Just call me Harry. (Everything Harry & Meghan)

[Spikefan]

I'm not even really a fan of them (I am anti-monarchy, FTR) but I find myself defending them all the time because of things like insisting that they said they want privacy (when they didn't) but now they are doing things that put them in the spotlight -- those hypocrites! Or picking apart everything they do and say to find something to pounce on. Her dad got her letter noticed! Her shower wasn't in the UK and had sponsors! Etc. Etc.

This is exactly where I am. I just watched the documentary out of boredom/curiosity and here I am defending them.

Most children that start any activism or charity have an adult that helps them get it noticed, especially prior to social media. I cannot imagine writing a book with something so trivial as a major plot point.

 

[becca]

I don’t see the big deal if Meghan’s Dad helped her with her activism or if she helped plan her own baby shower she lived overseas she kind of had to be involved.

What I don’t like about Meghan and Harry is that there was literally no responsibility taking.

I find bull that Meghan couldn’t invite her niece. Kate was allowed to invite her uncle with a criminal record to her wedding.

Inviting Oprah, Reese, and the Clooneys was more important to Meghan (and that was the stuff that made me question her)

She could have said I am inviting my niece.

I read that William went to the Queen about his wedding and asked for less dignataries and more people that they actual knew.


Yes there was racism but in the beginning Meghan and Harry were extremely popular and many saw her being bi racial as a good thing.

What I don’t like them is the failure to recognize their own privilege.

King Charles gave them millions. They are the ones who chose to leave so that they could make millions upon millions due to their connections to the royal family. Why should they get their security paid for?

The half in and half out thing was already tried by the royal family with Edward and Sophie and it didn’t work. The last thing they wanted was an even part time member of the royal family appearing to cash in on the royal connections.

My father didn’t give me enough money, our temporary housing (where Kate, William, and George lived wasn’t good enough) is all incredibly ridiculous privileged stuff.)


And I will say this Meghan and Harry talk about how they want no relationship with her father because he talked to the Press.

But see no issue with themselves taking about private interactions with Harry’s family to the press.

Furthermore they provided no actual evidence that William or Charles offices were leaking stories about them and in fact members of the royal rota are saying the royals in no way make their job that easy.

 

[morqet]

I don't really understand what people expected or why what happened is at all remarkable. Having sponsors to donate stuff and help with costs is how celebrities have milestone parties. Meghan isn't some random person with a private life whose friends and families organize a low-key shower that doesn't make the news. She is and was a celebrity and she had a celebrity shower with her celebrity friends.

Sure, you can do that as a celebrity. But you can't do it as a member of the royal family, she can't use her royal status for commercial gain.

Ultimately, the problem for Meghan is that she doesn't seem to have realised the compromises you have to make in the royal family. You get money and status, but you have to be neutral, uncontroversial. You can't make political statements. It's very hard to have a career (beyond possibly in the military) while retaining full time royal status - look at Edward and Sophie's issues. She can not carry on with normal celebrity behaviour while being a working royal. She could have had a very private but still lavish shower in England, which the press couldn't really have commented on because they are incredibly well shielded from the media when at the royal palaces. It's much harder to maintain the privacy and freedom from criticism while also living your life out in the open.

Read Hilary Mantel's Royal Bodies essay - about the existence of the monarchy depending on the individual giving up their sense of self in service of the institution's image. Meghan and Harry seem to have worked out that that state of affairs sucks, but they can't follow the logic through that to regain the individual autonomy you have to renounce the whole institution. It is not going to bend for you.

 

[MsZem]

But so much of the criticism she gets seems off-base to me. I'm not even really a fan of them (I am anti-monarchy, FTR) but I find myself defending them all the time because of things like insisting that they said they want privacy (when they didn't) but now they are doing things that put them in the spotlight -- those hypocrites! Or picking apart everything they do and say to find something to pounce on. Her dad got her letter noticed! Her shower wasn't in the UK and had sponsors! Etc. Etc.

I don't think they want privacy so much as they want control: over their daily lives, over their image, over their narrative. Which is very understandable; royal life comes with many privileges, but it also entails a loss of control over aspects of one's life that many people - especially people like Meghan, who was a successful and independent adult woman - might find hard to accept. I don't fault them at all for not wanting that life.

The thing is, they get to control their image, their story, and their brand now. What they don't get to control is how other people will feel about it or respond to it. And for me at least, it seems like they expected the reactions of the BRF to fall in line with what they wanted, without recognizing that QE, or Charles, or William, might value a different path and advocate for it - passionately, even. Which isn't a very mature approach to things, TBH.

This is not to excuse vile racists or vile press coverage, both of which are unacceptable.

 

[taf2002]

I think William was way out of line asking Harry to wait. Harry never was going to be king so what difference did it make if the marriage didn't work out & he ended up getting married & divorced numerous times? Besides Meghan was 36(?) so Harry probably didn't want to marry her when she was 46 (or whatever age William deemed appropriate). I personally think William was an ass for taking 10 years for his courtship but that was his & Kate's business. It didn't seem to be troubling to him that Kate was called Waity Kate in the media. At least Harry is protective of Meghan's media coverage. And Harry's short courtship was his & Meghan's business not William's. DH & I married 4 months after meeting & we've been married 37 years. Short courtship in really young couples could be concerning but that may not be a issue for people in their 30s.

 

[clairecloutier]

I just read the other day that Charles and Diana met in person only 13 times before their marriage.

William took things to the other extreme. LOL. And Harry and Meghan were somewhere in the middle.

 

[MsZem]

I think William was way out of line asking Harry to wait. Harry never was going to be king so what difference did it make if the marriage didn't work out & he ended up getting married & divorced numerous times? Besides Meghan was 36(?) so Harry probably didn't want to marry her when she was 46 (or whatever age William deemed appropriate). I personally think William was an ass for taking 10 years for his courtship but that was his & Kate's business.

Asking/advising is not the same as ordering him to do something. William made a suggestion, Harry decided not to take it, why does this need to be a melodrama?

I just read the other day that Charles and Diana met in person only 13 times before their marriage.

William took things to the other extreme. LOL. And Harry and Meghan were somewhere in the middle.

They met young and married in their late twenties. Perfectly normal.

 

[taf2002]

Asking/advising is not the same as ordering him to do something. William made a suggestion, Harry decided not to take it, why does this need to be a melodrama?


They met young and married in their late twenties. Perfectly normal.

It was melodrama because apparently William didn't drop it.

 

[marbri]

I don’t see a mental health issue as a flaw and we need to stop seeing them as such. William is definitely not equipped to deal with it but from history “the institution” thinks you should just deal with it. Neither brothers fault or flaw but definitely a a huge flaw of “the institution” which is really the thing that is A LOT.

Where did I call mental health a flaw?
I didn't.

 

[airgelaal]

Just to be clear, the issue of security is not just about the money. Harry wasn't allowed to get security even when there was time to plan for it (as opposed to the sudden withdrawal of security when he was in Canada and under threat) and he was the one who would be paying for it. What he apparently did pay a "price" for was not being perfectly compliant with the wishes of the royal family and palace.

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-62265278

To be honest, I don’t really understand why he needs so many guards. And how then do his cousins Beatrice and Evgenia live without protection, for example? How do other Hollywood stars live without the protection of Scotland Yard?

They wanted to escape the palace, I can understand that. But, as I understand it, in order to earn a living, they will sell stories about their life in the palace

 

[VGThuy]

To be honest, I don’t really understand why he needs so many guards. And how then do his cousins Beatrice and Evgenia live without protection, for example? How do other Hollywood stars live without the protection of Scotland Yard?

They wanted to escape the palace, I can understand that. But, as I understand it, in order to earn a living, they will sell stories about their life in the palace

I don’t think Beatrice and Evengia can compare to the fanfare and notoriety of Harry, especially with all the Diana obsession. Adults have been following him since he was a child.

 

[airgelaal]

I wonder how the situation would play out if Catherine was bi-racial, had been married before, had a successful career as an actress and William chose her. Would the BRF have accepted her, would the public have accepted her? Would the BRF questioned who ethnicity Prince George, Princess Charlotte and Prince Louis would favor? If any Meaghan detractors are truly, truly honest - they would say No.

I didn't even know Meaghan was mixed race until the media started pointing it out. And it's strange for me to hear that all the problems are due to the fact that Meghan is not white and divorced. Naturally, Meaghan herself as a person should be liked by everyone
And let's not forget who is now the Queen in Great Britain

 

[airgelaal]

I don’t think Beatrice and Evengia can compare to the fanfare and notoriety of Harry, especially with all the Diana obsession. Adults have been following him since he was a child.

So what? From the point of view of the law, they are equal - non-working members of the royal family. Why should Harry be treated differently? And did Canada treat him the same way? Maybe half the country spent the night next to his house every day?
And, I repeat, how do all Hollywood stars live without the protection of Scotland Yard? Or is their popularity not as big as that of Meghan and Harry?

 

[VGThuy]

So what? From the point of view of the law, they are equal - non-working members of the royal family. Why should Harry be treated differently? And did Canada treat him the same way? Maybe half the country spent the night next to his house every day?
And, I repeat, how do all Hollywood stars live without the protection of Scotland Yard? Or is their popularity not as big as that of Meghan and Harry?

Yes. You're asking for us to buy two things (actually multiple things) as analogous when they're clearly not.

 

[skategal]

So what? From the point of view of the law, they are equal - non-working members of the royal family. Why should Harry be treated differently? And did Canada treat him the same way? Maybe half the country spent the night next to his house every day?
And, I repeat, how do all Hollywood stars live without the protection of Scotland Yard? Or is their popularity not as big as that of Meghan and Harry?

As far as I know, no one in Canada threatened their lives and largely let them be.

Doesn’t mean some deranged person couldn’t enter Canada and harm them though.

 

[once_upon]

I didn't even know Meaghan was mixed race until the media started pointing it out. And it's strange for me to hear that all the problems are due to the fact that Meghan is not white and divorced. Naturally, Meaghan herself as a person should be liked by everyone
And let's not forget who is now the Queen in Great Britain

I didn't know she was bi racial until everyone here and in press told me. My impression was that she is beautiful and skin is lovely.

I didn't know she was divorced until media and people here harped on it.

No one needs to like everyone, the BRF seems to polarize women against each other - Diana vs Camila, Kate vs Meaghan - as if you being positive about one means you can't be positive about the other.

Family dynamics are wicked as a peon/peasant. Celebrity family dynamics are several levels of hell above that. Royal family dynamics have to be unimaginably hell, all in a fish bowl where everyone has an opinion on everything.

 

[airgelaal]

As far as I know, no one in Canada threatened their lives and largely let them be.

Doesn’t mean some deranged person couldn’t enter Canada and harm them though.

There are many crazy people in the world. Many crazy people attack ordinary people. Does this mean that now everyone needs special protection?
I can understand Harry's desire, but I don't understand why he got offended when he didn't get what he wanted. Even a member of the royal family does not always have to get what he wants. C'est la vie

 

[skategal]

I didn't know she was bi racial until everyone here and in press told me. My impression was that she is beautiful and skin is lovely.

I didn't know she was divorced until media and people here harped on it.

No one needs to like everyone, the BRF seems to polarize women against each other - Diana vs Camila, Kate vs Meaghan - as if you being positive about one means you can't be positive about the other.

Family dynamics are wicked as a peon/peasant. Celebrity family dynamics are several levels of hell above that. Royal family dynamics have to be unimaginably hell, all in a fish bowl where everyone has an opinion on everything.

The BRF give the spouses such a hard time. I guess they want them to be happy to be included and to know their place.

Jokes on them as most of us have realized the spouses are the best part of the Royal Family and most of the born into Royalty members don’t hold a candle to the spouses they marry.

 

[skategal]

There are many crazy people in the world. Many crazy people attack ordinary people. Does this mean that now everyone needs special protection?
I can understand Harry's desire, but I don't understand why he got offended when he didn't get what he wanted. Even a member of the royal family does not always have to get what he wants. C'est la vie

People who have death threats and media calling for their harm tend to need/get security no matter who they are.

 

[morqet]

So what? From the point of view of the law, they are equal - non-working members of the royal family. Why should Harry be treated differently? And did Canada treat him the same way? Maybe half the country spent the night next to his house every day?
And, I repeat, how do all Hollywood stars live without the protection of Scotland Yard? Or is their popularity not as big as that of Meghan and Harry?

Even some working members of the royal family do not get full time armed security, only when they are on official engagements (Princess Anne, Edward & Sophie). Harry & Meghan would have continued receiving full police protection, including personal protection officers, if they remained full time working royals, as they were higher profile, had more credible threats and are closer to the line of succession. But once they decide to stop being members of the royal family, they lose that entitlement to the security funded by tax payers. If QEII or Charles had wanted, they could have funded an element of it themselves, in the way that was done for Andrew by QEII.

I guess the slight complication is that you can't have armed private security in the UK in the way you can in the US? So in the US you can pay for a "higher level" of protection than you can in the UK. Equally, if the police in the UK deemed that there were imminent credible threats to H&M and their children, they would have amped up protection, but it would be the same as would be accorded to any UK resident, no special treatment for being royal or a celebrity.

Again, it's the wanting the benefits that you get by being a working member of the royal family, without accepting any of the trade offs that come with it.

 

[Barbara Manatee]

I think William was way out of line asking Harry to wait. Harry never was going to be king so what difference did it make if the marriage didn't work out & he ended up getting married & divorced numerous times? Besides Meghan was 36(?) so Harry probably didn't want to marry her when she was 46 (or whatever age William deemed appropriate). I personally think William was an ass for taking 10 years for his courtship but that was his & Kate's business. It didn't seem to be troubling to him that Kate was called Waity Kate in the media. At least Harry is protective of Meghan's media coverage. And Harry's short courtship was his & Meghan's business not William's.

There is nothing wrong with a quick marriage. It does seem to be working well for them, too. But rushing into the working royalty was a mistake (and that part is William's business). Meghan says she didn't expect or understand the protocols and rules and hierarchy within the institution, wasn't prepared for the cultural differences, and struggled with the isolation from her old life and friends. She was overwhelmed by the press and public scrutiny. Anyone would have been!! I blame Harry for not making sure Meghan had a better idea of what she was getting in to. Maybe the whole thing wouldn't have blown up if they'd taken a year or two in a more low key role to settle in, start their family, and learn the ropes. That's on the palace, too, it shouldn't have thrown caution to winds and gone all in on the 'hit the ground running' plan.

Kate and William's long build-up may not feel as romantic as a whirlwind courtship, but it did give Kate a good long look at what her life would be like and the freedom to make an informed choice. That's my idea of a fairy tale ending.

 

[airgelaal]

People who have death threats and media calling for their harm tend to need/get security no matter who they are.

No one forbade him to hire security. But he wanted special protection that only working members of the royal family can get. I don't understand why there should have been exceptions for Harry and Meghan.

In the documentary, Harry said

Anyone inside that system, whether it's my family, whether it's staff, whether it's PR, whoever it is, have already missed an enormous opportunity with my wife, and how far that would go globally.

It seems to me that he and Meghan greatly overestimate their importance to Britain and the world

 

[VGThuy]

No one forbade him to hire security. But he wanted special protection that only working members of the royal family can get. I don't understand why there should have been exceptions for Harry and Meghan.

In the documentary, Harry said


It seems to me that he and Meghan greatly overestimate their importance to Britain and the world

Well, they're clearly important to you.

 

[Spikefan]

Where did I call mental health a flaw?
I didn't.

"A lot" in any family in the context I used with the quote attributed to William ( I don't know if the Times is a tabloid or the royal correspondent who wrote it is any more tabloid-y than say Omid Scobie ) applies to any families dealing with a family member with mental health issues (stemming from a very real childhood trauma) that by their own admission dealt with a lot of anxiety, panic attacks and anger issues that led to "years of chaos" to the point their brother (by their own admission) stepped in and said you need to get help, talk to someone (professional) to help you deal with what you have buried for all these years. And also went on to support a charity for mental health with his brother and his brothers wife.

Many times families in these situations spend the bulk of their worry on the specific individual to the detriment of their own mental and physical health. And find themselves labelled the villain in the process.

But I mean if you want to hang out in the shallow end where his only two flaws are wearing a Nazi costume and a party in Vegas go for it. I prefer to swim in the deep end.

It was not direct but your whole example of “a lot” was about dealing with a family member’s mental health issues and then mention where people are only seeing two flaws when he has others. If that is not what was intended it probably would have been best to leave the whole mental health aspect out and give some examples of flaws.

 

[once_upon]

Honestly, as the spare and having been born into the BRF, I don't think Harry had much of a clue as to how different celebrity status as a royal is - it was just part of his life. William was most likely schooled from day 1 what a mate would need to know, do, act. William was raised to be king. Harry was not. Some of the lessons were most likely not given to Harry.

In discussing moving to another country somewhere else on this board, people can think it will be easy transition especially if you speak the language. Moving anywhere, adopting customs is never easy transition. My guess - it's only a guess - is that Meaghan and Harry considered she acclimated to living in both US and Canada, that England would be similar. But entering into another family circle is hard and almost impossible in a family steeped in deep tradition with pitfalls at every step.

It's easy for me to question need for security. I've never had it. I rarely am concerned for my personal safety. I watch my surroundings - who doesn't. I'm sure part of Harry's BRF upbringing even BEFORE his mother's death was "people want to kill us, that's why we have guards. Watch your surroundings, be alert". That has to play big time into your psyche before you lost your mother. After? A billion, trillion times worse.

Do they need that much security? I don't know. I cannot compare what I think is his threat concern vs what he thinks it is.

William may have been trying to be a loving brother by advising him to wait - he comes from an entirely different circumstance. He did find love early, he did have time to take it slow and to the world it seemed ideal. Harry found love later, I assume wanted his brother to be thrilled and happy. Any advise from William is going to be taken as criticism.***

On top of everything in the actual family, the rest of the world thinks they need to intervene. I see the story and books of Meaghan and Harry as trying to explain life from their viewpoint. As is always the case - there is truth in all parts of stories from all people.

***I have one son who desperately wants his brother to approve of him, his brother wants him to succeed and provides unwanted advise-they are estranged because of that. This is how I see it happening here.

 

[airgelaal]

Well, they're clearly important to you.

For me? I just need topics to distract me. Nothing more.

 

[skategal]

In the documentary, Harry said


It seems to me that he and Meghan greatly overestimate their importance to Britain and the world

I think that’s true because this is not the first time the BRF has missed the opportunity with the spouses.

They missed it with Diana, Fergie and now to a lesser extent with Kate and Camilla.

Eugenia and Beatrice are not showcased as they could be.

I could keep going on this one.

They are so threatened by smart powerful charismatic women.

 

[clairecloutier]

@airgelaal There is some thought that Harry's level of security risk is higher than other royals due to his service in Afghanistan.

‘Clearly a target’: Ex SAS soldier warns Prince Harry ‘at risk’

‘He will need some form of security for a long time.’

7news.com.au

When you combine that with the possible risk that Meghan may face from racist nut jobs armed extremists, I can understand his concerns.

Meghan and Harry faced 'disgusting and very real' threats, ex-counterterror chief says | CNN

Meghan, Duchess of Sussex and her husband Prince Harry faced "disgusting and very real" threats from right-wing extremists, a former counterterrorism police chief has said.

www.cnn.com

 

[airgelaal]

@airgelaal There is some thought that Harry's level of security risk is higher than other royals due to his service in Afghanistan.

‘Clearly a target’: Ex SAS soldier warns Prince Harry ‘at risk’

‘He will need some form of security for a long time.’

7news.com.au

When you combine that with the possible risk that Meghan may face from racist nut jobs armed extremists, I can understand his concerns.

I also can understand his concerns but almost every celebrity has "fans". Prince Andrew took part in the Falklands War, he may also have enemies. An armed criminal tried to kidnap Princess Anne. Princess Diana fans hate Charles and Camila. Eggs are thrown at Charles from time to time. I remember there were even threats to Prince George. I'm sorry, but I don't understand why Harry and Meghan's situation is so unique. I'm not saying it's okay to be threatened. Rockets fly at me regularly and it's not just verbal threats. Still, I don't think anyone should be given special treatment just because they have a special status.

 

[VGThuy]

And didn't Prince Andrew still receive heightened security protection, even when he stepped back? Harry might not be a working royal any longer, but he can't help but be born into a crazy situation that was heightened due to the sheer phenomenon of who his mom was and the attention she garnered on top of being a Royal, direct heir to the Queen and to the heir-apparent now King. Add on to Meghan Markle who has received an increasingly amount of vitriol, whether or not it started that way remains to be seen but there's some rewriting of history to paint Meghan as starting out having it easy with no passionate people just not being able to take her for a myriad of reasons. Now we have British celebs writing op-eds about how she's worse than a serial killer and wanting her to be shamed on the streets with things thrown at her while naked, whether or not he was being sarcastic doesn't really matter.

The Institution should probably be more aware of the unique hotbed of a situation that isn't quite just another security concern that all famous people have.