Keeping Track of Criminal Cases & SafeSport Suspensions in Skating

[Theatregirl1122]

Thank your district/state/province for not enforcing this (yet). The no zero rule came into effect in Nova Scotia about 10 years ago. The junior high “nothing below 50” was brought in more recently. The “kids can’t fail” (up until grade 9 has been in place for at least 20 years. Probably longer.

I'm so glad you know so much about my district and the future! I wish they'd tell me these things instead of strangers on the internet!

 

[pat c]

I'm so glad you know so much about my district and the future! I wish they'd tell me these things instead of strangers on the internet!

I don't think that's what he said. We all know there is differences between the US and Canada's educational systems.

Anyway, what a difficult situation this is for all directly involved. I was going to go to SC in Calgary, in a way I'm glad I decided not to.

 

[skategal]

Thank your district/state/province for not enforcing this (yet). The no zero rule came into effect in Nova Scotia about 10 years ago. The junior high “nothing below 50” was brought in more recently. The “kids can’t fail” (up until grade 9 has been in place for at least 20 years. Probably longer.

Well that’s good to know.

I need to email a few junior high teachers in the public school system in NS now and ask them why they gave DS 1+ out of 4 on some tests and assignments.

I did know that no one fails a grade anymore.

 

[Sparks]

Pardon me. What does this have to do with the rape charges against Nik?

 

[once_upon]

I'm trying to understand how the filing can be considered to come from nowhere. Brennen is a journalist, one you may or may not like, but is certainly very aware of legal ramifications of reporting something that is not under investigation. Or give the person an opportunity to comment.

I know many of us may not like her reporting, but I don't equate her reporting as something from the National Enquirer or other gossip rag. I don't listen to TSL based upon the reports of FSU posters that his reports are gossipy - but Brennen? Yes I will read her and give her creed.

I do not know about this case. As far as I know I've limited to my comments to the BS of using a drunk/not responsible for behavior due to impaired status defense. I did comment on the graphic description of this rape, including the laying there to get it over with. I also stated my very strong belief that rape is rarely a one off action. I've also questioned the sincerity of an acknowledgment and "learn a lesson".

I also believe that false accusations rarely include graphic details of a rape.

Timing of the Brennan story? That's for you all to decide. And as indicated with the school standards discussion, laws vary from country to country, but employees at least in the US can and have been fired despite the lack of a conviction. But do we have any indication that SC has prohibited him from competing?

I'm going back to the BS of using alcohol as the reason rape happens. Or the defense of she/he was a willing participant by being somewhere. Just stop it.

 

[Kaz7714]

What we're not discussing is that rape is about power, the sex is the result. The difference is we're concentrating on the sex aspect. Someone who thinks it is ok to bend someone else to their will by force, alcohol, money whatever ....is going to use power in whatever way they think will benefit them. So, one of the questions to ask and get answered in this situation is - is might right? The person might not ever rape again, but they will use whatever resources to get their way. So is that ok? Do we want that person to interact with vulnerable children and pass that philosophy on? Food for thought.

Thank you ! I don't want to really reply here as I am also a survivor and work with victims. Hence I might not be able to stay calm in a discussion. This is such a good post. I wholeheartedly agree.

 

[once_upon]

What we're not discussing is that rape is about power, the sex is the result. The difference is we're concentrating on the sex aspect. Someone who thinks it is ok to bend someone else to their will by force, alcohol, money whatever ....is going to use power in whatever way they think will benefit them.

And THIS is why rape isn't one act caused by one drunken event.

Rape is power. Rape is rage. Rape is domination. Rape is punishment.

I do not want someone near anyone especially the vulnerable populations.

 

[canbelto]

And THIS is why rape isn't one act caused by one drunken event.

Rape is power. Rape is rage. Rape is domination. Rape is punishment.

I do not want someone near anyone especially the vulnerable populations.

Also: rape is not a drunken accident.

You get drunk, you get into a fight in a bar ... yes. Get drunk, get behind the wheel ... horrible judgment, but can be attributed to an accident.

You don't get drunk and "accidentally" rape someone.

 

[fsfann]

I'm so glad you know so much about my district and the future! I wish they'd tell me these things instead of strangers on the internet!

Where did I say that? I told you that you are lucky that your system hasn't gone the way ours has.. Please re-read my post.

 

[fsfann]

Well that’s good to know.

I need to email a few junior high teachers in the public school system in NS now and ask them why they gave DS 1+ out of 4 on some tests and assignments.

I did know that no one fails a grade anymore.

Re failing...it's virtually impossible to hold students back at any level (other than the credit system in grades 10-12). There are a few (very rare) cases here and there where you might see a student held back, but many are being pushed through who have not met the outcomes. Insane, really.

 

[On My Own]

Can you guys PLEASE take this to DM. What a ridiculous thing to be quarreling over when we're discussing sexual assault.

 

[Moustaffask8r]

I'm trying to understand how the filing can be considered to come from nowhere. Brennen is a journalist, one you may or may not like, but is certainly very aware of legal ramifications of reporting something that is not under investigation. Or give the person an opportunity to comment.

I know many of us may not like her reporting, but I don't equate her reporting as something from the National Enquirer or other gossip rag. I don't listen to TSL based upon the reports of FSU posters that his reports are gossipy - but Brennen? Yes I will read her and give her creed.

I do not know about this case. As far as I know I've limited to my comments to the BS of using a drunk/not responsible for behavior due to impaired status defense. I did comment on the graphic description of this rape, including the laying there to get it over with. I also stated my very strong belief that rape is rarely a one off action. I've also questioned the sincerity of an acknowledgment and "learn a lesson".

I also believe that false accusations rarely include graphic details of a rape.

Timing of the Brennan story? That's for you all to decide. And as indicated with the school standards discussion, laws vary from country to country, but employees at least in the US can and have been fired despite the lack of a conviction. But do we have any indication that SC has prohibited him from competing?

I'm going back to the BS of using alcohol as the reason rape happens. Or the defense of she/he was a willing participant by being somewhere. Just stop it.

 

[Moustaffask8r]

Defense of intoxication is not admissible to exonerate an offender from certain crimes such as rape, assault, murder.... Very poor approach to crisis management on the part of the parties involved. Skate Canada has a lot to lose if they don't ask him to withdraw from the competition out of respect for the sport, for the other athletes who have trained to compete at nationals with peace of mind, but most of all, out of respect for the victims (I'm talking here about rape victims, not just in sport, but in life in general)! In my opinion, he has everything to lose by making a selfish gesture and showing up at nationals. He should just allow the SafeSport process set up by his federation, to which he has adhered by becoming a member go ahead and follow his course. As for Skating Lesson, taking pleasure in the unfortunate events of others speaks volumes. I'm still wondering why such forums exist?

 

[once_upon]

I'm not sure he is using an Alcohol defense, I've not seen anything that indicates that.

At least one very vocal poster in this discussion has presented a defense of a "bad decision" like intoxication

That one accidental incidence should not be held against someone.

I'm just saying stop it

 

[Orm Irian]

I'm not sure he is using an Alcohol defense, I've not seen anything that indicates that.

Nobody knows what kind of defence he may or may not be using, because as far as I can tell, to date he's said exactly nothing about the allegations publicly at all.

 

[Former Lurve Goddess]

Nobody knows what kind of defence he may or may not be using, because as far as I can tell, to date he's said exactly nothing about the allegations publicly at all.

Apparently, there's a "gag rule" in place for OSIC investigations so he won't be saying anything anytime soon. Here's a X/Twitter thread about it from Amelia Cline of Gymnasts for Change. "Under these policies, all information received within the complaint process (which would naturally include the underlying allegation) is to be kept confidential by all parties, with limited exceptions."

 

[MacMadame]

You don't get drunk and "accidentally" rape someone.

It's also not a small mistake.

 

[Wyliefan]

In the words of the immortal Emily Gilmore, "A mistake is when you throw out your credit card bill. A mistake is when you forget to RSVP to a dinner party. A mistake is when the gardeners miss trash day and the barrels are full for a week. This ... was not a mistake."

 

[Kaz7714]

It's also not a small mistake.

It wrecks the victim's life... forever. Even if said victim gets over the trauma and is able to live a "normal" life. It never, ever goes away. I have worked with victims (female/male and everyone between) for 10 years. I have lived it. I know so many others.
It changes the fabric of who you are. Even if you do not let it define you. It is not just a mistake.

If any of you need help or feel after this understandably heated discussion you need to talk, there are victim support centers/organization and many self help forums in most countries. If you are in the UK or in Germany I can give you direct links if you need them.
Lots of self care and remove yourself from the discussion if you need to.
Sorry, I know this is off topic but just thought I mention it.

xxx

 

[Theatregirl1122]

Where did I say that? I told you that you are lucky that your system hasn't gone the way ours has.. Please re-read my post.

You said (yet) implying these changes were inevitable.

 

[ballettmaus]

I'm not sure he is using an Alcohol defense, I've not seen anything that indicates that.

I wanted to add that to my post and forgot. We don't even know if he was intoxicated. That's pure speculation. He might have had a few drinks but not have been drunk. He might have had a single drink, so he could have been close to sober.

In any case, all that alcohol/drugs do is lower the inhibition threshold. They don't make you do anything that you don't want to do. They just allow you to do something you wanted to do but wouldn't do in a sober state because you know it's wrong.
I also believe that it's not uncommon for someone like a rapist to start raping women in an intoxicated state and later to do it without the influence of alcohol because that inhibition threshold was lowered in a sober state once they got away with it.

 

[MacMadame]

The list goes on and on. But I know this is totally off topic so I’ll avoid carrying on here. Haha

Except you didn't. Please do.

 

[The Observer]

CBC is facing loss of funding from the govt so that might impact this. It’s not a complete lack of funding but ..

They also don’t have a great President/CEO for a while now. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2jLnS7ghJ-8

Yes, it's true that CBC has had to face budget cuts, but that does not excuse CBC Sports from completely cutting all figure skating TV coverage.

Canada is a top country in figure skating and we always got TV coverage of major events before. To not even have any TV coverage of Canadian Nationals or a World Championships taking place here in Canada is unacceptable.

CBC Sports gives hours and hours of TV coverage to hockey and other sports, so you think they could at least spare a few hours for TV coverage for figure skating.

 

[sap5]

I'm not sure if Sorensen is coaching right now, but if he is, I could see a suspension being warranted there. Debatable but within reason. OTOH, how are children or how is anyone else at risk from him competing? The question here is whether his alleged crime is significant enough to ban him from competing as a punishment (or a PR move).

While I fully support anonymous reporting, I also think anonymous reporting makes it harder. Those accused of something deserve to face their accusers and to have their say. When that doesn't happen (for good reason), I'm left with no other solution than to trust the process to play out.

If rape is about power, punishment, and abuse, then isn’t everyone around him at risk? A person who thinks it’s ok to rape has the mindset that it’s ok to treat people horribly. Sex doesn’t have to be involved in that.

 

[Private Citizen]

It seems to me that if he's competing it should be on some sort "parole" basis - no alcohol, no parties and always in the company of a minder or two.

I'd be fine with this. If he competes and later is found guilty, the results can be annulled. If he doesn't compete and is found not guilty, there's no way to turn back time and let him compete.

I believe the accusation is probably true. But 1) are people certain enough to cause Sorensen severe and irreparable harm - loss of livelihood, prize money, spot on 4CC/World team, world standing, career trajectory, etc.? I am not, based on the little we know right now. (I can and will revise my opinion if and when we learn more.) And 2) is there any other way to protect those who may be at risk while the investigative process plays out re: Sorensen? I believe there is, like the example above, and competition presents little risk. All practices and the competition are monitored; he will be watched constantly. Agreeing that he will stay in his hotel room when not competing and having someone monitor the room is one way to ensure protection of the other athletes. I'm sure there are others. There are ways other than bans to ensure everyone's protection while the investigative process plays out.

Based on what we currently know, a ban seems disproportionate right now. It presumes guilt and goes beyond what is necessary to keep athletes safe. I also think adults, including and especially Laurence F-B, deserve to make their own choices. The information has been disclosed, and everyone is aware. Let adults make their own choices about what to believe and what to do about it until the authorities reach a conclusion. Put in place safeguards to protect minors.

Well, skaters all tend to live in the same hotel and seem to have a knack for partying after the competition is over.

Most of which are not sponsored events, and I don't think he or anyone can be banned from a hotel or going to an unofficial party. Would banning John Coughlin have helped Ashley Wagner? Who knows. It may not have if he had shown up at the hotel and the after-party as Dalilah's unofficial assistant or whatever. We need 1) disclosure, which has happened here, so that people can be aware, followed by 2) investigative and criminal processes to play out, to get people who are guilty formally punished by the legal system.

 

[BittyBug]

@Private Citizen you seem to be presuming that the sole risk of having Sorensen at an event is that he might harm others physically, but what about the harm that his mere presence may cause to victims of sexual assault (which statistically is about 1 in 5 women and 1 in 71 men)? Having an accused rapist in one's presence, even if there is no physical risk of them carrying out an assault, is nonetheless triggering.

 

[Private Citizen]

@Private Citizen you seem to be presuming that the sole risk of having Sorensen at an event is that he might harm others physically, but what about the harm that his mere presence may cause to victims of sexual assault (which statistically is about 1 in 5 women and 1 in 71 men)? Having an accused rapist in one's presence, even if there is no physical risk of them carrying out an assault, is nonetheless triggering.

Changed accused to "convicted" or even "officially sanctioned," and I would agree with you.

Barring that, I would support counseling and reasonable accommodations, including separate practice or warmup time, for anyone who may be triggered by having an accused rapist being in their presence.

Banning Sorensen would cause him concrete, irreparable monetary and career harm. It is an extreme step to take without some kind of finding of fact. There are alternatives. It seems to me that people are going straight to the punishment stage without any fact finding or determination, and they are rejecting reasonable interim precautions that would keep people safe while allowing Sorensen to compete until the investigation can conclude.

 

[Former Lurve Goddess]

Most of which are not sponsored events, and I don't think he or anyone can be banned from a hotel or going to an unofficial party. Would banning John Coughlin have helped Ashley Wagner? Who knows. It may not have if he had shown up at the hotel and the after-party as Dalilah's unofficial assistant or whatever. We need 1) disclosure, which has happened here, so that people can be aware, followed by 2) investigative and criminal processes to play out, to get people who are guilty formally punished by the legal system.

As there's a "gag" rule imposed by OSIC, I don't think we're going to get much in the way of disclosure. And we need to remember that the OSIC investigation is outside of the criminal/legal system so punitive measures likely will only involve suspension and/or banning from the sport. As a huge FB/S uber, I've been thinking about what I will do if they take the ice at World's in Montreal. I think I will applaud politely for LFB's sake.

 

[Debbie S]

Just FYI, Ashley Wagner's assault didn't happen at a comp, it was a party at someone's house in CO Springs while she was there for a training camp. So a ban from skating wouldn't have kept Coughlin from the party but would have obviously made everyone aware so they could choose whether or not to attend or associate with him.

 

[BittyBug]

@Private Citizen you still seem to be assuming the impact of having an accused rapist in one's midst is limited both in scale and in severity. You mention having separate practices and warmups, which seems to suggest you at most think this is an issue for fellow competitors and possibly coaches, but what about judges, officials, event volunteers, arena employees and audience members? Do they all walk out of the arena when he's there? And even if they did, would that still prevent the PTSD from a prior sexual assault that might be triggered? (Again, statistically, 18%+ of women are victims of sexual assault.)

You also seem to imply that the accused's financial well being is more important than the mental well being of all of the victims of SA who will inevitably be at the competition (in whatever capacity) when the accused is present. Rather than being an individual rights issue, I would frame it as a public health issue (not surprising that we differ on this given our differing POVs on other public health issues, but let's leave that for PI), and in public health, the overall wellness of the public at large generally outweigh the rights of any single individual.

ETA: And I do appreciate your concern for the difference between being accused and being convicted, but in general, when one is accused of sexual assault, that person is isolated from the public, whether voluntarily or against their will via a suspension, adminisrative leave, etc.