Ladies Grand Prix final standings analysis and other historical tidbits

[nekkidgator]

So, looking at the top 20 finishers in the ladies GP standings, all 20 hail from 1) Russia 2)Japan 3)USA or 4)Korea. It has been an obvious trend over the last decade that Russia was headed towards ladies' dominance, with Japan, USA and Canada trying to keep up. Now with Osmond (CAN) retired and Daleman (CAN) floundering, Kostner (ITA) finished, and Tursynbaeva out injured, there seems to be nobody save the Koreans even showing up to challenge the big 3. Non-Russian Europe, Canada and China have no real contenders currently.

It is looking like the top 10 at Worlds will likely be these 4 countries alone, with a possible medals sweep by Russia by 3 first year seniors. To that end, there are parallels to 1991, the first Worlds after school figures were eliminated. USA ladies had 2 medalists at 1990 Worlds (Trenary and Holly Cook), but neither made the World team the following year, as Yamaguchi, Harding, and Kerrigan won the 3 spots and went on to sweep the medals at Worlds when Midori Ito showed up injured and jumped out of the rink, literally. This year, it is quite possible world medalists Zagitova and medvedeva will not even qualify for Worlds this year (just like Trenary and Cook). Let's just hope with all this Russian competitiveness, we don't get another knee-whacking scandal in 2 years.

 

[Vash01]

Great topic, headed toward great discussion. However, IMO it should be in the Trash Can forum, since we are not discussing a published article/interview/video, etc.

Good summation of history, but I don’t see a knee whacking in the future. History goes to show that different countries dominate at different times. Japan and Korea could give Russian ladies a run for their money sometime in the future.

 

[cs.berlin]

Why should such a (also) in my opinion "burning topic" end up in the trash can - concerning published articles/interviews/videos etc. I have collected some quotes for myself, because some of them occupy me immensely:

jump spectacle: four times around the axis whirl by means of dramatic speed increase;
compete jumping with a sequence of jumps with the impression of gymnastics and/or circus acrobatics;
festival of phenomenal hoppers that teenagers are currently performing that look like children;
merciless pressure to innovate with the result of perverted one-sided selection:
perfect (optimized) bodies according to physical laws of biomechanics, according to which a body with small mass and low moment of inertia can rotate faster, which gives young lightweight girls advantages,
i.e. very young skaters, late puberty as well as artificially restrained puberty due to a targeted malnutrition (if not medicinal);
the selection from the optimization process implies the opposite of a constant development to mature personalities of future runners:
uniform instead of diverse appearance; add to this,
from the point of view of humanistic principles, irresponsible "wear and tear" phenomena of a psychological (e.g. anorexia, depression), physical (e.g. enormous joint stress with long-term consequences) and social nature (abuse of those in need of protection who fight as adults in early adolescence, division of groups up to nations, etc.);
on the sporting level, there is primarily an adaptation to a totally corrupt ISU, whose scoring system, for example, massively rates a "serial fall" higher than a clean and artistically demanding performance;
a certain (sometimes unanalyzed) percentage of critics, athletes and spectators fear (or already see) that (especially) the (ladies) figure skating loses its soul or at least follows its essence (the word "art" in its name) and a brutalization that takes place socio-politically in all areas worldwide;
etc. pp. and last but not least a representative article by Philip Hersh (one of many by now) from September 19, 2019: https://olympics.nbcsports.com/2019/09/19/alysa-liu-figure-skating-quad-revolution/

As always in world history - to put it simply: there is probably no insight. In the end, decadence reigns and civilization's great culture flies around its ears. If the question is allowed: should it be different today, and if not, what common strategy could be used to counteract it?

 

[Aerobicidal]

In the end, decadence reigns and civilization's great culture flies around its ears. If the question is allowed: should it be different today, and if not, what common strategy could be used to counteract it?

This is really the definitive statement about ladies figure skating in 2019.

 

[AngieNikodinovLove (ANL)]

And speaking of russian ladies dominance.... and they mostly all stay uninjured it seems.. Medev had the minor ankle injury Oly year that like kept her away from a competition....Eteri must teach such great technique because I dont seem to see many of her skaters injured.

Elsewhere in Europe you have Lindfors - injured, Peltonen - was injured, Hendrickx - seems forever injured, Schott - was injured, Toth - was forever injured, Lecalvier - injured, Miete - scores like she is injured lol

Does Eteri (or will she) accept non-Russian skaters? I mean Tursy is basically Russian. But you dont see her with any USA, Canadian or European students....

 

[Tinami Amori]

Does Eteri (or will she) accept non-Russian skaters? I mean Tursy is basically Russian. But you dont see her with any USA, Canadian or European students....

Trusy is Russian. She was born in Moscow, has a Russian Citizenship, and now Kazakh Citizenship. Many Russians don't give up their citizenship when they get another one (in most cases, when there are no severe legal issues involved for dual citizenship).

Tutberidze coaches foreign students, besides Tursy and Moris. They are novice and junior level and mostly for Central and Far East Asian countries. here are few quick fotos. more come to Novogorsk training camp in the summer, as well.

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[AngieNikodinovLove (ANL)]

Trusy is Russian. She was born in Moscow, has a Russian Citizenship, and now Kazakh Citizenship. Many Russians don't give up their citizenship when they get another one (in most cases, when there are no severe legal issues involved for dual citizenship).

Tutberidze coaches foreign students, besides Tursy and Moris. They are novice and junior level and mostly for Central and Far East Asian countries. here are few quick fotos. more come to Novogorsk training camp in the summer, as well.

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Thank you.

 

[Vagabond]

What's so bad about decadence?

 

[hanca]

And speaking of russian ladies dominance.... and they mostly all stay uninjured it seems.. Medev had the minor ankle injury Oly year that like kept her away from a competition....Eteri must teach such great technique because I dont seem to see many of her skaters injured.

True...mostly uninjured. The injured ones already retired. Pitkeev, Tsurskaya, Novakhova...
Or found another coach (Voronov, Medvedeva). Actually, we haven’t seen Erokhov this season yet. Is he again injured?

...and injured Tursynbaeva.

 

[Kateri]

And Anna Shcherbakova broke her leg in 2017. But all coaches get injured skaters sometimes, because all skaters get injured sometimes. I'm wary of judging a coach for it unless the amount of injuries seems very pronounced (which it certainly isn't with Tutberidze)

 

[AngieNikodinovLove (ANL)]

...and injured Tursynbaeva.

Tursy already had a history of being injury prone before going to Eteri.

I just think its a good testament to how Eteri trains and teaches technique...

When I look elsewhere its like.. Ting - injured, Bradie - was in a boot, 75% of top Euro ladies injured or were injured. lol

When I look at Eteri's top level of students... all are doing 3 axels and quads and look so strong. No GP withdrawals came from her elite skaters. Amazing. (again, not including Tursy.)

 

[hanca]

Tursy already had a history of being injury prone before going to Eteri.

I just think its a good testament to how Eteri trains and teaches technique...

When I look elsewhere its like.. Ting - injured, Bradie - was in a boot, 75% of top Euro ladies injured or were injured. lol

When I look at Eteri's top level of students... all are doing 3 axels and quads and look so strong. No GP withdrawals came from her elite skaters. Amazing. (again, not including Tursy.)

But you are very selective which skaters and injuries injury you count and which you don’t. Kostornaya was injured quite recently, just before the season started. Scherbakova had broken leg two years ago. Medvedeva was injured during her last season with Tutberidze. Injuries happen no matter who your coach is, but I would say Tutberidze has a fair share of injured skaters as anyone else (possibly even more), so when you mention her as someone whose skaters are mostly healthy...seriously?

 

[rosewood]

Adding Japanese top ladies---Kihira injured in ankle, Kaori injured in ankle, Satoko recovered from stress fracture in hip socket a while back, Wakaba injured in both ankles, Mako injured in both ankles and back, Yuna suffered from flue/streptococcus in a row & multiple injuries, Yuhana is HEALTHY!

 

[AngieNikodinovLove (ANL)]

But you are very selective which skaters and injuries injury you count and which you don’t. Kostornaya was injured quite recently, just before the season started. Scherbakova had broken leg two years ago. Medvedeva was injured during her last season with Tutberidze. Injuries happen no matter who your coach is, but I would say Tutberidze has a fair share of injured skaters as anyone else (possibly even more), so when you mention her as someone whose skaters are mostly healthy...seriously?

Kinda, yeah. medev injury a hundred years ago took her out of what? One competition? It barely was a blip on the radar.

Scherbakova leg 2 years ago.. I dont follow juniors so was not aware.

You mention Kostornaya ... wasnt aware of it as she is a senior now, but i can't imagine this injury too took her outta much. Maybe a trip to the mall?

Im talking senior top level.. Tursy already migrated to Eteri with the teachings of other coaches (and rather banged up).

Im talking Karen Chen.. Bam, gone from the GP! Ting Cui, Bam gone from the GP! Loena Hendrickx, Bam gone from the GP, Laurine Lecavalier, Bam gone from the GP! Ivette Toth, Bam gone from the GP! Viveca Lindfors, Bam gone from the GP, Emmi Peltonen, Bam basically gone til just yesterday.

Even Goddess Osmond had an injury that took her outta a season.

Im simply giving a shout out and props to Eteri who seems to pass down good technique from the get-go.

 

[oleada]

You mention Kostornaya ... wasnt aware of it as she is a senior now, but i can't imagine this injury too took her outta much. Maybe a trip to the mall?

She missed Junior Worlds, so more than a trip to the mall.

 

[hanca]

Kinda, yeah. medev injury a hundred years ago took her out of what? One competition? It barely was a blip on the radar.

Scherbakova leg 2 years ago.. I dont follow juniors so was not aware.

You mention Kostornaya ... wasnt aware of it as she is a senior now, but i can't imagine this injury too took her outta much. Maybe a trip to the mall?

Im talking senior top level.. Tursy already migrated to Eteri with the teachings of other coaches (and rather banged up).

Im talking Karen Chen.. Bam, gone from the GP! Ting Cui, Bam gone from the GP! Loena Hendrickx, Bam gone from the GP, Laurine Lecavalier, Bam gone from the GP! Ivette Toth, Bam gone from the GP! Viveca Lindfors, Bam gone from the GP, Emmi Peltonen, Bam basically gone til just yesterday. T

Even Goddess Osmond had an injury that took herr outta a season.

Im simply giving a shout out and props to Eteri who seems to pass down good technique.

Scherbakova lost her whole first junior season. The season where Trusova, Kosttornaya and Tarakanova dominated, Scherbakova was supposed to be there with them.

Kostornaya lost her trip to junior worlds.

Medvedeva missed ‘only’ Russian nationals and GPF, but she lost indirectly much more. One can argue that if Medvedeva was around, Zagitova wouldn’t raise so fast and the judging at the Europeans and the Olympics would have been different. The judges would not prefer a newcomer if Medvedeva was strong as she had been the first part of that season (before her injury). The result at the Olympics was very close and if Medvedeva did not have injury that season, she would very likely continue her winning streak.

 

[Jeschke]

I wonder what Kanysheva could add to this discussion?

 

[AngieNikodinovLove (ANL)]

She missed Junior Worlds, so more than a trip to the mall.

Ugggg I said Seniors like three times. But, thanks for sharing with me.

On top of everything else, from what I have seen Eteri's students dont seem to have flutzes, mule kicks, many URs or basically anything that can get you membership on #TTW

 

[Vash01]

Why should such a (also) in my opinion "burning topic" end up in the trash can - concerning published articles/interviews/videos etc. I have collected some quotes for myself, because some of them occupy me immensely:

jump spectacle: four times around the axis whirl by means of dramatic speed increase;
compete jumping with a sequence of jumps with the impression of gymnastics and/or circus acrobatics;
festival of phenomenal hoppers that teenagers are currently performing that look like children;
merciless pressure to innovate with the result of perverted one-sided selection:
perfect (optimized) bodies according to physical laws of biomechanics, according to which a body with small mass and low moment of inertia can rotate faster, which gives young lightweight girls advantages,
i.e. very young skaters, late puberty as well as artificially restrained puberty due to a targeted malnutrition (if not medicinal);
the selection from the optimization process implies the opposite of a constant development to mature personalities of future runners:
uniform instead of diverse appearance; add to this,
from the point of view of humanistic principles, irresponsible "wear and tear" phenomena of a psychological (e.g. anorexia, depression), physical (e.g. enormous joint stress with long-term consequences) and social nature (abuse of those in need of protection who fight as adults in early adolescence, division of groups up to nations, etc.);
on the sporting level, there is primarily an adaptation to a totally corrupt ISU, whose scoring system, for example, massively rates a "serial fall" higher than a clean and artistically demanding performance;
a certain (sometimes unanalyzed) percentage of critics, athletes and spectators fear (or already see) that (especially) the (ladies) figure skating loses its soul or at least follows its essence (the word "art" in its name) and a brutalization that takes place socio-politically in all areas worldwide;
etc. pp. and last but not least a representative article by Philip Hersh (one of many by now) from September 19, 2019: https://olympics.nbcsports.com/2019/09/19/alysa-liu-figure-skating-quad-revolution/

As always in world history - to put it simply: there is probably no insight. In the end, decadence reigns and civilization's great culture flies around its ears. If the question is allowed: should it be different today, and if not, what common strategy could be used to counteract it?

Trash can does not mean that the topic or discussion is Trash. It only means you discuss everything about FS in it. There are numerous interesting discussions in it.

The GSD forum is usually for published articles, interviews, etc. Often relatively new posters are misled by the word Debate. They think that they can bring any opinion to ‘debate’ about. Usually after reading or watching the article in GSD we discuss or debate about it. At least that’s what I have seen over the years. It is not an insult to bring one's opinions In the Trashcan because Trash can is anything but Trash.

 

[Sylvia]

Admin @Prancer once wrote:

This forum [GSD] is for news, yes, but also for current skating issues and technical discussion. The Trash Can is for fan threads, rehashing old competitions, polls, and silliness.

...But if there is ever doubt in your mind about the correct location for a thread, the best way to address that is to report the thread to the admins so we can move it--or not.

 

[Sylvia]

Medvedeva missed ‘only’ Russian nationals and GPF, but she lost indirectly much more. One can argue that if Medvedeva was around, Zagitova wouldn’t raise so fast and the judging at the Europeans and the Olympics would have been different. The judges would not prefer a newcomer if Medvedeva was strong as she had been the first part of that season (before her injury). The result at the Olympics was very close and if Medvedeva did not have injury that season, she would very likely continue her winning streak.

This, for me, is the big WHAT IF? from the Olympic season. (And she is still in the process of fixing her flutz.)

 

[Finsta]

Wasn’t Zagitova also injured with a broken bone? And weren’t posters constantly saying she was injured last season? So far the only of Eteri’s top girls not to be injured are just Trusova.

 

[Sylvia]

According to @Tinami Amori in a previous "From Russia with love" thread during last year's Russian nationals:

Zagitova did skate with dimexide chemical skin burn [on her leg accidentally], caused by her grand-mother, Daniil confirmed it now officially to the press. https://www.gazeta.ru/sport/news/2018/12/24/n_12452599.shtml

 

[ЭPiKUilyam]

Alena Kanyesheva was only with Eteri for like a month and she's now out for the season with injury. Wasn't Shabotova with her too and got injured and left Sambo? Of course, injuries happen in sports so you can't just blame a coach or rink. But I am impressed that the 4A have competed well this season. No w/drawals, no known injuries.

 

[Prancer]

Trash can does not mean that the topic or discussion is Trash. It only means you discuss everything about FS in it. There are numerous interesting discussions in it.

The GSD forum is usually for published articles, interviews, etc. Often relatively new posters are misled by the word Debate. They think that they can bring any opinion to ‘debate’ about. Usually after reading or watching the article in GSD we discuss or debate about it. At least that’s what I have seen over the years. It is not an insult to bring one's opinions In the Trashcan because Trash can is anything but Trash.

I believe that Sylvia has reposted my old post before in response to this same sort of comment, but just in case you have her on Ignore and missed it, I will say it again:

This forum [GSD] is for news, yes, but also for current skating issues and technical discussion. The Trash Can is for fan threads, rehashing old competitions, polls, and silliness.

...But if there is ever doubt in your mind about the correct location for a thread, the best way to address that is to report the thread to the admins so we can move it--or not.

 

[skatingguy]

Ugggg I said Seniors like three times. But, thanks for sharing with me.

On top of everything else, from what I have seen Eteri's students dont seem to have flutzes, mule kicks, many URs or basically anything that can get you membership on #TTW

The Sambo 70 skaters seem to have as many technical issues as any other singles school and if you review the protocols, and watch the performances for this season you will see a number of technical issues amongst those skaters, and the Russian Federation has complained to the ISU about the calls. Kostornaia, for example, as a bent leg kick into her flip jump, & Shcherbakova received edge calls on all four lutz jumps at one competition.

 

[Flora]

The Sambo 70 skaters seem to have as many technical issues as any other singles school and if you review the protocols, and watch the performances for this season you will see a number of technical issues amongst those skaters, and the Russian Federation has complained to the ISU about the calls. Kostornaia, for example, as a bent leg kick into her flip jump, & Shcherbakova received edge calls on all four lutz jumps at one competition.

I don't see it mentioned much...or ever tbh but I really dislike Kostornaia's technique on the flip. It's so ugly. Also having seen Shcherbakova's blade assisted lutzes in slow-mo, I think that jump is questionable in addition to the edge calls. Medvedeva's lutz is very similar with the blade assist.

 

[ЭPiKUilyam]

I believe that Sylvia has reposted my old post before in response to this same sort of comment, but just in case you have her on Ignore and missed it, I will say it again:

This forum [GSD] is for news, yes, but also for current skating issues and technical discussion. The Trash Can is for fan threads, rehashing old competitions, polls, and silliness.

...But if there is ever doubt in your mind about the correct location for a thread, the best way to address that is to report the thread to the admins so we can move it--or not.

So, are you saying this does belong in GSD (which I think it does) and not in the Trash Can? It's relevant, a current and future controversy. It could slightly have an impact on the women's OLY event at the very least if no Russians can compete, right? Not really trashcan material, IMO.

 

[hanca]

Ugggg I said Seniors like three times. But, thanks for sharing with me.

Well, if we are looking at seniors only, and not even count with the current seniors their injuries from a year or two ago because at that time they were juniors, then the sample is very limited. Tutberidze does not have that many seniors. Three of those she has has been seniors only for this season (which is two months -October and November). Tursynbaeva you dismissed that she had been injured before coming to Tutberidze, Medvedeva- the injury she had you dismissed because it didn’t seem to you serious enough....so who are the seniors you are actually basing your opinion on? Who are those lucky ones you decided to count? Should we count the past seniors, such as Tsurskaya, Pitkeev and Voronov, who actually were injured? Or who are the healthy ones?

 

[soogar]

Scherbakova lost her whole first junior season. The season where Trusova, Kosttornaya and Tarakanova dominated, Scherbakova was supposed to be there with them.

Kostornaya lost her trip to junior worlds.

Medvedeva missed ‘only’ Russian nationals and GPF, but she lost indirectly much more. One can argue that if Medvedeva was around, Zagitova wouldn’t raise so fast and the judging at the Europeans and the Olympics would have been different. The judges would not prefer a newcomer if Medvedeva was strong as she had been the first part of that season (before her injury). The result at the Olympics was very close and if Medvedeva did not have injury that season, she would very likely continue her winning streak.

No one mentions that Zagitova broke her arm two years before the Olympics.