I agree. Thank you.
Keeping Track of Criminal Cases & SafeSport Suspensions in Skating
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Yazmeen
All we are saying, is give peace a chance
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I've been friends for years with a former pairs skater who more than once mentioned how great John Coughlin was to younger pairs skaters, always going out of his way to talk to them and encourage them. Not exactly the story Ashley Wagner told the world.
ostile17
Well-Known Member
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Scary! He was always a huge fan of Takahashi and even often made comments in Japanese to Dai's IG posts. 
MacMadame
Doing all the things
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SafeSport isn't court though. They have a different standard of evidence. Which is appropriate because they don't put people in prison.
thvu
Usova's Apprentice
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Exactly. I don’t know why it’s expected that we as private citizens forming our own opinions should have the same thresholds as a court of law for drawing conclusions.
VGThuy
Well-Known Member
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And the standards are never consistently applied in private settings, unlike in the court of law where that jurisdiction's rules of evidence are applied. Also, in a court-of-law, it's up to the Defendant to present challenges to submitted evidence like say for authenticity. It's not up to the jury to make up their own defenses for the Defendant if he failed to do so.
Yuri
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Excellent point. The SnapChat dialogue snippet included vulgar racial slurs against a specific nationality of Asian, which could make it relatively easy to identify the victim if you were to also confirm the victim was a skater at Miner's rink, their age and gender, and a student of his. Especially if there aren't many Asians training in the greater Boston area, not the most diverse area of the country.
Of course that's possible, and I wouldn't be surprised if the SnapChat conversation was shared with USA Today by a third party. As I stated above, perhaps they didn't want to risk providing information that could risk the victim's anonymity. I have no reason to doubt the conversation snippet was genuine, but a verification by a media investigation would have removed any remaining doubt.
overedge
Mayor of Carrot City
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As I understand it, it can be difficult to verify a social media post from a screenshot of the post. The post itself has metadata that can be used to get information about e.g. the source of the post and the time and date when it was sent. But I don't think a screenshot captures that information - there's metadata about the screenshot itself, but not necessarily about the image that's shown in the screenshot. So if all that USA Today or any other organization has is a screenshot, they can verify that a screenshot was taken of an image, but they can't verify the image itself.
More technologically inclined people, feel free to correct me if this isn't accurate.
More technologically inclined people, feel free to correct me if this isn't accurate.
It's also possible that both examples were genuine reflections of who Coughlin was as a person. It's possible that he genuinely loved working with young skaters and meant zero harm to them (at least not consciously). But that he also assaulted Ashley and others and felt entitled to do so.
People are complex and that's why its harder to believe someone so good can do something so terrible. And then of course there are people who have monstrous intentions all the time and hide it well.
We had someone at our rink who I believe genuinely had some good intentions sometimes and of course many likeable qualities. But then that person sexually assaulted our young skater and seemed honestly perplexed when we had an issue with it. Others at the rink were also perplexed about what our "problem" was. Those people are dead to us now.
BittyBug
Disgusted
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Boston has a significant Asian community and even has its own Chinatown.
Diversity On The Rise In Greater Boston, New Research Shows
A new study out of the Boston Foundation confirms Boston's changing demographics.
www.wgbh.org
Demographics of Asian Americans - Wikipedia
overedge
Mayor of Carrot City
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Boston has a significant Asian community and even has its own Chinatown.
Diversity On The Rise In Greater Boston, New Research Shows
A new study out of the Boston Foundation confirms Boston's changing demographics.
Demographics of Asian Americans - Wikipedia
en.wikipedia.org
And from the results posted on the MJM website, the program seems to have many Asian-American students.
Well, I was responding to someone who asked if social media was used as evidence in court. Incidentally, the same rules of evidence are used in civil and criminal cases, and sexual harassment (but not sexual abuse) complaints are usually civil cases. I can’t say for sure what SafeSport requires.
Plus the figure skating world is TINY. People can figure out who is who pretty easily.
Sylvia
TBD
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I've started a separate news thread:
Link to USFS' Grievances page: https://www.usfigureskating.org/grievances
Ross Miner
On June 1, 2021, the U.S. Center for SafeSport issued the following sanction regarding Ross Miner.
Sanction: Six (6) month Suspension. Beginning on June 1, 2021, Ross Miner is prohibited for six (6) months from participating, in any capacity, in any event, program, activity, or competition authorized by, organized by, or under the auspices of the United States Olympic & Paralympic Committee (USOPC), the National Governing Bodies recognized by the USOPC, a Local Affiliated Organization as defined by the Code, any High Performance Management Organization (HPMO), or at a facility under the jurisdiction of the same.
Pursuant to U.S. Figure Skating Bylaw Article XXV, Section 2, U.S. Figure Skating hereby adopts the Sanction imposed by the Center suspending Ross Miner for six (6) months effective June 1, 2021.
Professional Skaters Association's website: https://skatepsa.com/compliance
Miner was also listed on June 1 - document link is titled "Notice of Banned and Suspended Persons" (upper right hand side of the page).
U.S. Center for SafeSport suspends figure skating coach Ross Miner for sexual harassment
Since there are 2 articles in the mainstream media, here is a separate news thread. USA Today article by Christine Brennan (June 1, 2021): https://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/olympics/2021/06/01/figure-skating-coach-ross-miner-suspended-sexual-harassment/7501092002/ Ross Miner, a U.S. figure...
www.fsuniverse.net
Link to USFS' Grievances page: https://www.usfigureskating.org/grievances
Ross Miner
On June 1, 2021, the U.S. Center for SafeSport issued the following sanction regarding Ross Miner.
Sanction: Six (6) month Suspension. Beginning on June 1, 2021, Ross Miner is prohibited for six (6) months from participating, in any capacity, in any event, program, activity, or competition authorized by, organized by, or under the auspices of the United States Olympic & Paralympic Committee (USOPC), the National Governing Bodies recognized by the USOPC, a Local Affiliated Organization as defined by the Code, any High Performance Management Organization (HPMO), or at a facility under the jurisdiction of the same.
Pursuant to U.S. Figure Skating Bylaw Article XXV, Section 2, U.S. Figure Skating hereby adopts the Sanction imposed by the Center suspending Ross Miner for six (6) months effective June 1, 2021.
Professional Skaters Association's website: https://skatepsa.com/compliance
Miner was also listed on June 1 - document link is titled "Notice of Banned and Suspended Persons" (upper right hand side of the page).
overedge
Mayor of Carrot City
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Sadly, you are probably right about this. He's still listed on the coaches' roster on the MJM website, although the link to contact him goes to his Instagram account, which is now deleted. IMO leaving his listing there when he's been suspended isn't a good look for the club.
once_upon
Better off than 2020
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And can lead one to believe he will be back as a respected member of the team.
Yeah I don’t do
I think most cities do? Maybe not everywhere? I know we have China townBoston has a significant Asian community and even has its own Chinatown.
Diversity On The Rise In Greater Boston, New Research Shows
A new study out of the Boston Foundation confirms Boston's changing demographics.
Demographics of Asian Americans - Wikipedia
With Safe Sport they don’t have to bring it to a court of law? Obviously sexual assault etc would be handed to the authorities. But they have the ability to protect kids for example suspension etc?
thvu
Usova's Apprentice
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This is a Snapchat conversation, not a post. There is no metadata to examine. It is only accessible to those in the conversion and Snapchat itself. The messages also expire. The only way to save it is the screenshot it, and Snapchat and the other participants are notified when this happens.
Sylvia
TBD
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From the FAQ: https://uscenterforsafesport.org/about/faqs/
Should I first report child abuse or neglect to Law Enforcement, or to the Center?
Report first to your local law enforcement—if you are a mandatory reporter, this is required by law—then to the Center. You must make separate reports to both entities, though be aware that the Center often collaborates directly with law enforcement on report investigations.
Why doesn’t the Center publicly release information about case resolutions?
Public disclosure of investigation-related information is inconsistent with best practices and can jeopardize the Center’s ability to protect affected individuals. Final decisions are always shared with the Claimant(s), Respondent, and relevant NGB.
How can a Respondent challenge a Center decision?
A Respondent may challenge a Center finding of a SafeSport Code violation or related sanction by requesting a hearing administered by independent neutral arbitrators. A video outlining Center arbitrations and process parameters can be viewed at this page. Further process detail is articulated in section XIV of the SafeSport Code.
Who is responsible for enforcing Center actions?
The relevant NGB, and the USOPC, must ensure enforcement of any temporary measure or sanction issued by the Center.
overedge
Mayor of Carrot City
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I understand that. I meant "post" in the sense of "social media message".
jlai
Question everything
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In a workplace, sexual harassment is cause for disciplinary action, sometimes even termination of employment.
I'm fine with him losing his job over this.
That said, for first time offenses, there are lighter sentences in the criminal justice system if the guilty party shows remorse and takes part of various community work and education and stuff. I'm fine with a second chance for someone who is willing to improve their behavior. I don't know whether this is the case, however.
overedge
Mayor of Carrot City
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I wish this were true all the time. But unfortunately, in far too many workplaces, the harasser gets transferred somewhere else in the organization, or they get a warning that they ignore, or the allegation is downplayed or ignored because "s/he says they never did that" or some other procedural reason. And in some places, if the harasser does get fired, if they apply for other jobs, the employer that fired them might not tell another organization why the harasser no longer works for them. https://hbr.org/2018/03/if-you-fire...at-do-you-say-if-youre-called-for-a-reference
And if the harasser happens to be the boss or the owner, they can get away with harassment for as long as no one is willing to blow the whistle on them. See e.g. Harvey Weinstein. (Note: I am not saying that what Miner did is the same as what Weinstein did - only using Weinstein as an example of how a harasser in a powerful position can continue their behaviour for years without any consequences.)
maatTheViking
Roxaaannnneeee!!!
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I think people in general wishes they could know, they would be able to figure it out, that a person would somehow reveal themselves. You want to think that you would be able to sort those people out, so you'd never be a victim or your loved ones would never be a victim. But as you said, it doesn't work like that. I loved Coughlin's commentating with Tanith White on pairs when he did it for IceNetwork one year. I thought he was insightful and seemed to care a lot. From how he appeared I'd not have hesitated have my kid or teen work with him.
In some ways the idea that we can 'screen' by people's demeanor is the same as questioning why a victim of sexual assault was walking home alone in the dark - we want to reassure ourselves it wouldn't happen to us. But you can't, and the only one to blame is the assaulter/harasser.
.
sadya
Well-Known Member
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Schools and companies often take the easy way out for themselves instead of solving the problem. Often the victim is the one who will be blamed and end up having to leave or being fired, or nothing changes at all.
And many horrible people know that what they are doing is wrong, which is why they hide it and show society only the part which is nice. I've seen first hand how horrible abusive people were nice and charming, even kind towards the person they were abusing, in front of other people. This makes it even harder for the victim to be believed.
It is scary though, when you aren't there, of course you can't know everything that happened. What if someone innocent is being accused? That happens too of course. I don't think that that is the reason that many schools and companies often side with perpetrators though, they just care about making money. Only under special circumstances they will actually help the victim (to look better in the press, too much evidence against a perpetrator which even they can't ignore anymore without others noticing how mcuh they help perpetrators, etc.).
And many horrible people know that what they are doing is wrong, which is why they hide it and show society only the part which is nice. I've seen first hand how horrible abusive people were nice and charming, even kind towards the person they were abusing, in front of other people. This makes it even harder for the victim to be believed.
It is scary though, when you aren't there, of course you can't know everything that happened. What if someone innocent is being accused? That happens too of course. I don't think that that is the reason that many schools and companies often side with perpetrators though, they just care about making money. Only under special circumstances they will actually help the victim (to look better in the press, too much evidence against a perpetrator which even they can't ignore anymore without others noticing how mcuh they help perpetrators, etc.).
I hear what you are saying. I was referring more to whether parents and people in the skating community would be informed enough and/or would care enough to refuse to allow their child to be coached by him given this suspension.
sadya
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It really depends on the parents. There are parens who abuse their children themselves, they wouldn't care what a coach would do to their children.
You also have parents who choose to ignore the possible abuse of a coach, to them success and/or money is more important. In some cultures parents actually willingly destroy the lives of their children, by forcing them in marriage, feeling that this is correct given the expectations of society and family.
Parents also destroy lives by demanding that their children take jobs and follow studies which they believe will give them status or money or both, these parents willingly ignore the wishes of their children who want to do something entirely different with their lives.
So it doesn't surprise me that there are parents who do send their children to coaches who are known abusers. Is it wrong? Of course. Will it change? Not soon I'm afraid.
You also have parents who choose to ignore the possible abuse of a coach, to them success and/or money is more important. In some cultures parents actually willingly destroy the lives of their children, by forcing them in marriage, feeling that this is correct given the expectations of society and family.
Parents also destroy lives by demanding that their children take jobs and follow studies which they believe will give them status or money or both, these parents willingly ignore the wishes of their children who want to do something entirely different with their lives.
So it doesn't surprise me that there are parents who do send their children to coaches who are known abusers. Is it wrong? Of course. Will it change? Not soon I'm afraid.
overedge
Mayor of Carrot City
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As long as a coach produces "winners", there are going to be parents who let their kids take lessons with that coach, no matter how awful the coach is as a person or how abusive they are as a coach. Unfortunately.
There may also be parents who realize that the coach's behaviour is a problem. But those parents may feel there are no other coaches to go to - not everyone lives in a region with a lot of qualified coaches, or can afford to move to another rink or city - or that they've invested so much $$$ in their kid's skating that they have to keep going.
There may also be parents who realize that the coach's behaviour is a problem. But those parents may feel there are no other coaches to go to - not everyone lives in a region with a lot of qualified coaches, or can afford to move to another rink or city - or that they've invested so much $$$ in their kid's skating that they have to keep going.
antmanb
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I pretty sure that if you swipe a message to the right in snapchat it saves the message in your feed (and notifies the other person that you have done so) and it stays there until you manually delete it.
You'd want to screen shot the conversation though because if someone deletes their snapchat or blocks you all of the conversation would be lost.
skategal
Bunny mama
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Same if the harasser is married to the boss.
It doesn’t matter how many complaints get made.
They stay with little to no consequences.
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