Keeping Track of Criminal Cases & SafeSport Suspensions in Skating

[kwanfan1818]

I've been friends for years with a former pairs skater who more than once mentioned how great John Coughlin was to younger pairs skaters, always going out of his way to talk to them and encourage them. Not exactly the story Ashley Wagner told the world.

Why would it be? Was your friend in a bedroom with him and Ashley Wagner?

It's not up to the jury to make up their own defenses for the Defendant if he failed to do so.

Have you ever been on a jury? I have, and coming up with alternative scenarios to determine reasonsable doubt or to bring up (projected) motivation happens all the time, until consensus is that the jury wants it wrapped up to not have to come back, and then those arguments might not matter. I've been on juries where people have turn themselves into knots to rationalize or excuse behavior, and another where someone argued that the person bringing a civil suit was in it for the money and shouldn't get any, despite strong evidence of damage.

The only way to save it is the screenshot it, and Snapchat and the other participants are notified when this happens.

I know nothing about Snapchat, so my question is, is there something about the application that would stop some from taking a photo of the screen with a different camera?

 

[VGThuy]

Why would it be? Was your friend in a bedroom with him and Ashley Wagner?


Have you ever been on a jury? I have, and coming up with alternative scenarios to determine reasonsable doubt or to bring up (projected) motivation happens all the time, until consensus is that the jury wants it wrapped up to not have to come back, and then those arguments might not matter. I've been on juries where people have turn themselves into knots to rationalize or excuse behavior, and another where someone argued that the person bringing a civil suit was in it for the money and shouldn't get any, despite strong evidence of damage.



I know nothing about Snapchat, so my question is, is there something about the application that would stop some from taking a photo of the screen with a different camera?

I’ve been on two juries and a grand jury, conducted voir dire a few times, and helped write closing arguments to a jury before deliberation a few times I actually went to trial since most case settle before it gets there. I know how people actually are. I’m saying the jury is supposed to only consider the evidence and though they can come up with all sorts of holes in the plaintiff’s argument (where in civil cases only 51 percent needs to be proven to weigh in the plaintiff’s favor) or prosecutor’s case (where you need beyond a reasonable doubt), a juror coming up with a defense out of nowhere and one that wasn’t presented by the defense itself isn’t as strong or seen as weighty as it would have been if the defense brought it up and provided evidence In support, in my experience in being in a jury and seeing how trials go. Otherwise, it looks like as you say “turning themselves into knots”, which we all know is never convincing. Anyway, I only mentioned this since we’re now bringing court room standards into judging whether or not Miner is a misogynistic disgusting entitled racist piece of shit.

 

[Yazmeen]

Why would it be? Was your friend in a bedroom with him and Ashley Wagner?

My point being that even someone who a lot of people consider the nicest person in public can have a side to them in private that others don't see. And I also think you knew exactly what I was saying here.

 

[kwanfan1818]

I’ve been on two juries and a grand jury. I know how people actually are. I’m saying the jury is supposed to only consider the evidence and defense presented to them since we’re now bringing court room standards into judging whether or not Miner is a misogynistic disgusting entitled racist piece of shit.

And I would argue that what is supposed to be and and what actually happens can be alarmingly close to arguments posted on a message board, which is filled with people who will be on juries.

I.also don't think that asking, "Did the now-removed screenshots really come from his account" when just about any screenshots can be fabricated is asking for criminal or even civil standards.

Unless there's a leak which says, yes, the screenshots were part of the SafeSport decision, in which case, authentication or at lesst a statement by the recipient would be on the record, or he appeals the SafeSport decision in a way that discloses that he disputes the screenshots specifically, it's up to everyone here -- those who saw them and those who believe the descriptions of who saw them -- to decide if they were real and if he is a "misogynistic disgusting entitled racist piece of shit" because of them.

That he was suspended for such a short time based on the reason given, even if screenshots weren't part of it, is, IMO appalling. That MJM hasn't condemned him publicly based on SafeSport alone, is, IMO, appalling. That whoever owns the rink hasn't announced that they are banning him from return is, IMO, appalling.

If the screenshots can be authenticated, then, IMO, any civil action that applies should be taken against him.

In the meantime, until otherwise disproven, I can choose to believe he sent them and that they could be in character for someone who actually received the rare SafeSport suspension, until I'm on a jury, when I'm ethically responsible for demanding evidence that they were his.

ETA to avoid double-posting:

My point being that even someone who a lot of people consider the nicest person in public can have a side to them in private that others don't see. And I also think you knew exactly what I was saying here.

No, I didn't know exactly what you were saying here, because Friends of Coughlin made such a public defense of him at the time by saying the same things your friend did, and no one here was saying that Miner was such a great guy that there was no way he could have done what he was suspended for or sent those messages or that they were a big joke (like Cipres'/dick pics). The question was whether the messages were authentic. So, no, I didn't see the analogy/your point in posting this.

 

[VGThuy]

Actually thinking about it some more the analogy of court room settings (which another poster brought up and not me, but I followed along those lines) don’t even fit here because no matter what “crazy” theory happens in the jury deliberation room, the fact is it can be backed up by the simple fact that it made it to trial, and thus the defendant has issued a defense. Even if it’s just “I didn’t do it” or “I wasn’t on 85th and 7th at the time of the incident”, that’s a defense presented. A pleading or testimony used as evidence. Usually jurors don’t act like they’re in 12 angry men or on a sitcom where they start conducting their own investigation delve so deeply they seriously become defense counsel. They just bring up a bunch of things thinking maybe one will stick but usually the ones that stick will be the one that is backed up by what was presented in court as evidence.

Here, Miner presented no defense. “He didn’t say he didn’t do it” or “I didn’t send those texts.” However, people pretty much offered to make a pleading for him and create a defense despite him not saying anything one way or the other. That’s something you never see in court. No response would have been treated as a default judgment against them in civil matters.

 

[kwanfan1818]

I'm not sure why he'd offer a defense: after six months, he'll be back. The directors of his program have said nothing. The rink has said nothing. The screenshots have been removed. The quieter he stays, the better for him.

If parents have concerns, he can say whatever he wants to them privately.

Parents who are not new to the skating world have put their kids in the hands of rapists and abusers and groomers repeatedly, even when Open Secrets are rife. So shutting up is probably his best course. What most of us think of him is irrelevant.

 

[Theatregirl1122]

My point being that even someone who a lot of people consider the nicest person in public can have a side to them in private that others don't see. And I also think you knew exactly what I was saying here.

I have to agree with kwanfan, the tone of your post could have been read a very different way from what you seem to have intended. Like what your friend was saying called Ashley’s story into question. That’s how I first interpreted it but decided you hadn’t meant that tone so I didn’t comment.

 

[Yazmeen]

I have to agree with kwanfan, the tone of your post could have been read a very different way from what you seem to have intended. Like what your friend was saying called Ashley’s story into question. That’s how I first interpreted it but decided you hadn’t meant that tone so I didn’t comment.

Thanks - I really didn't think it sounded like that but I see your point. My apologies also to @kwanfan1818

 

[BittyBug]

FWIW @Yazmeen I read your post exactly as you meant it, but his is a good example of how static words on a page can be read many different ways.

 

[overedge]

Apologies if this has already been discussed around the other SafeSport cases, but would the recipient of those texts have any recourse through the court system? Like suing Miner for harassment, or requesting he be charged with a hate crime, or suing MJM for allowing their employee to harass her?

I know that in the real world, if any of these things could happen, unfortunately they would have very little chance of success. I'm asking if theoretically the recipient would be able to do them.

 

[kwanfan1818]

If Miner were their employee, that would be an unusual arrangement for coaches, who tend to be independent contractors.

 

[Judy]

I wish this were true all the time. But unfortunately, in far too many workplaces, the harasser gets transferred somewhere else in the organization, or they get a warning that they ignore, or the allegation is downplayed or ignored because "s/he says they never did that" or some other procedural reason. And in some places, if the harasser does get fired, if they apply for other jobs, the employer that fired them might not tell another organization why the harasser no longer works for them. https://hbr.org/2018/03/if-you-fire...at-do-you-say-if-youre-called-for-a-reference

And if the harasser happens to be the boss or the owner, they can get away with harassment for as long as no one is willing to blow the whistle on them. See e.g. Harvey Weinstein. (Note: I am not saying that what Miner did is the same as what Weinstein did - only using Weinstein as an example of how a harasser in a powerful position can continue their behaviour for years without any consequences.)

Very true. Sexual harrassment usually happens between two people and the transfers are a common bandaid. Unless there is more than one person.

An employer actually can’t give the reason for departure. All they can legally give is dates of employment. A lot of big companies will say they won’t give references which leaves you finding appropriate people in the organization who will. There are likely lots of organizations without HR departments that are unaware of it though.

 

[overedge]

If Miner were their employee, that would be an unusual arrangement for coaches, who tend to be independent contractors.

True, although some clubs in the US and Canada employ coaches for programs like Learn-to-Skate and also let them work with their own students as independent contractors.

There might also be a question around whether a coach in a highly structured program like MJM is really an independent contractor, if there's a specific type or structure of training they're required to provide as part of the program.

 

[kwanfan1818]

There have also been cases where there's been a class-action-like argument that entire groups of contractors are actually employees.

A Washington State court found that what Microsoft had been calling contractors were actually employees and were entitled to the financial gains of employees, who had stock options. (They also made a lot more in wages, and, at least the ones I knew, we paid for overtime, at least at their regular rate.) That's why the big companies now have 12/3 or 18/6 on/off month contracts, in able to claim that people aren't employees and entitled to employee benefits from them.

Or they create contracts like with consulting firms, on a project basis, where an employee of a consulting firm can remain on a project indefinitely. (The way to tell if it is truly a consulting firm, like Andersen Consulting is, or at least was, is if the moment the project is done, the "employee" is dropped and claims unemployment. A true consulting firm would keep that employee on the "bench" and then find another project for them or send them for training, because while they fry their employees, they also invest in them.

 

[Tavi]

Apologies if this has already been discussed around the other SafeSport cases, but would the recipient of those texts have any recourse through the court system? Like suing Miner for harassment, or requesting he be charged with a hate crime, or suing MJM for allowing their employee to harass her?

I know that in the real world, if any of these things could happen, unfortunately they would have very little chance of success. I'm asking if theoretically the recipient would be able to do them.

The SafeSport code explicitly states that “Participating in the Center’s process does not extend or restrict a person’s right to file charges or claims regarding the underlying allegations with any other agency, law enforcement, or court.” So if the statute of limitations hasn’t expired, a victim who has already made a complaint with SafeSport can also consult a lawyer regarding whether a criminal or civil complaint is appropriate. Whether a crime or hate crime can be charged depends on whether the behavior constitutes a crime under the relevant criminal code, and whether hate crimes are defined separately or considered an aggravating factor during sentencing.

 

[overedge]

Thanks @Tavi that was exactly what I was wondering - if going through SafeSport meant that a complainant was excluded from pursuing the case through other channels. Good to know that it doesn't.

 

[overedge]

There have also been cases where there's been a class-action-like argument that entire groups of contractors are actually employees.

In addition to the ones you mentioned, there's also several cases underway in the US and Canada arguing that drivers for Uber, Deliveroo, SkipTheDishes, etc. should be classified as employees. Because the drivers get work from those companies through those companies' apps and have to do the work the way the company tells them to, even though the companies call the drivers "independent contractors".

 

[Vagabond]

Has there been even a peep out of Mark Mitchell or Peter Johansson?

The MJM Coaching Team webpage appears not to have been updated since before Miner earned his silver medal at U.S. Nationals in 2018. Not a good look.

 

[puglover]

Has there been even a peep out of Mark Mitchell or Peter Johansson?

The MJM Coaching Team webpage appears not to have been updated since before Miner earned his silver medal at U.S. Nationals in 2018. Not a good look.

Are they not the ones Dave Lease mentioned had opened up a picnic catering business?

 

[Aceon6]

Has there been even a peep out of Mark Mitchell or Peter Johansson?

Not that I’ve seen. TBH, Mark’s media skills need a LOT of work. If I was his lawyer, I’d advise him to “no comment” until he has to. I don’t have an impression of whether Peter might be up to the task.

 

[Vagabond]

If I was his lawyer, I’d advise him to “no comment” until he has to.

If not now, then when? Miner has already been found to have violated the applicable rules and has been suspended. All he has to do is hire someone with P.R. skills and issue a statement saying that Miner's actions were wrong.

 

[Alilou]

Okay so that woman in Central Park (?) who called the cops saying a black man was assaulting her (or s'thing like that) when he wasn't anywhere near her and he filmed it all. She was immediately fired from her job and the company issued a statement saying there was no room for racism in their company. How is this different?

 

[Dlynnturtle]

do you mind sending me a PM too? i couldn't open the link either.

Will you please PM the screenshots?

 

[caseyedwards]

Okay so that woman in Central Park (?) who called the cops saying a black man was assaulting her (or s'thing like that) when he wasn't anywhere near her and he filmed it all. She was immediately fired from her job and the company issued a statement saying there was no room for racism in their company. How is this different?

It’s different in many ways! A white woman was calling the cops on a black man. You know why that’s different than using some stereotypes in a chat.

 

[emason]

Okay so that woman in Central Park (?) who called the cops saying a black man was assaulting her (or s'thing like that) when he wasn't anywhere near her and he filmed it all. She was immediately fired from her job and the company issued a statement saying there was no room for racism in their company. How is this different?

Well, she is now suing her former employer for big $$$ claiming wrongful termination or some such; I forget the exact wording of her claim. Otherwise, no, probably not different, at least in my opinion.

 

[once_upon]

Well, she is now suing her former employer for big $$$ claiming wrongful termination or some such; I forget the exact wording of her claim. Otherwise, no, probably not different, at least in my opinion.

I believe many states are "at will" employment. Meaning they really don't need a reason to let someone go, I'd be surprised if it worked

And yes, Minor should be "let go".

 

[VGThuy]

I think Central Park Karen may have been one the lucky professionals to have an employment contract.

 

[Prancer]

Well, she is now suing her former employer for big $$$ claiming wrongful termination or some such; I forget the exact wording of her claim. Otherwise, no, probably not different, at least in my opinion.

She claims she is a victim of racial discimination.

 

[overedge]

If not now, then when? Miner has already been found to have violated the applicable rules and has been suspended. All he has to do is hire someone with P.R. skills and issue a statement saying that Miner's actions were wrong.

Plus the usual corporate bafflegab about how the club promotes inclusivity and doesn't tolerate discrimination or abuse.

 

[ЭPiKUilyam]

The "Method" guys will probably just not say anything. What can you really say? Miner's posts were indefensible. They sounded like words from an adolescent. My whole life I've been called a "fkcking faggot" and had to listen to descriptions of sexual acts that follow by these losers. Miner sounds like he's of the same ilk. He sounds incredibly immature, and has a juvenile mind. I mean, coaching was to be his career, and he couldn't keep his childish mouth closed on his anti-Asian prejudices? Does he not know his "audience" in skating? It would be like a medical professional attacking Asians or Indians based on their race. Obviously this career is not for him if he can't be civil to others. He's 30 damn years old. Skating might be a bubble, but it is a bubble that has numerous Asians in it. And friends/allies of Asians. It will be interesting to see who he still coaches in six months. I would say he successfully burned that bridge. Who would even take from someone like him? Bye, Ross, you have been cancelled due to your own disgusting self and behavior.