Music group sues NBC, US figure skating pair over use of song during Winter Olympics

[sk9tingfan]

If the band only found out about K/F using their music during the TE were they trying to go through K/F’s agent during the Olympics to get ahold of them to get them to stop using the music? Would they then have decided that being asked to wait until the Olympics were over as being blown off? I get that the band was probably trying to stop their song from being broadcast on TV again but that was never going to happen as long as K/F were in Beijing.

It had been broadcast during prior competitions on network TV. Where were they then?

 

[MacMadame]

It had been broadcast during prior competitions on network TV. Where were they then?

Who knows. We don't know when they became aware of the use. We don't know when they contacted K/F's agent to cease & desist. It's all speculation at this point.

However, it doesn't matter when they figured it out. It's their work and they have the right to decide who uses it.

 

[stjeaskategym]

I like how this silly lawsuit claims K/F (along with NBC, Peacock, and whoever else) profit from the revenue the Olympics generate. If only.

Skaters have been skating to covers forever with no issue. How would one know this particular cover required different licensing (thanks to Dad the Lawyer, apparently). I don't think Heavy Young Heathens will have to worry about the horrors of getting free exposure on national television anymore after this. Stay away, skaters. Even if these people have a legitimate complaint, suing Olympians who have nothing to do with music licensing mid-Olympics is not a good look.

My phrase about having no respect for musicians was mostly a commentary in this thread but not responding to a letter from the artists of the music you're using or at least their attorney not responding to a letter from the artists who are performing to the music your clients are performing is a sign of disrespect. Professionally-speaking, attorneys ignoring letters is intentional disrespect, and not opening your letters in time to send a respond is a sign of poor or disorganized lawyering.

Someone presented the idea that maybe they only had two weeks to respond. For one thing, we don't know that, but if it were true, first, I usually wrote that they had ten days from receipt of the letter when I wrote my letters to entities I would threaten with legal action, and you bet I followed through. Also, two weeks is a lot of time and in some states, if you're served with a lawsuit, it's not much less than the time that state allows you to respond before the otherside can file a default judgment against you.

What letter? What attorney? You think these musicians managed to send a letter to K/F in the secluded Olympic village in China? Instead of contacting NBC (or whoever is in charge of music licensing), they made a weak attempt to contact K/F (who were at the Olympics without their phones and mostly cut off from the world in order to focus), and when they couldn't get a hold of them (I'm guessing the agent wouldn't put them in contact with K/F in order to avoid distraction and because there's nothing K/F themselves could do about a licensing issue), they filed a lawsuit less than a day before the Pairs SP, basically using K/F to get as much attention as they could from this, at least that's what it felt like.

And hearing that K/F’s agent apparently blew them off shows that perhaps the suit was the only way they could get heard.

I'm not surprised if K/F's agent brushed them off and told them to take this issue up with someone else (ie NBC). He probably thought the idea of figure skaters getting threatened with a music lawsuit in the middle of the Olympics was as ludicrous and unbelievable as the rest of us did. An agent's job in that moment is to protect his clients so they can concentrate on the Olympics, not music licensing and lawsuit threats, two things neither the skaters nor their agent are in charge of handling. These musicians are sue-happy, so chances are Dad Lawyer didn't try too hard to solve this without suing.

I think people got whipped up by the idea that K/F are going to lose all their livelihood because the courts will give the artists a big judgment against them. That was always unlikely and, as has been pointed out by actual lawyers, is not why K/F were named in the suit. It was so that they would "cease & desist" from using the music again unless/until it got paid for.

I don't think K/F have anything to do with this or will lose their livelihoods, but I imagine it was disconcerting/distracting/upsetting for them to hear they were being sued just a few hours before their Olympic short program- set to the very music they are being sued for. That's what ticked me off the most, that these lousy people were interfering with the Olympics and didn't care at all about the human component of suing Olympic athletes right before they compete in the biggest competition of their lives. It could have waited a couple days, but it seemed calculated to happen directly as K/F were competing. Fortunately they didn't let it affect them.

 

[Theoreticalgirl]

I think that those standards should apply across all of skating then. If this band is going to declare that K/F should not/never use their music then they should have gone after everyone else.

How did K/F find this music to skate to, if it was not on some playlist somewhere else?

Did they file for copyright on their cover of the song? I only skimmed this article but gives an overview of what Indie artists need to do.

This is not how it works.

There is a difference between using and making music. Just as there are differences between licensing and copyright. They are intertwined, but distinct.

K/F are not the composers or performers. They are just people who are skating to a song. They still need permission to use it. The system of permissions, particular to the United States, is determined by the context in which the song is being used.

I wrote about this in my previous post rather broadly, but as you can see it is complex and requires a lot more understanding than skimming an article.

 

[soogar]

And why shouldn't they? Thanks for posting the links.

Or just maybe musicians can't live off recognition and deserved to be compensated? There's nothing more irritating, as an artist, to discover that someone had just used your work for their own profit and you haven't been compensated.

What money does a skater make from using a piece of music? In fact, usually there would be a boost in listens on Spotify or other streaming services. I've been listening to T&M's music. I never streamed this artist before.

 

[Theoreticalgirl]

What money does a skater make from using a piece of music? In fact, usually there would be a boost in listens on Spotify or other streaming services. I've been listening to T&M's music. I never streamed this artist before.

Spotify pays $0.003 to $0.0084 per stream. The exact payout depends on the percentage between songwriter, composer, and publisher. Each platform—Spotify, Tidal, YouTube, Apple, Amazon, Deezer et al—have different payout amounts and other determining factors (e.g. stream vs download, user payment tier, etc.).

This is from 2016, but this PDF does a nice job of visualizing how royalty breakdown works on streaming platforms. Payment amounts have changed since its publication, though not by much:

https://www.manatt.com/Manatt/media/Media/PDF/US-Streaming-Royalties-Explained.pdf

Worth noting that in 2021, Tidal introduced direct payments, but only for subscribers of a specific tier. Soundcloud also offers a similar thing for artists who pay to use their service.

Once again, this is for music in the United States.

The point I am trying to make here is that just because you hear it used as a skating program or whatever doesn't necessarily translate into a huge chunk of change.

The sad reality is that musicians are earning money from these platforms in the tiniest increments. Which is why artist support in other ways (touring, physical sales, merch, TV/film placements) are pretty critical, in addition to a significant overhaul of the streaming payout system.

 

[Theoreticalgirl]

FWIW I did some digging and the plaintiffs own the performing and publishing on the song in question. Their dad is also a part of the publishing company, which is why he's probably looking for a settlement, LOL.

 

[jiejie]

On the lawsuit against Hase/Seegert, found this:

Twelve Sixty LLC et al v. Endeavor Group Holdings et al

Copyright case filed on February 28, 2020 in the California Central District Court

dockets.justia.com

Case was dismissed, but could have been a settlement. Not a lawyer, so I'll let the more qualified forum members slice, dice, and interpret. This new K/F lawsuit looks like the same thing. ISU was a defendant in H/S suit as well as this one, so maybe they will take a fresh look at the music licensing issue for skaters. The general issue isn't going away, and technology such as streaming and media that crosses international borders (hence, different copyright regulations) seems to beg a policy rethink.

 

[MacMadame]

I like how this silly lawsuit claims K/F (along with NBC, Peacock, and whoever else) profit from the revenue the Olympics generate. If only.

NBC and Peacock profited from the Olympics. To state otherwise is pretty weird. K/F are in the lawsuit because that's how these lawsuits work not because the band thinks they made a bunch of money off the Olympics.

Skaters have been skating to covers forever with no issue.

Except not. First of all, the fact that it was a "cover" (not sure if that terminology is appropriate for singing a song in the public domain) is irrelevant. Second, other skaters have had issues with music rights before.

What letter? What attorney? You think these musicians managed to send a letter to K/F in the secluded Olympic village in China?

They contacted their agent and we have no idea when that happened.

I don't think K/F have anything to do with this or will lose their livelihoods, but I imagine it was disconcerting/distracting/upsetting for them to hear they were being sued just a few hours before their Olympic short program- set to the very music they are being sued for. That's what ticked me off the most, that these lousy people were interfering with the Olympics and didn't care at all about the human

So K/F are protected in the Olympic Village from being contacted about music rights, but not protected from hearing about it? This timeline and argument are illogical. If they were contacted while in the Olympic Village, then the suit wouldn't have happened then for one thing.

On the lawsuit against Hase/Seegert, found this:

So, in fact, they were sued. Thanks for finding this!

 

[stjeaskategym]

NBC and Peacock profited from the Olympics. To state otherwise is pretty weird. K/F are in the lawsuit because that's how these lawsuits work not because the band thinks they made a bunch of money off the Olympics.

I was referring to K/F. I put the other entities in parentheses because they were also named in the suit, but the lawsuit specifically claims that K/F profit off the revenue of the Olympics, which they certainly do not. This band sounds clueless about skating/Olympics, so maybe they think there's big money in it for the athletes.

other skaters have had issues with music rights before.

Sure, but it's uncommon, and judging by all the responses here, it's confusing as to why this one particular song required different licensing than any other song skaters use. And it's been suggested the band doesn't use normal licensing on purpose so that Dad Lawyer can then sue, am I understanding that right?

Find another instance of skaters being sued literally during their Olympic competition. Could this not have waited until after the Olympics? Not that I expect lawyers to give a darn about the people they're suing and their circumstances. But this hoopla could have at least been directed towards the appropriate channels (NBC, etc), instead of bothering skaters during the Olympics. The lawsuit says the band was upset that there was no on-screen chyron on NBC mentioning their name when the program aired. But they didn't try contacting NBC.

They contacted their agent and we have no idea when that happened.

Given the lawsuit only mentions the Olympic Team Event and no other prior competitions, it seems very likely K/F's agent was contacted sometime within the 13 days between the Team Event SP and when the lawsuit was filed right before the Pairs SP. It sounds like the agent dismissed it, perhaps he directed the band elsewhere (NBC, etc). And that makes sense, because what does an agent know about music licensing and what can he or the skaters do about it? It's not a typical issue. I could see an agent being bothered by a band trying to disrupt the athletes mid-Olympics; I was bothered by it too. So who knows how he spoke to them. Of course an agent should always act professional no matter the issue, but we only heard one side of the story from the sue-happy band.

So K/F are protected in the Olympic Village from being contacted about music rights, but not protected from hearing about it? This timeline and argument are illogical. If they were contacted while in the Olympic Village, then the suit wouldn't have happened then for one thing.

I mentioned the Olympic Village because another poster acted as if K/F had been sent a letter about this and gave it to an attorney who subsequently ignored it- so then the band had no choice but to sue. None of that actually happened. Do we actually think a letter got sent to the Beijing village, never mind fast enough for someone to do something about it. Why not send a letter to the skaters in the States and wait until after they got home to respond? The band wanted a lawsuit to happen during the Olympic competition so they could get maximum publicity for it. Trying to contact skaters by letter, phone, whatever, during the Olympics is not a good way to contact them- the skaters were in a mental bubble practicing and focusing. They definitely heard what was going on, but what could they have done about it?

So, in fact, they were sued. Thanks for finding this!

I don't remember hearing anything about Hase/Seegert getting sued, they skated to House of the Rising Sun for 2 seasons. Too bad there wasn't more attention on this to warn other skaters about using this song. Eva-Lotta Kiibus also skated to it around that same time-frame, did she get sued? Another team is using it this season, but I won't mention their name so they don't get sued too. lol ridiculous. Suing skaters isn't going to give them more money, or fans.

 

[barbk]

More interesting, what are K/F going to do for Worlds?

 

[skatingguy]

I was referring to K/F. I put the other entities in parentheses because they were also named in the suit, but the lawsuit specifically claims that K/F profit off the revenue of the Olympics, which they certainly do not. This band sounds clueless about skating/Olympics, so maybe they think there's big money in it for the athletes.

It won't be hard to demonstrate that Knierim/Frazier profited from the Olympics. Athletes receive money for winning a medal, for example, which they did in the Team Event. They may not be making a fortune off their success at the games, but their earning potential increased as a result of winning a medal, and their strong placing in the Pairs event.

 

[MacMadame]

More interesting, what are K/F going to do for Worlds?

They are either going to have to come to an agreement with the band that allows them to skate to this song or go back to an older program that uses different music.

whole post

I can see you are all hot and bothered by this, but also that you are ignorant about how music rights and lawsuits about them work.

 

[stjeaskategym]

It won't be hard to demonstrate that Knierim/Frazier profited from the Olympics. Athletes receive money for winning a medal, for example, which they did in the Team Event. They may not be making a fortune off their success at the games, but their earning potential increased as a result of winning a medal, and their strong placing in the Pairs event.

They don't profit from using a piece of music. They don't profit from participating in the Olympics, at least not directly. Is receiving money from the USOC for winning a medal the same as "profiting from the revenue the 2022 Winter Olympics generate"? That seems like a stretch.

I can see you are all hot and bothered by this, but also that you are ignorant about how music rights and lawsuits about them work.

I'm definitely not all hot and bothered, just having a discussion. And nobody here seems to have a flawless explanation of music rights and lawsuits, or what the exact issue is with this particular song. I don't care to know every detail, I'm mostly just saying I found the timing of all this to be bad. And maybe it could have been handled better instead of suing people in the middle of the Olympics (from what I've seen around the internet, a lot of people agree with me). I get why K/F were named in the suit. You could just explain what you think I said that was incorrect instead of calling me ignorant, but it's fine.

 

[MacMadame]

If you aren't hot and bothered then maybe avoid using terms like silly, sue-happy, etc.

There have been pages and pages explaining how music rights work including links to articles about it. I'm not going to repeat all of that. The bottom line is that traditional music publishing has never favored the artists who create the music and it's gotten worse with streaming. As a result, many artists are trying non-traditional methods to put food on their table and a roof over their head. One such way is to not license with the big name companies but arrange for sync licenses for each use. This is a path that many indie bands are pursuing, not just this band. There is nothing suspicious about it.

As for the timing, what did you expect them to do? Do you really think they knew K/F were skating to this song and waited until the very worst time to ask them about it? Most likely they were alerted to it because they or someone they knew drew their attention to it being used in the TE. They contacted K/F's agent who is in the US, not in Beijing, and who should know enough about music rights to realize they needed to respond. (If they don't know about music rights, they are a sucky agent). They got no response so they filed a lawsuit. (By filing the lawsuit immediately, no one can argue that they knew about the use and did nothing so they must have been okay with it.)

Honestly, if the agent didn't respond to the band, I doubt they told K/F about it until after the Olympics. And I doubt K/F even knew about the lawsuit until they came home because there is no way they could be served over in Beijing in the Olympic bubble.

So what you are wrong about:
(1) the timing of the suit is suspicious
(2) that K/F didn't get money from being in the Olympics
(3) that using this music didn't help them make that money -- music is part of the performance -- you can't separate it out
(4) that other people agreeing with you means you are correct
(5) that this band uses sync licensing so they can go around suing people rather than them thinking it's a better way to license their work (because IMO it is a better way especially)
(6) that it matters if other people using this song didn't get sued
(7) that you know the motivation of the band for what they did and did not do

Plus a bunch of other things which have already been talked about in the thread.

As for handling it better, USFS certifies to the ISU that all the music used by their skaters has been cleared. They do this at the start of the season. So either USFS is supposed to check and didn't or K/F are supposed to check and didn't. Either way, someone f'ed up and it's not the band. If K/F or USFS had checked to see if this song was covered by the appropriate license, then they either would have paid the band to use it or picked another song.

 

[sus2850]

Not sure it was posted, but here is the lawsuit.

https://www.courthousenews.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/02/House-of-the-Rising-Sun.pdf

They seem especially annoyed that their name was not mentioned in the broadcast (which is the skaters’ team‘s fault: They have to tell the ISU what music they are using, the broadcasters then use the info the ISU provides)

Regarding Hase/Seegert/German law:
We have a copyright/licencing body in Germany called GEMA. They collect the fees from venues/broadcasters and distribute it to the artists.

GEMA | For composers, lyricists and music publishers - gema.de

A strong partner for 90,000 GEMA members and over two million music users in Germany. What unites us all: the love of music.

www.gema.de

They also have contracts with other collecting societies. They collect for and distribute to US artists that are licensed with SESAC „Society of European Stage Authors & Composers“, ASCAP „American Society of Composers, Authors, and Publishers“, BMI “ Broadcast Music Incorporated“.

They are very efficient, there were cases of pre-school teachers having to pay fines for not paying for song use by GEMA licenced artists.



Some entities like supermarkets or restaurants who do not want to pay copyright fees are using music that is not GEMA licensed and therefore „free“, usually that is music created by an algorithm or music that the creators want to be used without being paid (i.e. for „exposure“).

I can only guess that the recording of the now suing brother duo somehow made it to a spotify list of such „GEMA-free“ music for German use where Hase/Seegert found it.
Even though the GEMA recommends for users to re-check wether those songs are really rights free, I guess a skater does not usually do this. Or Hase/Seegert claimed they cleared the use with GEMA. Then they are not at fault. If the duo does not have their work licensed with SESAC „Society of European Stage Authors & Composers“, ASCAP „American Society of Composers, Authors, and Publishers“, BMI “ Broadcast Music Incorporated“ they chose not to be paid for the use of their music through this really well working world wide fee collecting system.

If the band claims that they want to do 1:1 licencing only, they have to remove their music from sites like Youtube or Spotify. And sue those platforms (as happens with all Prince music for example).

 

[aka_gerbil]

They seem especially annoyed that their name was not mentioned in the broadcast (which is the skaters“ team‘s fault: They have to tell the ISU what music they are using, the broadcaster‘s then use the info the ISU provides)

It may just be time of day, but when they briefly flash the music selection on screen, I don’t recall the artist(s) being named. Also, the band name is in the ISU bio. http://www.isuresults.com/bios/isufs00110201.htm

 

[misskarne]

They seem especially annoyed that their name was not mentioned in the broadcast (which is the skaters’ team‘s fault: They have to tell the ISU what music they are using, the broadcasters then use the info the ISU provides)

I went and checked this using the replays on 7Plus, the Australian broadcaster, which was taking the OBS stream with OBS graphics.

Yes, the band's name was not published next to the name of the music.

Neither was anyone else's. Straight after, the band who played Shiny Happy People for J/R were not named either.

Therefore, we cannot definitively say that it is K/F's fault that the band's name didn't come up. It seems that was a decision made by the OBS not to show the artist. So it's not the NBC's fault either if the NBC was using OBS supplied graphics. So by lack of their own research the band might have taken out one of their own complaints.

EDIT: Okay, so I stand corrected, the Japanese couple had Leonard Cohen come up, as did the Austrians. Now I'm just confused, because some definitely don't, and some definitely do.

 

[stjeaskategym]

It seems that was a decision made by the OBS not to show the artist. So it's not the NBC's fault either if the NBC was using OBS supplied graphics. So by lack of their own research the band might have taken out one of their own complaints.

Yes, NBC did indeed use the OBS graphics (although they modified them slightly to list that K/F were US Champions before listing the music). The graphics listed the musical artist for just about all of the competitors, but not K/F's Team Event SP. It must have been an oversight. For skaters using multiple pieces of music, it's possible the artists weren't listed due to lack of room.

Once the lawsuit was filed, NBC made sure to modify the graphic for K/F's SP during the Pair event to mention the artist, but the world feed continued to show the song title without the artist. So I guess the band should be suing whoever is in charge of the world feed lol.

They seem especially annoyed that their name was not mentioned in the broadcast (which is the skaters“ team‘s fault: They have to tell the ISU what music they are using, the broadcaster‘s then use the info the ISU provides)

K/F's music choices and the band's name have been listed in their ISU & USFS biographies for the entire season. Their team is in no way responsible for what NBC chooses to show on the screen. No idea why the name of the artist wasn't listed (probably just a mistake), but NBC wasn't even making their own graphics, they had the same graphics as the world feed. You're right that the band seems especially annoyed by this, and they have a right to be, so I don't know why they didn't just contact NBC instead of thinking they could get a hold of the skaters in the middle of the Olympics (who obviously don't have anything to do with NBC or the world feed).

 

[stjeaskategym]

If you aren't hot and bothered then maybe avoid using terms like silly, sue-happy, etc.

People who sue a lot are 'sue-happy'. A lawsuit that says K/F are profiting off of Olympic revenue/this song is 'silly' in my opinion. I'm not 'hot and bothered'. I'm mildly bothered. I'd be more bothered if it had affected K/F's performances, but they did some of their best ever skating, so I'm fine.

Do you really think they knew K/F were skating to this song and waited until the very worst time to ask them about it? Most likely they were alerted to it because they or someone they knew drew their attention to it being used in the TE.

I'm aware that the band likely didn't know the song was being used until the Team Event, but when they found out isn't my point.
I think mid-Olympics is the worst time to ask skaters about music licenses, yes. It could have waited until after the Olympics. You don't need to sue figure skaters hours before they compete. Acknowledging that the skaters are at the OLYMPICS and cannot immediately address your concerns is what should have happened.

They contacted K/F's agent who is in the US, not in Beijing, and who should know enough about music rights to realize they needed to respond. (If they don't know about music rights, they are a sucky agent).

I'm not sure what you expect K/F's agent to know about music rights since it seems virtually every song these skaters use is covered under some sort of blanket licensing. The skaters/agents don't handle this stuff. The band did indeed get in contact with the agent- how he went about handling the conversation doesn't have anything to do K/F, who were focusing on their competition.

By filing the lawsuit immediately, no one can argue that they knew about the use and did nothing so they must have been okay with it.

Fair enough. I think waiting 3 days to file the lawsuit would have been appropriate to allow the skaters to complete their Olympic event without feeling stressed by a lawsuit. But again, I'm not expecting a lawyer to have a heart or show any consideration for the people they're suing.

Honestly, if the agent didn't respond to the band, I doubt they told K/F about it until after the Olympics. And I doubt K/F even knew about the lawsuit until they came home because there is no way they could be served over in Beijing in the Olympic bubble.

K/F definitely knew about the lawsuit. They were questioned about it after the FS and said they had people taking care of it and trying to shield them from distraction while they were competing. Alexa gave a quote after the SP about how they were trained to "endure whatever is brought to us" and focus "no matter what they felt"- that led me to believe they knew about the suit before the SP too. They would have found out just hours before that skate. But who knows, maybe her quote was referring to the adversity of having a early start order and not the lawsuit. But they definitely knew by the time of the FS.

So what you are wrong about:

(2) that K/F didn't get money from being in the Olympics (3) that using this music didn't help them make that money -- music is part of the performance -- you can't separate it out

What money did they get for being in the Olympics? They will get money for winning a medal. Is that the same thing? The medal is for their athletic achievement, not their music. But okay.

(4) that other people agreeing with you means you are correct

Condescending much. It's just my opinion. You are free to disagree about how this was handled by the band. Many people don't like how it was handled.

(5) that this band uses sync licensing so they can go around suing people rather than them thinking it's a better way to license their work (because IMO it is a better way especially)

Quote I found in an article--- "Fortunately for NBC, the Olympics qualify as a live event, so no synchronization licenses were required. NBC paid the blanket fee and a separate royalty for each performance of a song."

This was your quote:
"Originally I rolled my eyes at this suit because I assumed that the music was covered by the normal licensing companies. I realize now that was dumb. Especially now that we know one of them has a lawyer for a father. "

I interpreted your quote as you thinking they use different licensing because of their lawyer father. Correct me if I misunderstood.

(6) that it matters if other people using this song didn't get sued

All I said was it a shame Hase/Seegert's lawsuit wasn't a much bigger story because it would have warned other skaters about this song. I'm a huge pairs fan and I don't recall ever hearing about H/S having an issue, in fact they used this music for 2 seasons.

 

[tony]

The back and forth of whether K/F or their team actually listed the artist is so easily solved by going to their ISU biography. That lists exactly what was written on the forms they submitted, and the artist is indeed listed.

 

[sus2850]

Yes, sorry for assuming, K/F did not supply the artists name. I forgot to check. It is good if the case brings more awareness to have the music listed fully and correctly at the ISU skaters‘ pages!

I still do not get why the band apparently does not want to be a member of a collecting society. My friends who have bands were so happy about GEMA during corona as they decided to give every single band/artist extra/early/additional money to compensate losses for not being able to perform live

 

[her grace]

I hope K/F have changed their music to a different cover for Worlds. I certainly wouldn’t want to skate to music made by someone who sued me.

 

[Frau Muller]

I hope K/F have changed their music to a different cover for Worlds. I certainly wouldn’t want to skate to music made by someone who sued me.

Or they can spare us that ugly music and go classical!

 

[MacMadame]

EDIT: Okay, so I stand corrected, the Japanese couple had Leonard Cohen come up, as did the Austrians. Now I'm just confused, because some definitely don't, and some definitely do.

The graphics at competitions frequently don't exactly match what is in the bios. I notice this because I have the bios up on my computer screen while people are competing. The organizers seem to take the info there and edit it to fit in their graphics.

I really don't see what the issue is. I mean I know some people speculated that the band got mad because they weren't listed but I'd be surprised if that was the case.

I'm not sure what you expect K/F's agent to know about music rights

It's their job to know these things.

What money did they get for being in the Olympics? They will get money for winning a medal. Is that the same thing? The medal is for their athletic achievement, not their music. But okay.

So they could just take away the music and compete without it? Now that is silly.

Condescending much. It's just my opinion. You are free to disagree about how this was handled by the band. Many people don't like how it was handled.

It's one of my pet peeves. At least you didn't go with "people have PMed me to say they agree" which is even more annoying IMO.

I interpreted your quote as you thinking they use different licensing because of their lawyer father. Correct me if I misunderstood.

Sync licenses have the potential to be more profitable than old-fashioned licensing and are becoming popular among indie artists trying to control their own work (and not starve). But they are trickier than just listing with one or more of the licensing groups and accepting whatever checks they send you. Having a father who is a lawyer would be very helpful and might have tipped them over to doing sync licenses. Or not. They may have done it anyway for the same reasons other artists do it. But having a lawyer in the family is definitely a bonus.

 

[Theoreticalgirl]

Sync licenses have the potential to be more profitable than old-fashioned licensing and are becoming popular among indie artists trying to control their own work (and not starve).

What is "old-fashioned licensing"? And are you expressing an opinion that they are becoming more popular, or is this based upon concrete data?

 

[MacMadame]

What is "old-fashioned licensing"? And are you expressing an opinion that they are becoming more popular, or is this based upon concrete data?

Old-fashioned licensing is getting a record deal with a record company and your work being part of their catalog so it falls under the licensing agreements they have with the various music rights companies (of which BMI and ASCAP are two of the biggies). There are a lot of articles about how musicians and singers are moving away from getting record deals and are doing everything themselves including publishing their own creative work and making their own deals.

Not on topic to this thread exactly, but I think the advent of streaming and people not buying as much music but instead listening to streaming services has accelerated this trend in the same way that the pandemic has accelerated working from home.

 

[Tesla]

Old-fashioned licensing is getting a record deal with a record company and your work being part of their catalog so it falls under the licensing agreements they have with the various music rights companies (of which BMI and ASCAP are two of the biggies). There are a lot of articles about how musicians and singers are moving away from getting record deals and are doing everything themselves including publishing their own creative work and making their own deals.

Not on topic to this thread exactly, but I think the advent of streaming and people not buying as much music but instead listening to streaming services has accelerated this trend in the same way that the pandemic has accelerated working from home.

Streaming also enables access to music not on mainstream radio. I've purchased some MP3 albums of artists I discovered on Pandora. I never would've known about them anywhere else.

 

[Theoreticalgirl]

Old-fashioned licensing is getting a record deal with a record company and your work being part of their catalog so it falls under the licensing agreements they have with the various music rights companies (of which BMI and ASCAP are two of the biggies). There are a lot of articles about how musicians and singers are moving away from getting record deals and are doing everything themselves including publishing their own creative work and making their own deals.

A master license—which I believe are you referring to—is not "old-fashioned". It's still necessary, especially if someone approaches you about using the entirety of a work for sync.

There have been plenty of instances in which artists have owned 100% of their rights throughout recorded history. First one that comes to mind is Stevie Wonder's 1971 deal with Motown, where all prior and future works became entirely under his control.

It is not a new concept and is pretty much how independent musicians have operated for decades, myself included. There are also plenty of independent labels today that let artists retain their rights.

I have been a research assistant on projects examining revenue streams for artists, so I can tell you objectively that the types of "deals" vary greatly. Every artist, even those on majors, have a different mix of income. What's effective for one, might not work for another.

A sync is not a guarantee for good money, based on my experience of being a performer on a song that wound up on Veronica Mars.

 

[bladesofgorey]

A sync is not a guarantee for good money, based on my experience of being a performer on a song that wound up on Veronica Mars.

That's very cool. A close friend of mine had his band's song featured on One Tree Hill and they made 36 dollars from it. (not $36 each, it was split 3 ways)