Lookism in Ice Dancing

[chameleonster]

For the record, I don't know which young junior dance teams that are being discussed as not being conventionally attractive enough for dance, and I would rather not try to guess, but my instinct is that they'll probably be fine. Most people don't peak at thirteen, and young skaters are still figuring out what styling works for them. Many(I might even say most) attractive people had an awkward phase in their teenage years before they grew into their features/changed their hair or makeup/ etc.

 

[Sasha is DIVINE]

Papadakis (who isn't like ugly or anything but I wouldn't say she is stunning or beautiful), but she is blessed with a good-looking partner so I don't know if she counts

 

[Bigbird]

Beauty in ice dance, it seems to me, is more about being tall and thin with good posture. If you are also considered to have beautiful facial features these are a plus, but not critical, that's why we have make-up artists. Also, it's about how you use those attributes, meaning having an easy grace, a sense of musicality while also mastering your technique. If you only have a beautiful exterior, the judges seem to only go with a team so far.

 

[Spun Silver]

Papadakis (who isn't like ugly or anything but I wouldn't say she is stunning or beautiful), but she is blessed with a good-looking partner so I don't know if she counts

She is gorgeous in a unique way! She could easily be a model!

 

[binbinwinwin]

Different strokes for different folks but I have only found skaters unattractive when they do ugly things, they're all beautiful.

 

[Jun Y]

I find Papadakis to be quite beautiful. If she were a singles or pairs skater or in another sport, her beauty would not be questioned. But alas this is ice dancing. Today's standard, or expectation on ice dancers, is too high.

I used to believe that skating "beautifully" is critically important in figure skating, especially ID, but now I'm not so sure. Or perhaps it's time to examine what the definition of beauty is in ice dancing. Monolithic and absurdly strict standards of beauty may contribute to the lack of diversity and risk-taking in the sport. If we do not expect ice dancers to be pretty and skate pretty in the same way, we might get more varied styles in both looks and genre/subject of dance. For example, could we see more humorous and story-telling free dances with technical prowess by ice dancers who are relatively short or not very flexible? Or angular and abstract dances with staccato movements and electronic dance music?

 

[Anyasnake]

I find Papadakis to be quite beautiful. If she were a singles or pairs skater or in another sport, her beauty would not be questioned. But alas this is ice dancing. Today's standard, or expectation on ice dancers, is a bit insane.

I used to believe that skating "beautifully" is critically important in figure skating, especially ID, but now I'm not so sure. Or perhaps it's time to examine what the definition of beauty is in ice dancing.

Honestly her "beauty" isn't questionned, she is a gorgeous woman. Just because she isn't the "typical" beauty (perfect little straight nose, flashing teeth) doesn't mean that she isn't beautiful. It varies from countries to countries.

Well, talking about skating "beautifully" what do you mean by that ? Because the one exemple of "really beautiful" skating I would give you is actually Papadakis/Cizeron.
There are some really "beautiful/Gorgeous" programs that you can find : Satoko, Carolina... lately Alena Kostornaia.
All of that being really nothing about skaters' appearance, purely the beauty of figure skating.
Do you have some example of "beautiful skating" that you could give us ? It could be nice to compare.

 

[Jun Y]

Well, talking about skating "beautifully" what do you mean by that ? Because the one exemple of "really beautiful" skating I would give you is actually Papadakis/Cizeron.
There are some really "beautiful/Gorgeous" programs that you can find : Satoko, Carolina... lately Alena Kostornaia.
All of that being really nothing about skaters' appearance, purely the beauty of figure skating.

All of these are classically, uncontroversially beautiful skating, but I would like to see the boundaries being pushed farther out of these styles. For example, Adrian Schultheiss' psychiatric free program and Pechalat/Bourzat's straight jacket free dance. How rare were these programs and how long have we been dances that are not necessarily beautiful but interesting or "dark"?

To put it bluntly, I would like to see some "uglier" ice dance programs. Technically difficult, conceptually different, funny or abstract, rugged or discordant, and not conventionally beautiful or universally pleasing.

 

[Anyasnake]

All of these are classically, uncontroversially beautiful skating, but I would like to see the boundaries being pushed farther out of these styles. For example, Adrian Schultheiss' psychiatric free program and Pechalat/Bourzat's straight jacket free dance. How rare were these programs and how long have we been without such?

I don't really know what you mean by that. Searching a completely out of the box type of program/skating but still beautiful ? Something never seen before ?

 

[chapis]

I think that Victoria S., Madison Chock and Stepanova would be less successful if they were not so pretty.

Eta 1. And now I wonder how many skaters choose her/his partner based in looks.

 

[skategal]

All of these are classically, uncontroversially beautiful skating, but I would like to see the boundaries being pushed farther out of these styles. For example, Adrian Schultheiss' psychiatric free program and Pechalat/Bourzat's straight jacket free dance. How rare were these programs and how long have we been dances that are not necessarily beautiful but interesting or "dark"?

To put it bluntly, I would like to see some "uglier" ice dance programs. Technically difficult, conceptually different, funny or abstract, rugged or discordant, and not conventionally beautiful or universally pleasing.

I think we have seen some in the past.

The Duchesney's 'Missing' comes to mind as well as Bourne/Kratz 'Riverdance' and Cappelini/Lanotte 'Requiem for a Dream' but yes, it's been a while.

 

[misskarne]

I think this thread is what's ugly.

 

[Aerobicidal]

I used to work at an international school, and we had many students who made casual comments about people's weight and appearance that would have generally been considered inappropriate by U.S. standards. One of the things I like about FSU is I get insight on different cultural norms and taboos. For instance--and this is a really random example--one year a Scandinavian (Swedish, I think) synchro team did a program about racial justice. Seeing a group of mostly blond women skate to "Strange Fruit" made me think about how such a program would be received in the U.S. (i.e. not the same as it would be in Sweden!). I think similar arguments were made about Anissina's Olympic-winning FD but that was a long time before I started following skating.

I'm not going to comment on skaters who I think are more or less conventionally attractive, because from my own subjective cultural perspective, I don't think it's okay for me to do that. That isn't a norm that I expect everyone else on FSU or, for that matter, on Earth to follow.

One thing I will say, though, is that I think lookism (or whatever term should be used) is a powerful and often subconscious force. I can't count how many times I have seen/heard people make comments like "That's an ugly dress on such a pretty girl" or "She bombed her program but at least she looked pretty" or "Your arguments are terrible but you have a beautiful smile." Last year, a woman who'd gone to my former school died in a car accident and I saw dozens of comments online that basically all emphasized how her death was particularly tragic because she was beautiful.

It's a reminder for me to be more vigilant because I really hope I'm not saying, doing, or thinking along those lines, but it's one of those things where you can never be sure. On the other hand, our society is immersed in it to the extent that I wouldn't blame anyone for accidentally saying something problematic. I had my own gaffe last semester: I try to be really careful about using gender-neutral language but I once called a friend who uses they/them/theirs "she." These are tricky issues and it takes time to reverse the sexism, heterosexism, etc. that's been part of our world forever.

Now, I realize this isn't really about ice dancing, so I'll add that I personally love programs that aren't supposed to be "beautiful" (or whatever word one prefers there) like Khokhlova's Night on Bald Mountain and Zhiganshina's zombies. And to be clear, I'm saying the programs weren't traditionally beautiful IMO--nothing about the looks of the people who skated them.

 

[Alilou]

I think we have seen some in the past.

The Duchesney's 'Missing' comes to mind as well as Bourne/Kratz 'Riverdance' and Cappelini/Lanotte 'Requiem for a Dream' but yes, it's been a while.

And Zhiganzhina/Ghazi's fabulous zombie routine!

 

[Spun Silver]

Honestly her "beauty" isn't questionned, she is a gorgeous woman. Just because she isn't the "typical" beauty (perfect little straight nose, flashing teeth) doesn't mean that she isn't beautiful. It varies from countries to countries.

Well, talking about skating "beautifully" what do you mean by that ? Because the one exemple of "really beautiful" skating I would give you is actually Papadakis/Cizeron.
There are some really "beautiful/Gorgeous" programs that you can find : Satoko, Carolina... lately Alena
All of that being really nothing about skaters' appearance, purely the beauty of figure skating.
Do you have some example of "beautiful skating" that you could give us ? It could be nice to compare.

Yes, to be honest, it wouldn't matter what kind of face Gabriella had, the way she moves is so beautiful that she IS beautiful. Lots of things go into beauty, not just facial structure.

 

[Erin]

I think there is looksism in all of the disciplines, but it's probably less blatant in singles and pairs because if a mistake is made on a jump or a throw, it's harder to prop up the more attractive skater. I'm not sure that it's even deliberate, but it's perhaps part of the halo effect where you see someone who is attractive and you are more inclined to think favorably of their skating skills. I don't want to pick on any skaters in particular, but I can think of one retired singles skater who was absolutely gorgeous but I thought had mediocre skating skills (her stroking was a bit choppy) and fairly generic programs but always had really high PCS scores, even when she didn't skate well. Eventually, I attributed it to Skating While Pretty. It wouldn't surprise me if more of that goes on in ice dance. And if skaters who are not getting the SWP bonus eventually self-select out of the sport.

 

[Jun Y]

There is a vast range of real people between beautiful and ugly, where 99.9% of us reside. Yet some seem to suggest that any mention of less than beautiful must equate ugly. That must be a cultural thing. It's as if the word "ordinary" is derogatory or worse. What I think is that an insistance on beauty can restrict freedom and imagination. Being ordinary can be liberating.

 

[chapis]

I think there is looksism in all of the disciplines, but it's probably less blatant in singles and pairs because if a mistake is made on a jump or a throw, it's harder to prop up the more attractive skater. I'm not sure that it's even deliberate, but it's perhaps part of the halo effect where you see someone who is attractive and you are more inclined to think favorably of their skating skills. I don't want to pick on any skaters in particular, but I can think of one retired singles skater who was absolutely gorgeous but I thought had mediocre skating skills (her stroking was a bit choppy) and fairly generic programs but always had really high PCS scores, even when she didn't skate well. Eventually, I attributed it to Skating While Pretty. It wouldn't surprise me if more of that goes on in ice dance. And if skaters who are not getting the SWP bonus eventually self-select out of the sport.

You were not the only one, I remember that in every competition where she participated, many people talked about the Beauty bonus. Since her retirement, that term is no longer used as much.

 

[Bigbird]

I think that Victoria S., Madison Chock and Stepanova would be less successful if they were not so pretty.

Eta 1. And now I wonder how many skaters choose her/his partner based in looks.

LOL. Go talk to Katsalapov, Victoria is his muse/inspiration. He doesn't need a partner to discuss the work or talk about the real issues as it interferes with his process. But Russia is going to support them vigorously going forwards due to his talents and their potential regardless of their wild inconsistency. But if a team having the right qualities were to burst onto the scene they would be an afterthought. They are given the time of day in part due to their looks.

 

[aftershocks]

I can only think of Torvill and Dean as more or less average, and I think Margolio is average for an Italian guy

There's nothing wrong with any of the skaters' looks whom you have named. And although I also have an inkling of what you may be trying to get at, your phrasing and approach is awkward and off-putting. Of course, there have been many threads here pertaining to "Best-looking skaters," and "Best-looking ice dancers," and celebrities who resemble skaters, plus PSOTY awards, etc. Therefore this kind of discussion is not completely out-of-bounds, but it is crossing the line to say we should name 'unattractive' skaters. That's not nice. As the cliche goes, "beauty is in the eye of the beholder."

I've always felt that Christopher Dean is quite handsome, in addition to being a genius. And Jayne Torvill, his partner in divine and innovative ice-dancing always seemed to have effortless ability, in addition to heart and soul, as well as tireless strength and endurance in keeping up with Chris. Ain't that the truth!
https://i.pinimg.com/originals/7f/49/ef/7f49ef8d593b5b7b324f14a6f8a57b9b.jpg
https://www.thesun.co.uk/tvandshowb...ll-christopher-dean-banned-rink-no-insurance/
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fEHsR679g1M

The 'average for an Italian guy' reference is all kinds of "What are you getting at?!" Are you saying 'Italian guy' by definition means 'handsome,' and therefore Margaglio doesn't live up to some kind of stereotypical standard?? IMHO, Margaglio is quite attractive. I don't know much about his personality or anything, but he sure was able to survive the BF-P death stare, and that's something, no? IMHO, Margaglio's skating ability might be termed 'average,' but not so his looks. He does have a rather high forehead, but so what! Some might love that about his looks.
http://www.absoluteskating.com/interviews/2011margaglio/IMG_7976_kopiera.jpg
http://delivery.gettyimages.com/xr/...59B9C9803A659EADC571AA452BAE4958B3516DC809422

look at how Shen and Zhao looked when they started and how they looked later.

? S/Z looked young and raw when they started out. They gained polish and maturity over time, especially having the opportunity to compete at Worlds every year. They've both aged like fine wine, and their best performances are unforgettable! Trip down memory lane: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PYuRHZMNCeE

And, speaking of attractive, here's one of the best ice dance teams ever. So talented and so sexy together... Now that I look back, I notice that Marina had somewhat short arms (or it's an optical illusion caused by the camera angle). Anyway, she sure did know how to use everything she had to the fullest, including a partnership made in heaven ... (actually made through determination, hard work and fortuitous magic)
http://www.gettyimages.com/detail/n...izerat-of-france-show-their-picture-id1635286
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mdsrJwv0zOw

More memory lane greatness. One of the sexiest and most undermarked teams ever:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mdij7eJeEzY Steaming up the ice! I once saw him in person. So unbelievably handsome, with looks like an Adonis, and he knew it.

Be still my heart:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pc_hSrLA4VQ Sexy, sexy and oh so talented (And oh boy, coach Zhulin in the kiss 'n cry back when he still had most of his hair and his Adonis looks )
http://www.gettyimages.com/detail/n...r-during-the-us-figure-at-picture-id563561533

Papadakis (who isn't like ugly or anything but I wouldn't say she is stunning or beautiful), but she is blessed with a good-looking partner so I don't know if she counts

This gorgeous lady definitely counts! Papadakis is both stunning and beautiful IMHO! She has her own unique beauty -- very Greek, very French, very Gabby Papadakis! Kind of outstanding and indefinable like Audrey Hepburn and Barbara Streisand combined. Like a Botticelli and/or Raphael painting come to life! And with Guillaume on the ice, be still my heart!!!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F9-ByeMtpO0
https://www.famousbirthdays.com/headshots/gabriella-papadakis-1.jpg
http://ice.edeaskates.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2015/01/Gabriella-Papadakis-06-1.jpg
https://qph.ec.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-d3961320a956f180fd64a23268c85fff-c
https://lastfm-img2.akamaized.net/i/u/770x0/ec7d2232f26a4e76ce4ac84dc66f2045.jpg
https://4.bp.blogspot.com/-dATTnmAKlTc/VZQgE5xz7zI/AAAAAAAEnF0/C92HBkJRcn8/s1600/Sandro+Botticelli+-+The+Birth+of+Venus%2C+1485+%2825%29.jpg
https://i.pinimg.com/736x/9a/92/20/9a9220ab98da588f72c15ef155ac92d6--high-renaissance-raffaello.jpg

And these two together! The camera must have been having an orgasm. If Gabby took it, all she had to do was point and shoot!
https://78.media.tumblr.com/f99d957876d9a86330e1be3e6cdc0ca3/tumblr_p0tmj2xnqS1sbk6x5o2_500.png
Aaaroooo! The skate gods were working over time when these two were born!

The bestest wuzrobbed ice dance team ever!
https://www.gannett-cdn.com/-mm-/23...lis/2014/02/18//1392770995000-257-archive.JPG
One judge's excuse for these two not winning over the Russians was lame, offensive, and ugly. But nothing was done about it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TQtsCOm9Byk

These two were always so OTT. I felt like their excessive drama took away from their skating, but maybe it led to the generation of ice dancers who've been taught to make exaggerated faces and pile on the makeup. They always looked like two drag queens to me, and/or like they were auditioning for a vampire movie.
https://imasportsphile.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/43c8967ae6ad5900d9b86fcdb22805c5.jpg
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U7Wp0vBpZRg

I think Quinn looks like an average college kid, or the cute boy next door without makeup. With makeup (and slicked-back hair), he looks ethereal and otherworldly, or somewhat elf-like:
https://mcnamara-carpenter.ice-dance.com/ Scroll all the way down for the average kid w/o makeup look
Lorraine actually reminds me a bit of Naomi Lang.

 

[Vagabond]

"Average for an Italian guy" could have been a Reputation Level, back in the day. It probably would have been the highest achievable positive level.

 

[Scrufflet]

I must say I hated this thread at the beginning but now I'm finding it interesting in what's being raised. What comes to mind for me is years ago when Jill Trenary skated. There was another US skater, Holly(my brain just forgot her surname, senior moment!). The announcers went on and on about Trenary and her "showgirl" looks and tried to get as many provocative poses as possible. She won. Holly who was considered plain got scarcely any mention at all even though she got on the podium. Uck!

 

[lala]

I'm sure you had good intentions but I truly dislike the idea of this thread. A list of ugly ice dancers? Why would we want to have such a thing?

There aren't any ugly ice dancers anyway!!

I don't think Torwil, Dean or Margaglio were ugly...

 

[edwina]

One retired world medalist ice dancer said in an interview that if you're young and beautiful and step to the ice, it already "lifts the atmosphere" (or something like that) even before you've skated at all. So I guess looks matter.

 

[Anyasnake]

You were not the only one, I remember that in every competition where she participated, many people talked about the Beauty bonus. Since her retirement, that term is no longer used as much.

I remember the commentators (all of them) raving about her too (if it's the one I'm thinking of). It is a bit uncounscious but if you imagine her with another face maybe, I don't know if the judges would have gone with it to be honest. That's a bit horrible to say, but what everyone noticed first (including me) was how beautiful she was.
Presentation matters in figure skating, but let's be honest here : you do notice a "pretty face" too.
Just go into the comment section of YouTube...

 

[Simone411]

Lookism in Ice Dancing. To me, what makes any skater or person beautiful is what's on the inside. What's on the inside is what makes them beautiful on the outside. Look in the mirror first, and if you don't like what you see, change what's on the inside and you'll see a different you on the outside.

I love to write, and I wrote a poem once just about this very subject of 'Lookism'. It's a short free style poem that won't take a lot of time to read. I wrote it on November 4th, 1980.

Makeup

Makeup
Those wonderful cosmetics
Used to hide blemishes
Making the outward appearance
Seem flawless.

Makeup
So many various types.
Like those we use for cover-ups
To hide the lies we've told from inside
Making the outward appearance
Seem innocent?

So I suggest for anyone to look in that mirror really good before judging what someone else looks like.

 

[lala]

First, I personally do not feel it's an insult to call someone ordinary looking or average looking, but I understand some might feel it is. Second, I wanted to point out how rare and difficult it is for an average-looking but excellent skater to succeed in ice dancing.

Ted Chiang once wrote a short story about lookism, "Liking What You See: A Documentary,” that left a deep impression on me. Obviously humans are hard wired to prefer good looks, beautiful faces and bodies, and attribute unrelated qualities to them. But why ice dancing in particular compared with singles and pairs? I think it's a question related to the objectivity of figure skating as a sport, why quads are highly valued, and all the ways that we believe we are unbiased when we really are not.

I understand you... I'm curious about the opinions.

I would say most of the times the biggest stars are charming, attractive person in FS. The lookism has nothing to do with the results. I hope..

 

[missing]

Sergei Sakhnovski was a genuinely not good looking ice dancer. A friend of mine who only watches skating in my presence tried very hard to convince herself he was ugly/sexy and even she failed.

Some of the attractive/unattractive issues come with attention to detail. I still remember an competition that Angela Nikodinov was at and her hair was sloppily tied back. I felt if she was sloppy in her appearance (and I remember blaming her coach for that) she might well be sloppy in her skating, and that particular day she was.

On a somewhat different note, I regularly notice how good looking tennis players are. The women nowadays wear a lot of makeup (Sloane Stephens' eyelashes could take on Tessa Virtue's in a wrestling match), and both men and women clearly pay attention to hair and outfits.

It helps (at least in western society) to be good looking, and it wouldn't surprise me if good looking children are pushed harder and given more opportunities in many different sports than less attractive ones are.

 

[Anyasnake]

@missing It's not just tenis player, and not only women. Look at the Summer Olympics : the guys come up with new haircut and seem so well groomed. Watch track and field, the women have their nails on point, a lot of make-up on, hair on point. And it's the same conclusion : millions of people (for track and field, easily a billion) are going to watch you, you better come up with a great presentation, especially if you make the newspaper front page.

On The Skating Lesson instagram, there was a picture of Liza (this one : https://www.instagram.com/p/BdNcyt-Fe2P/?taken-by=theskatinglesson ) and someone complained about her boots that were not clean. She did receive a lot of backlash (the poster) though I very much agree with her (and it doesn't take a new pair).

 

[NinjaTurtles]

It was pretty common lore on FSU that BelGosto only got as far as they did because of Tanith's looks. See also: "Finnish Beauty Points".