021621432397295892
An artist might share the stem files - the separate tracks - and give permission to use as skaters wish, or the skater might have new parts written and recorded. That could get problematic without permission if it is too layered or intermixed with original track.

One more note - my experience producing TV productions requiring music clearance has been in North America. I’m sharing what I understand from this practical experience only.
 
Last edited:
Sylvia said:
Sandra Bezic has multiple posts on X today about the complex music clearance process & related issues - have copied them all out below:

An oversimplified explanation - re music clearance.
If a track is registered on a performance rights organization (PRO) such as ASCAP or BMI, Socan in Canada - every country had their own - It’s automatically cleared for LIVE event use, and the LIVE broadcast of that event. 1/

… Because the producer of the live event pays a blanket fee to the PRO for the event.
This explains why lawsuits have been rare over the decades of skating events.
Live events, and the broadcasting of those, have always complied with music copyright laws. 2/

The track can be registered to any PRO, not necessarily in the country of the live Event.
This is a generalization. There are caveats.
The danger zone is that some copyright holders do not register their tracks to a PRO. Hence the rare lawsuit. 3/

The laws are different for recorded events and commercial use, such as TV specials or series like Battle of the Blades, or anything aired after the fact. (with caveats)
The IOC is requiring commercial clearance as a reaction to those few lawsuits. Herein lies the problem. 4/

[Bolded by me] This is a complicated and sometimes expensive process that skaters, parents, coaches, choreographers are not equipped to handle. A professional well adept with the laws and procedures should be clearing music. 5/

On occasion, a skater can get lucky through direct contact with an artist - that is if the artist actually holds all the copyrights.
Prince’s Kiss (I think) ) is registered on ASCAP. Therefore, it’s legal to use from the music industry’s POV for a LIVE event.. 6/

ETA to add that, later, Bezic quoted this reply to what she wrote above: I'm pretty sure the song [Prince's "Kiss"] has been used for exhibition programs before
[Bezic's reply:] Yes it has - but a caution - over the years tracks not registered on a PRO have slipped through on the blanket coverage. Now there is more awareness and scrutiny.

However, typically Prince, now the estate, almost always denies commercial use. So if you try to actually clear his music you’ll likely get a denial.
Therefore, a track may be legal for the live event use, but unclearable for commercial use. 7/

Also one track from an artist may be registered to a PRO while another isn’t.
It is always the copyright holder’s right to deny, or pull approval, even if they’re registered to a PRO , if they don’t like how their music is being used - such as at a political rally. 8/

It is important for artists and copyright owners to maintain control and also profit from their creativity - which is why the PROs were created. It’s also important that we respect their rights.
Music copyright is so complex and this is a simplified explanation. 9/9

More:

When you clear music for commercial use - track by track must be cleared for each country it will be aired in. This is why most TV shows do not cross borders. It’s simply too expensive.

And then there’s editing… and there’s Grand Rights. Two more complicated layers to add to commercial music copyright laws.

Editing - music registered on a PRO - allows for edits “within reason” such as shortening to time, building an ending etc. This is expected. Commercially - a complicated layered edit usually requires the copyright holders to sign off.
I would not use ClicknClear.

In reply to "Sandra said the track is fine for a live performance. He didn’t edit it. He just played the song he owns and skated to it. He’ll [A. Selevko] be fine.":
I THINK - I don’t know for sure. But if you go to http://songview.com you can check. Hunting down a track to see if it’s registered is also a challenge. They may not be posted on the site. If it’s not there, it could still be register. At that point use a professional 1/

It may be legal from the music industry’s POV but not the IOC’s if they are asking for commercial clearance. Which is the IOC’s right I suppose. In my world it’s the producer’s responsibility to clear with a PRO blanket fee for a live event or full commercial use for taped. 2/2

Finally (for today) it has been my experience that artists are usually thrilled their music is being used for skating. (They don’t always hold all copyrights). The artists who decline usually make that choice on principle, and that is to be respected. There are few “bad guys”.

Lastly (replying to a long question) here: https://x.com/SandraBezic/status/2021621432397295892
An artist might share the stem files - the separate tracks - and give permission to use as skaters wish, or the skater might have new parts written and recorded. That could get problematic without permission if it is too layered or intermixed with original track.

One more note - my experience producing TV productions requiring music clearance has been in North America. I’m sharing what I understand from this practical experience only.
Click to expand...
Thank you Sylvia. This has clarified for me why NBC/Peacock removes the figure skating broadcasts so quickly after the event. At some point it ceases to be a "live" event and becomes an "after the fact" or a "recorded event".

I'm guessing the use of professional experts will become widespread in the future. Interesting that she doesn't recommend "Click and Clear"
 
ginsengtea said:
Maya B said on her podcast that some federations are much stricter about music rights than others, with Canada probably being the strictest. Some federations apparently weren’t planning to deal with it at all (until they're forced to, I presume).
Click to expand...
And that might be why LaLa changed the the "Thunderstruck" portion of their RD and Mrazeks didn't.
 
Sylvia said:
When you clear music for commercial use - track by track must be cleared for each country it will be aired in. This is why most TV shows do not cross borders. It’s simply too expensive.
Click to expand...
Quite good, but that’s a weird sentence considering pretty much all tv shows on streaming platforms constantly cross borders (and the ones on traditional linear tv do to and always have ) :huh: It’s not like Glitter & Gold is only on Netflix US and Heated Rivalry is only in Canada and nobody outside the US has ever been able to see Grey’s Anatomy, because there’s some sappy music in the background.
 
Miezekatze said:
Quite good, but that’s a weird sentence considering pretty much all tv shows on streaming platforms constantly cross borders (and the ones on traditional linear tv do to and always have ) :huh: It’s not like Glitter & Gold is only on Netflix US and Heated Rivalry is only in Canada and nobody outside the US has ever been able to see Grey’s Anatomy, because there’s some sappy music in the background.
Click to expand...
I wonder if Bezic said that because there may have been some difficulties getting the TV shows she's produced shown outside of Canada? Obviously, in these days of streaming, selling shows internationally is pretty standard, but I assume the costs of licensing music for international broadcast are higher than what a Canadian production company might have wanted to pay in the 80s and 90s. Canadian TV is produced with very low budgets. Heated Rivalry had to be very clever to get around the show's budget limitations.
 
Gumennik after SP:
Three days before the performance, on the day of my flight to Milan, I was informed that the music hadn't been approved. A ton of options immediately popped into my head. I wanted to skate to either "Dune" or Rammstein. The one they wouldn't let me skate to either in Russia, but here, I thought, that wouldn't be a problem. I even tried contacting Till. I ended up contacting the Rammstein team, but I didn't have time to get the rights.
Then, in St. Petersburg, I decided I needed to skate "Dune." But when I arrived here, I was told that it wouldn't be possible to arrange a new piece by a foreign composer. I'd have to find a composer I knew.

At first, I tried to use an AI-generated piece of music suggested by Tamara Moskvina and a composer she knows. That piece of music would be very similar to "Perfume", with the same accents. But I was bothered by the fact that it sounded unnatural; it bothered me personally to use an AI-generated piece. I couldn't skate to it.

Then someone told me about someone who had composed a piece for the film "Onegin." Well, that was a solution!
Click to expand...

85 years old Moskvina suggesting AI -generated music was not on my bingo card
 
Last edited:
Miezekatze said:
Quite good, but that’s a weird sentence considering pretty much all tv shows on streaming platforms constantly cross borders (and the ones on traditional linear tv do to and always have ) :huh: It’s not like Glitter & Gold is only on Netflix US and Heated Rivalry is only in Canada and nobody outside the US has ever been able to see Grey’s Anatomy, because there’s some sappy music in the background.
Click to expand...

yes, I didn't know that was a significant issue.
However, I heard of tv series from the 90s/early 00s which have different soundtracks (or muted soundtracks) now in streaming services compared to the original tv broadcast because at the time they did not buy the right to use the music for those services.
 
Andrea82 said:
yes, I didn't know that was a significant issue.
However, I heard of tv series from the 90s/early 00s which have different soundtracks (or muted soundtracks) now in streaming services compared to the original tv broadcast because at the time they did not buy the right to use the music for those services.
Click to expand...
This happened a lot when TV shows first started being issued on VHS/DVD. WKRP in Cincinnati took a long time to be released on video because of music rights. I own the DVD set and some of the original songs have been cut or swapped out because the rights to those songs could not be secured - most famously "Dogs" by Pink Floyd which was in the "Turkeys Away" episode was replaced on video and streaming with a generic piece of music.
 
Not sure where to put this, but Christopher Tin has released his edit of the Turandot finale (Yuma's FS music) on streaming "because of the response from the figure skating community."


bsky.app

Christopher Tin (@christophertin.bsky.social)

Because of the response from the figure skating community, I've decided to release Yuma's special figure skating edit of my completion of Turandot on streaming services.This is the music that he's skating to on Friday at the Winter Olympics in the Men's Singles Figure Skating Finals!
bsky.app bsky.app
 
My best friend at elementary school here in Germany in the 1980s was obsessed with Bonanza :lol:

Of course we got all the big US shows since back in the days, which I assume is the case for most places in the world.

It might be true that for small productions from smaller countries it can be too expensive to get their shows released internationally, but still I think there's a lot more variety than some decades ago with the streaming platforms, I've watched shows from Korea, Japan, Libanon, South Africa, several European countries, South America, Canada, ... on Netflix, so I think normally the music rights issue isn't really hindering international productions very often.
 
Ka3sha said:
Gumennik after SP: "At first, I tried to use an AI-generated piece of music suggested by Tamara Moskvina and a composer she knows. That piece of music would be very similar to "Perfume", with the same accents. But I was bothered by the fact that it sounded unnatural; it bothered me personally to use an AI-generated piece. I couldn't skate to it."
85 years old Moskvina suggesting AI -generated music was not on my bingo card
Click to expand...
FWIW, I spoke to choreographer at Nationals in St. Louis who told me that they've heard that many Russian junior skaters are using AI-generated music for their programs these days." :slinkaway
 
Former Lurve Goddess said:
This happened a lot when TV shows first started being issued on VHS/DVD. WKRP in Cincinnati took a long time to be released on video because of music rights. I own the DVD set and some of the original songs have been cut or swapped out because the rights to those songs could not be secured - most famously "Dogs" by Pink Floyd which was in the "Turkeys Away" episode was replaced on video and streaming with a generic piece of music.
Click to expand...

Apparently Murphy Brown will never be released on DVD or streamed because the music rights (the songs that Murphy would sing so badly) are either too expensive or impossible to license. Which is a huge loss IMO with how popular and influential that show was.
 
Wyliefan said:
Not sure where to put this, but Christopher Tin has released his edit of the Turandot finale (Yuma's FS music) on streaming "because of the response from the figure skating community."


bsky.app

Christopher Tin (@christophertin.bsky.social)

Because of the response from the figure skating community, I've decided to release Yuma's special figure skating edit of my completion of Turandot on streaming services.This is the music that he's skating to on Friday at the Winter Olympics in the Men's Singles Figure Skating Finals!
bsky.app bsky.app
Click to expand...
Start at about the 12 minute mark to hear most of what Yuma skates to.
 
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