Keeping Track of Criminal Cases & SafeSport Suspensions in Skating

[PRlady]

Wow! I almost don't know where to begin on this.

According to this site, at least one in six men has been sexually abused or assaulted. This is not a trivial number.

Furthermore, men and boys who have been sexually assaulted are far less likely than women and girls to tell anyone, let alone report it to law enforcement.

Rape Myths - Blue Sky Centre

blueskycentre.org.uk

404: Page Not Found

uncw.edu

I apologize. As you say, it’s vastly underreported. And I’m biased by straight men’s behavior to women, which obviously I do have experience with, which even when it doesn’t rise to the level of assault is so frequently a power game.

 

[Prancer]

If skaters can be suspended on the basis of reports that they took banned substances, before that evidence is confirmed

Skaters are not suspended for taking controlled substances because someone says that they took controlled substances. They are suspended after two tests confirming that they have controlled substances in their systems.

What do you consider analogous about this?

or they have the opportunity to present their side of the story, the same should be true of a report of SA. A report that seems to have enough credibility for a formal investigation to go ahead.

So Safe Sport investigators have the power to dismiss claims because the investigators make arbitrary decisions not to pursue them?

Interesting. I hadn't realized that.

 

[ignosk8er]

Okay, and what if they don't own up to it?

Moreover how can we or anyone know that they will never do it again?

 

[overedge]

Skaters are not suspended for taking controlled substances because someone says that they took controlled substances. They are suspended after two tests confirming that they have controlled substances in their systems.

What do you consider analogous about this?

So Safe Sport investigators have the power to dismiss claims because the investigators make arbitrary decisions not to pursue them?

Interesting. I hadn't realized that.

No need to be sarcastic.

OSIC (the relevant body in this case) reviews each complaint it receives, and decides whether the complaint meets its mandate and its criteria to proceed. It also has the option of declining to proceed or of referring the complaint elsewhere.

Process Overview

sportintegritycommissioner.ca

And yes, this case IMO is analogous to taking banned substances because it seems that the accusation has enough substance for the investigation to go forward.

 

[Gris]

At this moment Skate Canada should, as a minimum, pull Soerensen out of their Nationals promotional stuff. It's distasteful, to say the least.

An update: He's no longer included in the SC website banner.

 

[Prancer]

OSIC (the relevant body in this case) reviews each complaint it receives, and decides whether the complaint meets its mandate and its criteria to proceed. It also has the option of declining to proceed or of referring the complaint elsewhere.

And what is that decision, assuming that said decision has been made, based on?

And yes, this case IMO is analogous to taking banned substances because it seems that the accusation has enough substance for the investigation to go forward.

So if I filed a report with, say, Skate Canada saying that 12 years ago, I witnessed Skater X taking a controlled substance, Skater X would be suspended immediately pending an investigation?

You and I both know that wouldn't happen.

 

[peibeck]

But I would say that a person who commits a single crime is different than someone who commits multiple, and repeated crimes over their victims.

So... if your child was raped but you didn't learn about it until a decade later when the statute of limitations had run out, it would be "different" (in apparently some positive way?) if you also found out the rapist only victimized your kid, but no one else?

 

[MacMadame]

I also wont ever agree to making everyone within their smaller and larger circles speak out against them or shun them publicly, and I certainly won’t agree to faceless, nameless social media profiles trolling and stating everything as matter of fact each time.

Then it's good that no one in this thread is advocating for that.

Does someone owning up to it heal the victim?

Speaking as a victim, it certainly makes it hard to move on when they do not.

 

[Hedwig]

Good discussion here for sure. I definitely didn't mean to insinuate that a "one" moment shouldn't count. But I would say that a person who commits a single crime is different than someone who commits multiple, and repeated crimes over their victims. A hockey coach that abuses numerous boys over a 10 year period, grooming them, entertaining them at his home etc, is definitely different to me than a person who gets drunk and assaults (physical, sexual, etc) to another person.

But there is. At least in law. Someone like Larry Nassar who abused hundreds of women is in jail for life.
rapists you describe- mostly slap on the wrist. Sometimes jail time for 1-3 years in the very worst cases.

So the law makes a huge difference. And what is done to rapists ist laughable. Some are excused with "just one time" and "we don't want to make his life hard for one mistake".

Is that right? If Nassar had beed stopped after the first, second or tenth time someone accused him of sexual assault, wouldn’t that have been better than your idea of „one time“ that everyone thought each time a new complaint came because they did not even take it seriously enough to look for other claims or they were never filed?

It was just unimportant girls who wanted to make themselves important. And he was an important doctor and no one wanted to make his life any harder with just one accusation. So it was not filed. And no one saw that there would have been more and more and more accusations against him.

It took someone going to the press and some determined parents not staying still, to finally bring him to court.

If this "only a single crime" philosophy had not been in the heads of countless people, so many young women would not have been abused.

Go and watch Athlet A on Netflix if you can stand to watch it without crying.

 

[Hedwig]

And do you believe that he could sue and win?

I do.

that is why I said I hoped that he would do the decent thing and not compete himself.
Or that his coaches would pull him.

 

[Hedwig]

I agree that cases should be investigated before judgment is passed. Statistics do not apply to individuals and I find it disturbing that people are making the argument that they don't care if sometimes men's lives are destroyed by false reports because so many more women are harmed without justice. I don't understand that thinking and I think people might want to ponder the implications of that line of thought.

I agree to a point. Like others have said - I always START by believing the victim (unless the report rings very false from the start, but I cannot remember such an incident, but then I usually try to avoid these discussions as they usually start to get very ugly against women very fast) - but of course no one should be thrown in jail without trial.

But suspending employing when young children are involved and generally trying to minimize risks for people involved should be done quickly, IMO.

Someone who rapes and sexually molests is not just sexually deviant but has no respect for (some) women and uses (physical) power - this is just too dangerous to wait and see (as we saw with Nassar)

but then? That is the hard part. Most rapes that long ago will never be proved. So what should we do then if there is no legal conclusion? We cannot, as a society, bring all men accused of rape to jail. There ARE false positives. And if such a procedure was established, this would of course be used against men.

But at the same time, we cannot go on like this. Getting men get away with it, blaming the victim, saying it was "one moment of mistake"? This cannot go on either.

I have no solution. Only huge anger and despair.


So much this:

But the idea that one "moment" doesn't count? Or shouldn't? That other victims have to step forward for a report to be taken seriously? So if I accuse someone of beating me up or stealing from me, does that have credence only if other people come forward and say that the accused did it to them, too?

I don't understand that thinking, either. You are making the exact argument that Brock Turner's father made. Is that your intent?

 

[Private Citizen]

I agree to a point. Like others have said - I always START by believing the victim (unless the report rings very false from the start, but I cannot remember such an incident, but then I usually try to avoid these discussions as they usually start to get very ugly against women very fast) - but of course no one should be thrown in jail without accusations.

But suspending employing when young children are involved and generally trying to minimize risks for people involved should be done quickly, IMO.

I'm not sure if Sorensen is coaching right now, but if he is, I could see a suspension being warranted there. Debatable but within reason. OTOH, how are children or how is anyone else at risk from him competing? The question here is whether his alleged crime is significant enough to ban him from competing as a punishment (or a PR move).

While I fully support anonymous reporting, I also think anonymous reporting makes it harder. Those accused of something deserve to face their accusers and to have their say. When that doesn't happen (for good reason), I'm left with no other solution than to trust the process to play out.

 

[cholla]

I'm not sure if Sorensen is coaching right now, but if he is, I could see a suspension being warranted there.

We interviewed him (and Laurence) one year ago and at the time he was coaching kids. Don't know if it's still the case but I assume so as it seemed to be a significant part of his income. IMO he should be barred from approaching kids within a 10 miles radius and as of right now. I agree that him competing doesn't put anyone specifically at risk but what kind of example and precedent does it give? I'm extremely uncomfortable with this.

 

[Former Lurve Goddess]

We interviewed him (and Laurence) one year ago and at the time he was coaching kids. Don't know if it's still the case but I assume so as it seemed to be a significant part of his income. IMO he should be barred from approaching kids within a 10 miles radius and as of right now. I agree that him competing doesn't put anyone specifically at risk but what kind of example and precedent does it give? I'm extremely uncomfortable with this.

It seems to me that if he's competing it should be on some sort "parole" basis - no alcohol, no parties and always in the company of a minder or two.

 

[ballettmaus]

A hockey coach that abuses numerous boys over a 10 year period, grooming them, entertaining them at his home etc, is definitely different to me than a person who gets drunk and assaults (physical, sexual, etc) to another person.

What are the odds that someone whose gotten drunk once never gets drunk again? What are the odds that the behavior displayed in a drunken state once won't be displayed again, especially when the person got away with it before?

Also, how can anyone know for sure that it was just once? Just because a person gets caught once, just because a person is accused once doesn't mean that it has happened before or after the reported incident.
By that logic, a person who committed the same crime several times but gets caught only the last time, should be given a break if law enforcement is only aware of that once crime because it appears to be the first time even though it's not. That makes no sense.

OTOH, how are children or how is anyone else at risk from him competing?

Well, skaters all tend to live in the same hotel and seem to have a knack for partying after the competition is over.

 

[BlueRidge]

This is why I think there should be existing policies to deal with this circumstance, so there isn't a sense of 'oh no what should be done in all this.'

Organizations are going to find themselves in a situation where a person associated with their organization has had an accusation made against them but the adjudication is in process and the outcome unknown. They should have a set policy for how they will deal with the situation so it doesn't become an issue of the specific details of the particular incident (or about the character of the individuals involved).

The period when an accusation is made but the situation unresolved needs to be one that is safe for the accuser and fair to the accused which a set policy would most allow. People who want to come forward but contemplate a chaotic situation for months or longer when they are vulnerable may keep quiet and this is part of the problem we have in dealing with rampant sexual abuse.

This may all be pie in the sky right now, but these situations are not rare and are going to happen and organizations and individuals should not be surprised that they have to deal with this.

 

[BittyBug]

While I fully support anonymous reporting, I also think anonymous reporting makes it harder. Those accused of something deserve to face their accusers and to have their say. When that doesn't happen (for good reason), I'm left with no other solution than to trust the process to play out.

is the accuser’s identity not known to Sorensen? Christine Brennan's article says, "The woman is not being identified because USA TODAY Sports does not publish the names of victims of alleged sexual abuse." From this I assume that her name is in the report, in which case the reporting would not be anonymous.

 

[Former Lurve Goddess]

This is why I think there should be existing policies to deal with this circumstance, so there isn't a sense of 'oh no what should be done in all this.'

100% agreed. And I'm betting that Skate Canada and IAM never imagined the current scenario and don't have anything adequate in place to deal with it so they're likely scrambling to figure out what to do.

 

[Wyliefan]

OTOH, how are children or how is anyone else at risk from him competing?

How was Ashley Wagner at risk from John Coughlin competing? And yet ...

 

[coppertop1]

How was Ashley Wagner at risk from John Coughlin competing? And yet ...

Or his own partner, in that case.

 

[Prancer]

And I'm betting that Skate Canada and IAM never imagined the current scenario

If any organization never imagines that they will have to deal with accusations of sexual assault, it can only be because the organization has its head in....the sand. Hasn't SC already had to deal with accusations? There is nothing really exceptional about this case in that respect. There are some unusual circumstances, but none that make a difference in terms of how the organizations should address the problem--if they had policies in place.

 

[sap5]

I might have chosen before Worlds, since Canadian Nats doesn't even have a TV contract, and 4C's isn't exactly prime-time, by reputation, attendance, or time-zone friendly to North America or Europe.

Wow, really? Obviously I haven't been paying attention to fs for a while, but I am surprised how far interest has fallen. What a sad state of affairs.

 

[Former Lurve Goddess]

Wow, really? Obviously I haven't been paying attention to fs for a while, but I am surprised how far interest has fallen. What a sad state of affairs.

CBC will just be streaming Canadian Nats but no TV coverage. I'm curious as to whether they'll be broadcasting any highlights from World's - does anyone know?

 

[sap5]

Actually, I have two kids. I'm around kids all the time. Drag my kids to sporting and arts events. Involved in coaching as well. My kids know that they are good at some things, and not good at others. We have taught them the value of hard work. If their teacher gives them a bad mark on something, they know that they deserve it and need to worker harder next time. I'm not the person who runs to the teacher and blames them for my child's short comings. We set realistic goals with our kids and have expectations that they become good human beings. I come from a family of educators. We respect teachers, but are worried about the failings of teh system that is badly mismanaged with more and more kids coming to school unprepared. Their parents are distracted and not parenting like previous generations. My partner is an educator, and many of my friends are as well.

The education system is failing, because kids are promoted who are not meeting outcomes and always told how great they are. It's a real problem. They can't handle failure. They can't handle anything but a perfect 100% on all assignments. I had a student once who cried because she thought she should get 100% because she completed the assignment. This is a generational and systematic issue and we are destroying kids by letting them think that they are all winners in everything they do, and that they "can do anything they want"... we are lying to them, and they cannot cope when the real world slams them in the face.

So what did you tell this student?

 

[Tesla]

So what did you tell this student?

And what kind of student was she? Is she someone for whom school is extremely difficult and it took her everything to complete the assignment? Was completing the assignment a success for her?

 

[once_upon]

.completely off topic from rape allegations

Participation awards were given out when I was in school 60 years ago. Perfect attendance, school safety guards, certificates for being part of state band, or choir, or debate, or cheerleaders or a boatload of other activities. Even adults got participation awards and pins for things like bowling. I have an entire charm bracelet filled with pendants of bowling tournaments.

Back to rape accusations and validity of and consequences of.

 

[fsfann]

So what did you tell this student?

I told her that just because she answered all the questions she did not answer them fully and in depth. We worked on it and moving forward she did a much better job on her assignments. But it was the first time she was encouraged to better than superficial answers on her work.

.completely off topic from rape allegations

Participation awards were given out when I was in school 60 years ago. Perfect attendance, school safety guards, certificates for being part of state band, or choir, or debate, or cheerleaders or a boatload of other activities. Even adults got participation awards and pins for things like bowling. I have an entire charm bracelet filled with pendants of bowling tournaments.

Back to rape accusations and validity of and consequences of.

Sorry, I should clarify my original post. Yes, participation awards have always been in place and they are great to have. But removing achievement awards for “winning” is what I disagree with, especially at older elementary and junior/high school ages.

Some real world examples:

• some schools are not recognizing “honours” anymore because it is “unfair to students who might not do as well academically.”
• many sports activities do not keep score in games because kids might feel bad if they are losing. (Even though every single kid on the team keeps track in their mind)
• at lower level figure skating events, you receive gold silver and bronze based on elements completed. They don’t recognize the people who actually finish in first, second and third in competitions
• some musical events (festivals/competitions) do not allow anyone to finish lower than third. So if there are 6 or 7 people competing, all of them have to finish in the “top 3”
• ski races at younger levels no longer keep track of placement of in races because someone might be upset with not finishing in the top 10
• teachers cannot assign zeros for Incomplete work anymore in many jurisdictions
• the “lowest” mark you can give in any schools is 50%. So if a kid passes in a blank assignment with their name on it the “lowest” mark they can get is 50% (at the junior high level)
• kids who fail a course after the course is over are allowed to submit assignments months after in an effort to change their mark and to get the credit (at the high school level)

The list goes on and on. But I know this is totally off topic so I’ll avoid carrying on here. Haha

 

[Theatregirl1122]

Some real world examples:

• some schools are not recognizing “honours” anymore because it is “unfair to students who might not do as well academically.”
• many sports activities do not keep score in games because kids might feel bad if they are losing. (Even though every single kid on the team keeps track in their minds
• teachers cannot assign zeros for Incomplete work anymore in many jurisdictions
• the “lowest” mark you can give in any schools is 50%. So if a kid passes in a blank assignment with their name on it the “lowest” mark they can get is 50% (at the junior high level)
• kids who fail a course after the course is over are allowed to submit assignments months after in an effort to change their mark and to get the credit (at the high school level)

Wow, I guess I should let my school know that these things that EVERYONE KNOWS are happening at all schools aren't happening in my district. We must be confused! For example, you can't give less than a 50% in any schools?? Man, I just entered a whole bunch of 0s and 30%s. I'm going to be fired!

 

[Judy]

Wow, really? Obviously I haven't been paying attention to fs for a while, but I am surprised how far interest has fallen. What a sad state of affairs.

CBC is facing loss of funding from the govt so that might impact this. It’s not a complete lack of funding but ..

They also don’t have a great President/CEO for a while now. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2jLnS7ghJ-8

 

[fsfann]

Wow, I guess I should let my school know that these things that EVERYONE KNOWS are happening at all schools aren't happening in my district. We must be confused! For example, you can't give less than a 50% in any schools?? Man, I just entered a whole bunch of 0s and 30%s. I'm going to be fired!

Thank your district/state/province for not enforcing this (yet). The no zero rule came into effect in Nova Scotia about 10 years ago. The junior high “nothing below 50” was brought in more recently. The “kids can’t fail” (up until grade 9 has been in place for at least 20 years. Probably longer.