Mark Mitchell: "Why would they come back to the rink?"

[kwanfan1818]

And this is a problem. Accountability is only possible when people have information. It should have been made clear at the time what was under consideration. I agree with whoever up thread posted that it really should only be the last spot which is subject to BOW, and really only if the other skater in the comparison has a legitimate shot at the podium. JMHO

I would agree, but I think the legitimate shot at the podium could include the team podium, as in they could be a role-player (strong SP skater, strong FS), even if they don't have a shot at the individual podium.

 

[Inessence]

Back in the day, Angela's mom was a very active poster on RSSIF.

Do you recall what her handle was on RSSIF?

 

[Vash01]

I just recently and quickly became a die-hard hockey fan. There are some intricacies of the sport, for sure, but it's pretty simple: Puck goes in net = 1 point. Ref makes a bad call and throws your guy in the penalty box, the crowd boos and may throw a catfish on the ice. You high stick another guy on purpose, and you get smacked around the next time you're on the ice. It's sort of refreshing, in a way, in its simplicity. At the same time, I find it to be very artistic in a "beautiful game" kind of way, although no one gets points for that except Sidney Crosby.

I don't watch football often, but again, the point system is pretty simple and there are a few ref calls for holding, or jumping the gun (or whatever). I can get the gist pretty quickly. It's not often touchdowns are called back, and when they are and I ask, I usually just get a grunt from my husband about the blah-blah rule. But the number of blah-blah rules aren't so numerous or complicated that I haven't heard it before or don't get the gist.

I don't want figure skating to become a beauty pageant, not by a long shot. But I've been in enough rooms where judges or coaches and even tech specialists have been scratching their heads over the spin call or arguing over what makes a passing loop in MIF -- I had two judges get in an argument once over my daughter's step sequence during a critique, and one judge was telling the other that she was judging by some older/outdated standard, and there were amusing death stares back and forth. I LOVE figure skating and am a rulebook nerd, and I still have to go back and check exactly why something was given a certain downgrade (especially with spins...oye.)

I don't know what the answer is. Maybe there isn't. But there are enough people "in the know" who are saying "this isn't sitting right" over the Ross thing, that if there's any time to dig in and look/wonder/examine what could be changed, this is again (sigh!) one of those times.

There is subjectivity in hockey and football too (I watch both), but it is limited to penalties usually. Sometimes there are disagreements and somestimes the calls are blatantly wrong, to the extent they change the outcome of the game. Yes, there are some protests but they move on. In figure skating though people never seem to completely move on (myself included). I don't know why.

For Hockey, I don't know what criteria they use to select the Olympic teams. Sometimes it seems unfair to not select a beloved and talented player who has proven himself. Still, people move on, understanding that the Olympics are once in 4 years, so the opportunity may never come again. They move on.

Why do we hold on to the disagreements?I would like to know.

 

[barbk]

And this is a problem. Accountability is only possible when people have information. It should have been made clear at the time what was under consideration. I agree with whoever up thread posted that it really should only be the last spot which is subject to BOW, and really only if the other skater in the comparison has a legitimate shot at the podium. JMHO

Skaters knew Body of Work was in the mix. They were repeatedly told that, and you'd have to be blind not to have seen that in play after 2014 with Ashley. How do you think Ross would evaluate his Body of Work internationally? I'd give it a B-. I'm sure he trained hard and tried his best, but his best was well behind other American competitors. I don't know how hard you'd have to weight Nationals on a numeric basis to come up with a formula where Ross' Body of Work exceeds Adam's, but I'm guessing that you'd have to have Nationals at a tremendously high weight. Vincent had meh results (4th & 9th) on the fall GP, and 2nd at Finlandia, followed by 3rd at Nationals, but any weighting of last season's results would have him right up there - 2nd at Nationals, winning Junior Worlds, 1st in the Bavarian Open.

I'm guessing you'd have to weight current Nationals at 90% or higher in order to come up with an evaluation where Ross's Body of Work exceeds Adam's or Vincent's.

 

[gkelly]

I understand that replays are necessary to confirm elements, but I think they could do away with < completely.

In that case, the cutoff for downgrading should be 180 degrees, rather than the 90 degrees it was up to 2010. However, judges should still be free to deduct -1 to -3 for underrotation on jumps that were not called as downgraded.

I don't know what the answer is. Maybe there isn't. But there are enough people "in the know" who are saying "this isn't sitting right" over the Ross thing, that if there's any time to dig in and look/wonder/examine what could be changed, this is again (sigh!) one of those times.

Well, "the Ross thing" is about team selection, which is (these days, thankfully) completely separate from how the results of the competition are determined.

It is true that both the scoring and the team selection criteria have become more complicated than they were 15+ years ago and both are therefore more difficult for lay audiences to comprehend.

But it would be perfectly possible to use 6.0 or some other apparently simple scoring system to determine results and a complex body of work standard for selecting the Olympic team, just as it would be possible to use IJS or some other complex and/or more objectively detailed means of scoring results and a strict order-of-Nationals-finish approach to choosing the Olympic team.

The scoring system is on the ISU. The way USFS selects its Olympic team is on USFS.

Personally, I think the best solution (although no perfect one exists) is to have a set of supervisor judges that hold the other judges accountable for mistakes in real time, or during tests just to hold them accountable.

It could be possible to get extra supervisor judges to oversee the panels at important qualifying competitions. Although why not just have those supposedly more experienced/more competent officials judge the events themselves?

At test sessions, though, it just wouldn't be feasible. There is already a shortage of test judges, and clubs that don't have at least 3 judges living locally, let alone gold judges or competition judges, already have to spend significant money to bring in enough judges to judge their test sessions. It would be a real burden on clubs . . . translating to a financial burden on the skaters as the test fees go up . . . to require more and higher level judges at every test session.

Using hockey and football as inspiration for Os, Worlds and 4CCs spots, ala all-star teams.
1) Your season best scorer coming into Nationals gets a guanteed spot.
2) The next 4 highest scorers (possibly above a score floor) are pooled and the highest finisher at Nationals gets one.

What if your top 3 highest scorers before Nationals are all within 1 point of each other, and then at Nationals the top scorer bombs and finishes far below numbers 2 and 3 coming into Nationals?

Or, say, what if the top scorer coming in is an inconsistent newcomer who had one great fall competition with a generous panel and other much lower-scored events, whereas the next-highest-scorer is a multiple, reigning world medalist returning from injury after missing the fall season? And then they finish 3rd and 2nd (or 5th and 4th), respectively, at Nationals?

If the high scorer knows their Olympic spot is guaranteed, they don't have to push themselves at Nationals and can save themselves for the big event. Which is a good thing if that that skater or team really is far superior to the rest of the field, but not so much if their high score was a relative fluke and an off-podium Nationals result is more in line with their usual level of performance.

Plenty of other possible permutations.

3) The remaining podium at Nationals plus the 3 left from the #2 pool are grouped for a committee decision. Everyone from that group is guaranteed at least one of Worlds/4CCs.

Currently there are always 3 spots available at 4Cs. But that is not always true for Worlds and Olympics, especially in pairs for the US.

Do these proposed rules only apply in Olympic years, when there are a minimum of 5 senior championship slots available? (For US pairs this year, there are 6 because of the fluky mismatch between the Olympic and World spots.)

So say there are 6 pair spots available, 1 at Olympics, 3 at Four Continents, 2 at Worlds.

You've guaranteed the one Olympic spot to one team based on one high score so that they don't even have to place or score well at Nationals to take that spot.

Then depending on how they each score before and at Nationals you could have more than 5 teams in your #2 and 3 pools (including perhaps a new champion whose Nationals score far outpaced the pre-Nationals high-scorer guaranteed the Olympic spot) but only 5 non-Olympic assignments to offer them.

That's the problem with hard-and-fast rules -- they don't always cover the specifics of every real-life situation. Rules that may result in the best possible team for this year's ladies may end up with a counterintuitive result for next year's ladies or this year's men.

 

[kwanfan1818]

Skaters knew Body of Work was in the mix. They were repeatedly told that, and you'd have to be blind not to have seen that in play after 2014 with Ashley. How do you think Ross would evaluate his Body of Work internationally?

I think he might say that in 2014, when BOW came into play, the Nationals silver medalist, who had only junior results, however strong, was safe, and it was the National bronze medalist who wasn't sent in lieu of someone with as strong BOW.

Had Miner won Nationals bronze, I don't think either Miner or Mitchell would have expected him to be on the Olympic team, even if they hoped that the International Committee might not think Rippon's BOW was as strong as Wagner's in 2014. And certainly not on the Worlds team, after Aaron was sent to 2014 Worlds in place of Brown.

 

[barbk]

...but they were excruciatingly clear that BOW applied to all slots -- that not even the national champion was guaranteed to be named.

 

[kwanfan1818]

...but they were excruciatingly clear that BOW applied to all slots -- that not even the national champion was guaranteed to be named.

And if in 2014 the National Champion was guaranteed a slot, that means they were excruciatingly clear in 2014 that the BOW applied to silver and bronze, and the silver medalist, with no senior resume, was safe.

 

[Vash01]

And if in 2014 the National Champion was guaranteed a slot, that means they were excruciatingly clear in 2014 that the BOW applied to silver and bronze, and the silver medalist, with no senior resume, was safe.

That's the part I don't understand. How can someone without a senior BOW be safe?

 

[kwanfan1818]

JGPF might have been one of the 2014 BOW criteria, but Edmunds had no senior resume. (I have the doc on my home computer, but I'm in Vancouver.)

 

[gkelly]

What does "safe" mean in this context?

That the committee won't even weigh your results and Nationals performance against any other skaters, because the silver medal by virtue of being a silver medal saves you a spot?

Or that in that particular case the records and Nationals performances of the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th place finishers were all weighed against each other and the consensus of the committee ended up being to take the 2nd and 4th skaters and not the 3rd? If the latter, then implicitly even a slightly different mix of inputs for those skaters in places 2-4 could result in a different decision.

 

[vesperholly]

Back in the day, Angela's mom was a very active poster on RSSIF.

No way! What was her posting name?? I was on RSSIF (and RSSIR)!

 

[overedge]

No way! What was her posting name?? I was on RSSIF (and RSSIR)!

I'm guessing it wasn't Chuckie

 

[kittyjake5]

And if in 2014 the National Champion was guaranteed a slot, that means they were excruciatingly clear in 2014 that the BOW applied to silver and bronze, and the silver medalist, with no senior resume, was safe.

That's the part I don't understand. How can someone without a senior BOW be safe?

TBH when Ashley was selected in 2014 for the team I was not familiar at all with BOW criteria. I was sad for Miral but understood from the knowledgeable posters on
FSU why they choose Ashley and I agreed. I wondered back then was the BOW applied to Polina (maybe it was) or being the Silver Medalist she was "safe".
Initially I thought the same about Ross, being the Silver Medalist he won't get bumped and the Bronze would.

I knew that Adam would be placed on the team and I have no problem with that
he earned it.

 

[Willin]

It could be possible to get extra supervisor judges to oversee the panels at important qualifying competitions. Although why not just have those supposedly more experienced/more competent officials judge the events themselves?

At test sessions, though, it just wouldn't be feasible. There is already a shortage of test judges, and clubs that don't have at least 3 judges living locally, let alone gold judges or competition judges, already have to spend significant money to bring in enough judges to judge their test sessions. It would be a real burden on clubs . . . translating to a financial burden on the skaters as the test fees go up . . . to require more and higher level judges at every test session.

I don't necessarily think this should be for club competitions or tests, as there are plenty of skaters competing/testing who aren't going to the Olympics or who are just doing it for fun. There's no need to get that serious with smaller scale things, and I agree that it would be near impossible for a lot of clubs to pull off.

But certainly at Nationals you would hope that the panel is very experienced. Perhaps the supervisors can be international judges or outside IJS experts who are not allowed to judge a US National competition, but who can offer feedback - while clubs probably don't have the money for that, I'd imagine USFS does. Idk if the US has enough ISU certified judges to fill a Senior/Junior National judging panel, but I subscribe to the idea that especially in an Olympic year they should use every ISU certified judge they have to fill the panels for each discipline. At the very least, every judge on a Senior National panel should be working towards the ISU certification.

I'd also like to see USFS bring in international judges for Champs Camp. Certainly the US has a different skating aesthetic than judges from other countries, so it would be good to get feedback on how to change programs for an international panel before the international season kicks off. Maybe they already do this?

 

[vesperholly]

And if in 2014 the National Champion was guaranteed a slot, that means they were excruciatingly clear in 2014 that the BOW applied to silver and bronze, and the silver medalist, with no senior resume, was safe.

I remember a LOT of people saying in 2014 that Polina should not have been on the team, and were shocked that Polina was named and Mirai was not. I know I certainly was. Polina hadn't even skated in a senior international. Plus her PCS scores at Nationals, like Bradie's, were ridiculous. If the judges had been more restrained in their PCS, she might have been 3rd and less controversially lost the spot.

Pairs was also pretty controversial in 2014 IMO. Zhang/Bartholomay beat Denney/Coughlin by 0.29 points and were named to the team, even though D/C had a bronze and a 4th place on the GP coming into the competition.

 

[kwanfan1818]

What does "safe" mean in this context?

That the committee won't even weigh your results and Nationals performance against any other skaters, because the silver medal by virtue of being a silver medal saves you a spot?

Or that in that particular case the records and Nationals performances of the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th place finishers were all weighed against each other and the consensus of the committee ended up being to take the 2nd and 4th skaters and not the 3rd? If the latter, then implicitly even a slightly different mix of inputs for those skaters in places 2-4 could result in a different decision.

Safe, in that silver + weak/weakish BOW or junior-only BOW, can only be trumped by two Wagner or greater level BODs in 3rd and 4th, not by a somewhat better BOW, or some senior BOW (Nagasu vs. Edmunds), when there are three spots. That's what Edmonds going in 2014 suggested, and, of course, people look at precedent.

 

[VGThuy]

Yeah I think 2014 was a lot more inconsistent with how they applied things, especially with how some skaters were given the Olympics but then not trusted to go to Worlds to help retain spots. I think with 2018 they seem to have gone stricter with the BOW as evidenced by the Men's selection and none of the other selections seemed to deviate from that really. I think with 2014, the committee had more discretion and flexibility. Who knows, maybe if Mirai had Vincent Zhou's like BOW (replace 2017 Junior Worlds with something she was eligible for and on the same tier) she would have been on the team in 2014.

 

[kwanfan1818]

2014 was the first time they actually used the criteria, as opposed to having BOW criteria for a number of years for Worlds (at least, don't remember 2010 Olympics), and ignoring them for skaters with better resumes than Wagner or Rippon. Now they've used them differently. I'd understand the decision if it made sense in the context of the TE, but I don't see it, and one Man (at least) isn't even in the mix for TE.

The US could have quite a battle to retain bronze this year in TE. For 2022, China will be gunning for a team medal even more than this season. Canada is going to be replacing a lot of skaters after this seasons, and the silver medal could be up for grabs.

 

[Tavi]

I think he might say that in 2014, when BOW came into play, the Nationals silver medalist, who had only junior results, however strong, was safe, and it was the National bronze medalist who wasn't sent in lieu of someone with as strong BOW.

Had Miner won Nationals bronze, I don't think either Miner or Mitchell would have expected him to be on the Olympic team, even if they hoped that the International Committee might not think Rippon's BOW was as strong as Wagner's in 2014. And certainly not on the Worlds team, after Aaron was sent to 2014 Worlds in place of Brown.

Except that in 2017, Ross not only had a much worse season than either Jason or Max did in 2014, but a much worse season than Adam and Jason did in 2017 (in 2014 Jason had strong senior (not junior) results (silver at Sr B, 3/5 in his GPs), and had scores competitive with those of other US men).

There’s really never been anything to suggest that the Mirai/Ashley situation was limited to its facts (only bump bronze medalist, and only then for someone with extremely strong body of work). Beyond that, since 2014, there have been two instances where a male silver medalist was bypassed for Worlds assignments. With the advent of the Olympic team event, it should have been easy to anticipate that the Olympic and Worlds selection processes would be more closely aligned.

 

[acraven]

I don't think it was ever established that Angela Nikodinov's mom was a regular poster on RSSIF. There was a poster with a name like "Podium99"--something like that, anyway--who claimed to have a competitive child and made an allusion to eastern Europe at some point along the way. Folks jumped to the conclusion that there was a Nikodinov connection. Later on, someone suggested that the poster might have been Trifun Zivanovic's mom.

I don't know either of the families, but my gut puts me in the Zivanovic camp. The posting style was sort of blunt and vaguely bragging, which was the very antithesis of Angela's on-ice persona, whereas Trifun played hockey until he was about 18. I thought at the time that the posts were more likely to have come from a hockey mom (not that I've every met one, except for Charlie White's mom).

So I don't think folks should try to dredge up ancient rssif posts to see what Nikodinov's mom wrote.

 

[ZilphaK]

Just make it easy in Olympic years...if there are three, top three from Nationals go. Two, top two from Nationals go. One, top one goes. Make Nationals the qualifier. You have a bad skate, you lose, just like every other time you have a bad skate. Done. Simple. Boom. You're welcome.

 

[snoopy]

Minority report: I'd rather see figure skating withdraw from the Olympics and emphasize more the artistry than attempt to be more like other winter Olympic sports.

Heh. I said that once before. It wasn't a popular opinion.

 

[snoopy]

Just make it easy in Olympic years...if there are three, top three from Nationals go. Two, top two from Nationals go. One, top one goes. Make Nationals the qualifier. You have a bad skate, you lose, just like every other time you have a bad skate. Done. Simple. Boom. You're welcome.

I don't like this idea. I'm good with the current method.

 

[VGThuy]

One could argue that under the current system, if one has a bad skate, they do lose...the National title/higher medal.

 

[ZilphaK]

Heh. I said that once before. It wasn't a popular opinion.

Or just make it a total X-games style jumping competition. Put in some ice ramps and half-pipes. Leave the artistry to ice dance and pairs. Also, add synchro.

Wasn't there talk at one point of doing away with short program all together and adding synchro to Olympics? Am I conflating two conversations? No short program would certainly make the sport less expensive for a lot of families.

If you need a second score, maybe add a written test or something. (OK, I'm getting punchy. I'll vamoose. )

 

[BlueRidge]

Heh. I said that once before. It wasn't a popular opinion.

I think most skating fans like a balance of art and athleticism. Its just when the start talking about how to make skating popular with people who don't like skating that they start sounding like they want to totally ruin it.

 

[ZilphaK]

One could argue that under the current system, if one has a bad skate, they do lose...the National title/higher medal.

Yeah, but every kid ever, as soon as they tell someone they are a figure skater, hears the next question is "Are you going to the Olympics?" It's like when you're a writer but all your writing is online. People always ask, "Have you ever been published for real, in print?" The Olympics is the real prize, the one that possibly puts your name out there beyond the four-year cycle and begins to pay back your costs plus the cost of your hip replacements and arthritis drugs, etc. and gets you on Dancing with the Stars. There aren't too many skaters that "regular folks" have heard of...I've done this quiz before and people generally remember Scott Hamilton, Michelle Kwan, Kristi Yamaguchi, and of course, Nancy and Tonya. Oh, and maybe Tara and Johnny, maybe. I'd guess that 9 out of 10 non-skating fans will tell you Michelle Kwan is an Olympic gold medalist.

In Olympic years, winning the National title but not going to the Olympics...I'm sure most skaters would rather say they are (more than) a little OK with losing the National title and gold medal -- or silver or bronze -- if they still get to go to the Olympics. A National title in skating is not like winning the Super Bowl or World Series. The Olympics is the Super Bowl.

 

[snoopy]

^to me, that is why an Olympic spot should be based on a series of good showings and not one night of fluke.

 

[VGThuy]

I think in the grand scheme of things, winning a National title, just for its own sake, is really amazing and an incredible achievement. Sure being an Olympian is so prestigious and rare that it would outshine everything else in comparison, but one should also look at Nationals as its own competition that will be used in consideration for an Olympic/4CC/Worlds assignment. I think that's what your analogy is closer to rather than seeing the Olympics as the prize of Nationals as it's really a separate competition that one may enter if they do well at Nationals among other competitions (think of Nationals as the last game before we find out who makes it to the play-offs).