Mark Mitchell: "Why would they come back to the rink?"

[Marco]

The problem with PCS inflation is that it tends to reduce spread between great skaters and good skaters. Good skaters get more of an inflation (e.g., from 7 to 9) than great skaters (from 9 to 9.5). That said, I think Wagner was flat, looked like she was skating a new program, and deserved lower PCS than she received from an international panel, where she skated a three-year old comfortable program with attack.

I think they were trying to level out the top four on PCS and just let them fight it out on TES.

 

[Prancer]

No, it is not on you,

Yes, it is, because I could learn but choose not to. I will take your word for the millions of football fans and their take on the game, because again, I don't care. I haven't a clue what game you are talking about and I don't want to know.

If I ask a dozen skating fans what components Vincent Zhou should have received in his free skate, I am most likely to get 9 different answers. Not surprising, since none of the judges agreed with each other. In fact, three judges agreed with another judges more than half of the time, and these are, presumably, the top experts applying a precise (able to be measured down to the hundredth of a point) scoring system.

Yes, it's a judged sport and people's judgment varies. Name one judged sport in which there is a consensus on scoring every time.

For me, scoring variance is inevitable and not really an issue, but I work in a field in which people make different judgments all the time and it's all good as long as we are in the same general vicinity and can show that we are using the same criteria. And yes, it is entirely possible to use the exact same criteria and come to different judgments.

If people are looking for a sport in which everything is black and white, skating is not for them--and won't be for them, probably ever and certainly not in any form that we recognize the sport now. And it surely won't be for them if the judges start weighing emotional responses much more heavily than technical merit. That's one of the arguments against skating now--that it all comes down to a beauty contest.

If the judges cannot agree on what the scores should be, how can you expect a casual fan to understand?

Why should the sport concern itself overmuch with casual fans? Yes, I know--how will we ever make skating popular again? I don't see any way we ever will. Skating had a brief heyday, but otherwise, it has always been a niche sport and I see no reason why it will ever be anything else again. People are right--it's a closed, insular little world where all the skaters are above average in just about every way. It's expensive, most people can't afford it, it requires a very high level of dedication and focus over many years, and there's no real future in pursuing the sport. That pretty much defines a niche sport.

 

[aftershocks]

The moral of the Miner saga - Going forward, U.S. competitors need to make every competition count. Don't throw any element away at any Senior B or GP event. Attempt and fall rather than pop. No 'peaking for Nationals'.

Jeez, if only the ISU judges, fs politics, skate order luck, injury and training issues, quad-abilities or lack thereof, pesky head chatter, bad ice, popping reflexes, travel mishaps, broken down boots, misaligned blades, stolen costumes, unfinished costumes, relatives, pets, coach, significant other, US fed, BOW wow selection committee, and the friggin' Skate Gods, etc would cooperate!!!

 

[MsZem]

exactly. This BOW crap has turned into just another “right to work” load of bollocks engineered to provide all of the spoils for just the chosen few. It’s like the old catch 22 they put 16 year olds through: can’t get a job without “experience” but can’t get experience without your first job. Next thing you know your working for free to gain experience. Sports used to be the great equalizer providing anyone with talent willing to work hard a chance to succeed.

Since the rest of your post is more of the same, I stopped here.

Do skaters not get junior assignments when they're younger? Did Ross Miner not get two CS events and a GP this season? Bradie Tennell didn't just win Nationals, she also performed well in several international assignments, which made her case even stronger.

Skaters from smaller federations would be at a disadvantage, because without host pics they really do need the international results to get GP assignments. But that's hardly relevant for US selections. A country with so many strong skaters can be selective about who it chooses to send, and there's really no case to be made that the strongest team is by definition the top three at Nationals.

 

[barbk]

You tell them Sam! You tell them Nationals is worthless and only fit for lowly skaters that go to Regionals and Sectionals. The only competitions of any value when determining an Olympic Team are foreign Junior and Senior B, foreign GP, GPF, and ISU Championships. If a skaters has not qualified for an International competition other than SA at least by the Nationals two season prior to the Olympics, then they have no hope of making the Olympic Team

. . . I suppose that was supposed to be a burn, but it has been basically true for a long time except with Bradie since US Figure Skating was hopeless when it came to technical content.

Seems to me that USFSA has been much more generous than many other federations in sending skaters to international competitions. Once there, it is on the skaters.

Skaters and coaches have been on notice for more than four years that Nationals was not the only factor. Using factors beyond Nationals was something many on this board supported. And, oddly enough, it is exactly what many other top federations do in skating.

Ross had 3 GP events and 3 Senior B's in the past two seasons. The USFSA spent heavily to get him to those. I can't see how anyone could complain that he didn't have a fair shot to show his stuff.

So, yeah, if coaches aren't going back home after Nationals and reinforcing with their skaters that what they do at every competition matters, they're not doing their job. USFSA can quantify the formula over the next two years, and then skaters like Ross can go to Nationals knowing just how deep a hole they've already dug for themselves.

 

[berthesghost]

^ us skating history is full of stars who got late starts and/or had middling to no success before seniors. Your point only seems to prove mine imo. Q: Want to be rewarded for doing well? A: Sorry, it’s all about what you did or didn’t do a decade ago when you were a kid in a different devision! Yeesh.

 

[Coco]

I'm seeing a lot of debates online about how Alabama wasn't qualified to make the 4 team playoff for US College Football's National Championship.

Basically, they got in on their body of work, the other three qualifiers had won their conference championships, but then won the whole thing.

 

[MsZem]

^ us skating history is full of stars who got late starts and/or had middling to no success before seniors. Your point only seems to prove mine imo. Q: Want to be rewarded for doing well? A: Sorry, it’s all about what you did or didn’t do a decade ago when you were a kid in a different devision! Yeesh.

The criteria is very clearly about this season and to a lesser extent last season. If it went back any further, Ashley Wagner would have been on the Olympic team.

A decade ago (actually, not quite that far back) Starr Andrews was whipping her hair back and forth.

 

[VGThuy]

I mean there was a list of published criteria and it only took into account events in the past two seasons (ETA: it's actually competitions within one year over the course of two seasons). Skaters and their coaches knew about it for about a year or so. Ross and his team knew which competitions were going to be in consideration. Adam took himself out of contention after his injury at Nationals last year and thus had to miss three very important competitions that were in consideration (2017 Nats, 2017 4CC, and 2017 Worlds). Adam had to come back from injury and put his name back into consideration by doing well at his competitions this season. He did so by doing well and qualifying for the GPF. This record was not unbeatable though. Ross had ample opportunity to win a medal at 2017 Nats and qualify for 4CC and Worlds. Since that didn't happen, he had international assignments this Fall to make his case. It's not like Ross was some new junior that came from no where and had no previous international experience. He had 11 senior seasons of international competition prior to 2018 Nationals.

 

[clairecloutier]

I'm just catching up now on some of the threads from Nationals. Just want to put a few thoughts out, based on what I've read.

1. It seems like there's some level of perception that Ross Miner and his coaches didn't take the whole season seriously and were just focusing on Nationals. I really don't think this is the case at all. I saw Ross's short program at his first competition this year, which was Colonial Open in May. Colonial is a small event ... there was literally no one there except for skaters' families, and Ross was the only senior man there, he had zero competition. Still, Ross went for the quad Salchow and all his triples at Colonial, and the program was in great shape even at that point in the season. As soon as I saw him go for the quad, I immediately thought, "Ross is going to make a run this year." Because he didn't need to be trying that element at Colonial, but he did. Of course, partly he did it to earn the slot at Skate America, but still. He then backed that up by winning the free skate at Glacier Falls. True, his CS and GP events this year were a little disappointing. But I do believe Ross fully took this season seriously and gave it his best shot. Consistency is something Ross has struggled with since his injuries around the 2012-14 time frame. It's been hard for him to re-find consistency after that. And that has worked against him. But he has shown flashes of brilliant skating every year. And as someone pointed out in the U.S. Men's thread a few weeks ago (I think it was @olympic?), there is really no reason, in terms of pure ability, why Ross should not be competitive with skaters like Adam and Jason. He has a similar skill set to those guys--strong triples up through Lutz, an on-and-off relationship with triple Axel, an iffy quad, but great skating skills, great spins, and strong overall presentation.

2. Arguments are being made that only serious figure skating fans care about the selection process/decisions, that the general public doesn't care, and that this Ross controversy will blow over. I think this view misses something. The Olympic selection process for sports, particularly judged sports, is very important. The effects of a decision like this ripple through the whole figure skating community, down to the lowest levels. Skaters, parents, coaches, all absorb the impact of these decisions. And it informs their choices. Skaters face many crossroads during their career, and continuing in the sport is not always a given. If it's perceived that selection processes are not fair or optimal, then it can affect the overall view of the sport and inclination to continue. My point is these decisions do not exist in a vacuum, they have an impact on everyone.

Like, for example, I'll just say that, as a parent, my knowledge of the Olympic selection process and general operating procedures in USA Gymnastics has made me disinclined to get my kids involved in gymnastics. If they ever expressed a strong interest, I wouldn't stop them. But in the absence of such an interest, I'm not going to encourage them to get involved in gymnastics, because I have issues with how the sport is being run and its selection processes. Other parents could come to a similar conclusion about U.S. Figure Skating. I don't feel that way myself, but it's just something federations need to be aware of. Their decisions about top-level athletes affect the sport at the lower levels, too.

3. Related to this ... I find it interesting that Mark Mitchell's comments about the situation made direct reference to the financial costs Ross has incurred in continuing to skate, questioning if these were worthwhile. Figure skating designer Tania Bass posted a very similar message on her Facebook in regard to Ross's situation at Nationals. People who are in figure skating know exactly how much money it takes to keep going in this sport. The actual costs, and the opportunity costs, of skating are huge. If the perception rises that USFS doesn't treat skaters in a respectful and fair fashion in regard to competition opportunities, then the decision to keep incurring those huge costs can get called into question.

Anyhow, these are just some thoughts I've had in reaction to this decision.

 

[Prancer]

3. Related to this ... I find it interesting that Mark Mitchell's comments about the situation made direct reference to the financial costs Ross has incurred in continuing to skate, questioning if these were worthwhile. Figure skating designer Tania Bass posted a very similar message on her Facebook in regard to Ross's situation at Nationals. People who are in figure skating know exactly how much money it takes to keep going in this sport. The actual costs, and the opportunity costs, of skating are huge. If the perception rises that USFS doesn't treat skaters in a respectful and fair fashion in regard to competition opportunities, then the decision to keep incurring those huge costs can get called into question.

When has this not been an issue? I've been following skating since 1972 and I can't remember a time when skaters didn't think they were being hosed by the judges, the system, the ISU, or whatever.

That doesn't mean that skaters should just roll over and take whatever gets dished out, but skaters have always felt that they were getting a raw deal in some way or other for as long as I have been a fan. It's not like everything was fine until now.

 

[soogar]

I don't know how wise it is to place such a premium on the Grand Prix and B events. A lot of skaters who have a great Grand Prix season can fizzle out by the time Olympics and Words comes around. I remember that many times Irina Slutskaya would have a great Grand Prix season and then not skate so well at Worlds. Looking at a season of competitions favors a younger skater. Even when Michelle got older, she did not place an emphasis on the Grand Prix events and she had a long competitive career.

Now the programs are more demanding and taxing plus a skater has to skate well all season long? I wonder how much of this competition played a role in Adam's free skate at Nationals. He's an older skater and it is hard to constantly skate peak performances at all those events. Jason Brown in particular looked very tired. It doesn't make sense to burn out older skaters who are respected by judges and can put out good performances at the big events.

 

[BlueRidge]

When has this not been an issue? I've been following skating since 1972 and I can't remember a time when skaters didn't think they were being hosed by the judges, the system, the ISU, or whatever.

That doesn't mean that skaters should just roll over and take whatever gets dished out, but skaters have always felt that they were getting a raw deal in some way or other for as long as I have been a fan. It's not like everything was fine until now.

The reality is that there is a culture of complaint in skating. And it is and has long been very corrosive. Because judging and decision-making is subjective, every outcome can be questioned.

That is why I think it is incumbent on people who care about skating to temper their emotional reactions and think through their challenges to make sure they are truly warranted, and that they are expressed in a responsible manner.

People wonder why figure skating lacks credibility. Is it because all the governing bodies are singularly irresponsible, or is because so many involved at all levels of skating assume the right to complain that almost any decision they don't like is unfair and/or corrupt?

 

[MsZem]

I don't know how wise it is to place such a premium on the Grand Prix and B events. A lot of skaters who have a great Grand Prix season can fizzle out by the time Olympics and Words comes around.

On the flip side, placement at Nationals isn't necessarily a predictor of success at later events, either. Laura Lepisto did not win Finnish Nationals the year she won Euros. Evan Lysacek went into 2009 Worlds as the third American guy; he won. Jeremy Abbott was the National Champion when he competed at the 2010 Olympics; he was the lowest placed American. In 2003, Russia sent its top two men from Nationals to Euros, along with the fifth-place finisher. Plushenko had to WD. Kovtun, who was a controversial selection, ended up the top Russian. In 2002 France sent its top three men from Nationals to Euros. Guess who ended up lowest?

And of course, we'll never know if anyone who had a meh Nationals would have skated well at later events, because such skaters typically are not assigned to any major events later on.

 

[Prancer]

The reality is that there is a culture of complaint in skating. And it is and has long been very corrosive. Because judging and decision-making is subjective, every outcome can be questioned.

That is why I think it is incumbent on people who care about skating to temper their emotional reactions and think through their challenges to make sure they are truly warranted, and that they are expressed in a responsible manner.

People wonder why figure skating lacks credibility. Is it because all the governing bodies are singularly irresponsible, or is because so many involved at all levels of skating assume the right to complain that almost any decision they don't like is unfair and/or corrupt?

Do people complain like this in diving? Certainly the commentators never carry on the way skating commentators do, even when they disagree with the judges. It's not "WHAT FRESH HELL IS THIS?" but more "I must have missed something."

Boxing gets a lot of complaint. Gymnastics gets some. I don't know about things like synchronized swimming and artistic gymnastics or equestrian sports.

 

[BlueRidge]

Do people complain like this in diving? Certainly the commentators never carry on the way skating commentators do, even when they disagree with the judges. It's not "WHAT FRESH HELL IS THIS?" but more "I must have missed something."

Boxing gets a lot of complaint. Gymnastics gets some. I don't know about things like synchronized swimming and artistic gymnastics or equestrian sports.

Good question. Since I only watch skating, I don't know. I do have some thoughts about the general cultural attitudes in the US of complaint and ingrained contempt for institutions and individuals in positions of power, but I'll save that for PI.

 

[overedge]

People wonder why figure skating lacks credibility. Is it because all the governing bodies are singularly irresponsible, or is because so many involved at all levels of skating assume the right to complain that almost any decision they don't like is unfair and/or corrupt?

I think there is more of option (A) than might be the case in other organizations. There seem to be a lot of people involved in skating governance who know a lot about skating but who don't know a lot about effective governance, and how effective governance is regulated and/or perceived externally.

 

[ZilphaK]

There are plenty of officiating disputes in football, and we even see the league issuing statements in days after games when they believe that the folks on the ground got it wrong. Easy enough to say how many points you get for a touchdown, but the arguments over what constitutes a "catch" go on endlessly. The rules even change depending on how much time is left to play in the game. Most casual football fans spend a lot more hours watching football than most casual skating fans spend watching figure skating -- and casual football fans flood talk radio with wild discussions of their impressions of how various plays should have been called in the NFL games.

No one likes refs. But whether or not a catch is a catch in football, and thus a point, is still a different kind of judging than giving points on style and artistry.

A ref might decide not to allow a point when they declare a catch not a catch, but they don't also deduct an additional point because the player didn't catch the ball in time with the music, show enough toe point or connect with the audience while they were running.

Take away the PCS and GOE scores in figure skating, make everyone wear the same uniform, etc. only have tech specialists handing out scores and the comparison would be closer.

 

[vesperholly]

In addition, none of USFS' BOW criteria make much sense because skaters have no control over the assignments they are given, and the international judging process is highly political. Ross had announced this was his last season, and he went into it with a positive attitude and two great programs. He was only assigned one GP, so he was handicapped going in.

That's a reach. Ross had three opportunities to do well this fall and he failed to seize them. He skated poorly at his two CS events, placing 5th and 6th. He also skated poorly at Skate America, finishing 6th. This season, he is 27th on the ISU season's best. I have no doubt that he took these events seriously, but he simply didn't skate well.

The reason he only had 1 GP this season is because he skated poorly last season (9th and 12th in his GPs) and did not earn any outright. He was 48th on the ISU 16-17 season's best list.

I'm not saying skaters have to win every competition, but they have to skate better over time, or at least show signs of improvement. Bradie Tennell only had one GP event too, but she made hay and earned a bronze medal.

USFS has consistently sent Ross out for international assignments since 2010-11. He only has himself to blame for his overall skating record.

 

[ZilphaK]

It's expensive, most people can't afford it, it requires a very high level of dedication and focus over many years, and there's no real future in pursuing the sport.

All true. But as someone on the front lines, I do think that USFS needs to be more upfront with this by promoting parent education and coaching ethics. As I've said elsewhere, as a parent of three kids and who's been in way too many sports, and as someone who is by nature question-happy and skeptical, I still found it especially hard to get straight answers about training, eventual costs, potential, best coaching practices.

Coaches are all, for the most part, independent contractors in competition with each other, and there's "fudging" that goes on at the ground level. I've seen kids pulled out of school and coffers drained by this sport, and the niche culture of skating and competition for students all lead to heartache long before and in spite of anyone ever getting to nationals. Competitive skating is an early-peak sport that requires a ton of sacrifice from families, early on, and specialization on the part of kids. Most parents are first timers to the sport.

Even if figure skating is never going to change or become more popular or die a slow death, the complications at all levels still need to be addressed. I think that's a bit of what Mitchell was responding to with his somewhat ineloquent soundbite. If figure skating is going to remain status quo, parents need to know more, upfront, about what they are getting themselves into. And again, that information isn't always forthcoming, from any source. I think Charlie White mentioned his mom going to rinks to help educate parents. I think there needs to be more of that.

It's one thing to discuss the perceived unfairness and expense and heartbreak online, as a hobby. It's another when families are living it. I think that's a bit of what's fueling a lot of my response to this situation.

 

[Prancer]

Coaches are all, for the most part, independent contractors in competition with each other, and there's "fudging" that goes on at the ground level. I've seen kids pulled out of school and coffers drained by this sport, and the niche culture of skating and competition for students all lead to heartache long before and in spite of anyone ever getting to nationals. Competitive skating is an early-peak sport that requires a ton of sacrifice from families, early on, and specialization on the part of kids. Most parents are first timers to the sport.

Yes, I'm aware of this and ITA that this should be directly and firmly addressed. Ethical behavior is not something that can be taken for granted and saying that parents should know better is just . Unless they skated themselves, why would they? What would make them capable of accurately assessing the coaching their kids get?

 

[berthesghost]

Do people complain like this in diving? Certainly the commentators never carry on the way skating commentators do, even when they disagree with the judges. It's not "WHAT FRESH HELL IS THIS?" but more "I must have missed something.

when I watch vids of famous “wuz robbed” results like Grenoble men’s or lake placid ladies I’m surprised how blasé and nonplused the commentators are about the results. Then I’m shocked at how outspoken and rush-to-judgement J&T are about things like brown’s sp axel. I think it’s just one more way T&J have “updated” commentary to cater to the younger social media raised crowd. Today everyone’s a restaurant critic thanks to yelp

 

[wouldacoulda]

US Figure Skating is going to review and potentially update the tiers to add a weighing of the tiers possibly by next season, with additional changes possible going forward. (See #3.)
http://web.icenetwork.com/news/2018/01/07/264386954

I will be attending Governing Council this year. This should be interesting.

 

[Prancer]

when I watch vids of famous “wuz robbed” results like Grenoble men’s or lake placid ladies I’m surprised how blasé and nonplused the commentators are about the results. Then I’m shocked at how outspoken and rush-to-judgement J&T are about things like brown’s sp axel. I think it’s just one more way T&J have “updated” commentary to cater to the younger social media raised crowd. Today everyone’s a restaurant critic thanks to yelp

FYI, "nonplussed" means "surprised and confused or bewildered," not "nonchalant."

Sorry, pet peeve of mine.

I would have a lot more respect for J&T's concern about Jason's triple axel and their fuming about politics if it had been equally applied to all the skaters. But it was not. Oh, they didn't call that underrotation. Ah, well. No ranting about unfair that was to skaters who were lower in the scores. No preaching about favortism and politics.

What really set my teeth on edge was their OTT carrying on over the one skater getting credit for a triple axel when he did a double. It was a clearly an entry error and would be fixed, which it was and was, as, even if you think the judges are totally corrupt, there was absolutely no reason to give that skater credit for a triple axel when he didn't do one. But you would never know it from all the

But yeah, the problem the casual fans have is the judging system because math.

 

[berthesghost]

The criteria is very clearly about this season and to a lesser extent last season. If it went back any further, Ashley Wagner would have been on the Olympic team.

A decade ago (actually, not quite that far back) Starr Andrews was whipping her hair back and forth.

gee, I thought Starr was going to 4CC because she finished 6th at her debut sr nats, not because she was 12th at jr worlds. Or is social media popularity and buzz from general public now part of BOW? I had assumed that the reason why nbc kept bragging about its Nathan hype all those years ago was because he’s a unicorn in a sport full of Cindy bortz, Dianna Stelatto, NNN, etc..

 

[ZilphaK]

Did anyone else read "The Second Mark" about the pairs competition at SLC? There was some speculation there -- maybe there was speculation elsewhere -- that the commentators reactions were integral in informing the audience reactions (not that there wouldn't have been a reaction to the skate, but maybe fanning flames into a wildfire). I mean, I suppose it's a whole "well, they were right to be outraged," as there was some sort of conspiracy, but I think it does highlight how much the commentators can inform/affect viewer reaction. Would anything have happened any differently if the commentators has said, "Well, that's figure skating for ya!"?

 

[aftershocks]

... It's expensive, most people can't afford it, it requires a very high level of dedication and focus over many years, and there's no real future in pursuing the sport...

^^ This.

Plus, antiquated competition structure and behind-the-times lack of vision administrators and former speed skaters running/ ruining things rather than actively seeking out ideas, viable new approaches, and consensus from knowledgeable people within the skating community, as well as from outside experts in relevant fields.

Did Ross Miner not get both a CS and a GP event this season? Bradie Tennell didn't just win Nationals, she also performed well in several international assignments...

There's no equivalency to their career paths, nor their disciplines, nor their ages. Anyways, why don't we just kidnap Miner, take him out to a field somewhere, shoot him and put him out of our misery already for stinking up all his total of four competitions until U.S. Nationals. [I am still checking to see how much his performances smelled]

Fall 2017 Boss BOW wow: 6th at Autumn Classic, 5th at Finlandia, and 6th at Skate America. At least the ISU judges and that croaker/slacker/choker/popper extraordinaire were consistent on something eh! Shades of Johnny Weir, stuck in 6th place at 2010 Olympics (although Johnny skated fairly clean in both programs, albeit no longer at his peak). I am going to check out Boss Miner's actual record. Hard to believe that the committee only took one overnight to check out all of these time-consuming numbers details. Did they ever go to the videotape I wonder.

That's a reach. Ross had three opportunities to do well this fall and he failed to seize them.

You know what, it's not a reach that Miner only had one GP assignment, but you're right that he was not able to seize and make more of the opportunities he received. He competed at Glacier Falls, Autumn Classic, Finlandia Trophy and Skate America. It was not for lack of trying though that Ross did not perform lights out at every event. In fact, overall his skating is quite nice, and I find him fun to watch because he has a good feel for the music as well as clean lines, good speed and some interesting moves and transitions. Some seem to feel Miner's skating lacks excitement, but I've always enjoyed his obvious enthusiasm and well put together choreo.

I am checking out Ross' performances this season and his scoring record. He's a journeyman who started out gangbusters when he first came up to seniors after recovering from injury. Both Ross Miner and Richard Dornbush were consistent, well-rounded skaters whose development and rise up the ranks was significantly impacted by the changes in quad valuation, i.e. the quad revolution that took off circa 2011.

In addition, irony of ironies, Miner and Dornbush were also impacted by US fed's bonehead non-selection process that never took place after Jeremy Abbott came in 4th at U.S. Nationals by .19. Miner and Dornbush were later clean in both their programs at 2011 Worlds (in Russia due to Japan earthquake aftershocks), but the judges treated them dismissively. Some wacky additional Skate God karma: Miner's coach is dumped off 1992 Olympic team; newbie Miner is allowed to go to Worlds for the first time in 2011 over internationally accomplished Jeremy Abbott who made a few forgivable errors in his Nats fp. Even U.S. Nats winner that year, fed fave Ryan Bradley, was perplexed by US fed not putting the GP medal-winning Abbott on the team that year.

BTW, check out the Ross Miner thread in GSD for Ross' recently aired video interview on a local Boston area television station. He may not attend 4CCs. It is reported that he hasn't yet decided whether he will compete again. Thanks for the gracious send-off to Ross USFS. Ross said he gets this text stating: "You've been selected as an alternate to the 2018 Olympic team." Oh joy, just what he always wanted.

 

[vesperholly]

Some wacky additional Skate God karma: Miner's coach is dumped off 1992 Olympic team; newbie Miner is allowed to go to Worlds for the first time in 2011 over internationally accomplished Jeremy Abbott who made a few forgivable errors in his Nats fp. Even U.S. Nats winner that year, fed fave Ryan Bradley, was perplexed by US fed not putting the GP medal-winning Abbott on the team that year.

It could very well have been after that year that body of work started to be discussed. Bradley, Miner and Dornbush went to 2011 Worlds and promptly lost the 3rd spot, which we didn't get back until 2015.

BTW, check out the Ross Miner thread in GSD for Ross' recently aired video interview on a local Boston area television station. He may not attend 4CCs. It is reported that he hasn't yet decided whether he will compete again. Thanks for the gracious send-off to Ross USFS. Ross said he gets this text stating: "You've been selected as an alternate to the 2018 Olympic team." Oh joy, just what he always wanted.

That is seriously sad. USFS should tell people in person.

Attending 4CCs is a risk for Ross. If he goes and skates poorly, people will use that as justification for keeping him off the team. If he skates really well, it feels even worse for him that he couldn't go to the Olympics and fans the flames of controversy. I don't blame him for wanting to leave his own skating on such a high note.

 

[barbk]

<snipped>
You know what, it's not a reach that Miner only had one GP assignment, but you're right that he was not able to seize and make more of the opportunities he received. He competed at Glacier Falls, Autumn Classic, Finlandia Trophy and Skate America. It was not for lack of trying though that Ross did not perform lights out at every event. In fact, overall his skating is quite nice, and I find him fun to watch because he has a good feel for the music as well as clean lines, good speed and some interesting moves and transitions. Some seem to feel Miner's skating lacks excitement, but I've always enjoyed his obvious enthusiasm and well put together choreo.

I am checking out Ross' performances this season and his scoring record. He's a journeyman who started out gangbusters when he first came up to seniors after recovering from injury. Both Ross Miner and Richard Dornbush were consistent, well-rounded skaters whose development and rise up the ranks was significantly impacted by the changes in quad valuation, i.e. the quad revolution that took off circa 2011.

I can't see how any of this makes the case that he deserved to go to the Olympics. What it does say is that he might have had a much better career if he wasn't in the quad generation. The same could be said of so many skaters. Remarkably, some skaters -- like Jason Brown -- have managed exceedingly wonderful careers despite not really having a quad at all.

BTW, check out the Ross Miner thread in GSD for Ross' recently aired video interview on a local Boston area television station. He may not attend 4CCs. It is reported that he hasn't yet decided whether he will compete again. Thanks for the gracious send-off to Ross USFS. Ross said he gets this text stating: "You've been selected as an alternate to the 2018 Olympic team." Oh joy, just what he always wanted.

That was rude on the part of the USFSA, imo. Ross deserved a personal phone call before the other athletes were called. I hope they change this part of the process. Texting news like that is so many kinds of wrong.

 

[olympic]

There are comments that BOW allows a small, select group to dominate and leaves skaters out in the cold without a chance. But, there are solutions: If you are an underdog, understand that you are competing for a Fed with a big talent pool and if you have assignments, ensure that you are maximizing points at each competition. Win ugly. Rotate and fall rather than pop. Use hold on to your hat Medvedeva Tanos as variations to gain GOE, etc.

Ross is being talked about here. He was bailing on the 3A earlier this season and I think even let 3-3 combos go. These are not quads we are talking about. If he had been stable on those elements at Autumn Classic and SA, the conversation in the selection committee may have been different. Ross has great SS and the committee is not biased against Ross. They want the best and he could’ve offered that with a better season.

That said, I think the committee should have put 2017 Worlds on a lower tier and really concentrated on this season