John Coughlin has died

[rfisher]

And this is what I worry about. I don't think John would have posted that he didn't know the accusation details if he didn't know them. Sexual misconduct can literally be 'too crude of sexual jokes' or whatever. This is not suggesting accusers don't need to be heard and protected. But the court of internet opinion on John is out of control when no one knows squat except that there are 3 filings of 'sexual misconduct'. I honestly think they should finish the investigation. If there's something there, there's closure for the accusers. If not, some closure for the family and John's name.

SafeSport will only continue their investigation if there are others involved. Their mandate is the safety of the athlete. If the police wish to pursue an investigation, that is up to them. They have to investigate any unattended death, but the extent of that is variable and depends on a coroner's report. SafeSport is working with the individuals who filed complaints. They cannot work with John's family or friends as that would be a violation of privacy. Sorry, but that's just how it will be.

 

[Sylvia]

Maxim Trankov: https://www.instagram.com/p/Bs5GCWGnLoF/

Miki Ando: https://www.instagram.com/p/Bs4limXAj7n/

 

[LarrySK8]

Sexual assault is just that. Sexual touching or act without consent. Sexual misconduct can be unwelcome dirty jokes. Yet public opinion is formed that John was a child molester. I have seen pedophile, pervert, rapist, child rapist comments. And this is why releasing information, while the right thing to do, is also so damaging to the accused. Words are a weapon in the hands of misinformed, ill-intended and ignorant. But what's the alternative?

The alternative would be for Leese and Brennan to QUALIFY their reporting by saying, "the details of the misconduct are not known. Conclusions can not be based on the fact that an investigation is underway on misconduct." i.e. specify for the public more clearly what was happening.

Reporters KNOW that a hot topic like this will lead to accusations, misunderstandings, etc. But they ignored that, Brennan herself saying, "That's not the fault of the reporters. Don't attack the messenger." But we SHOULD attack the messenger when they mislead and allow the public's imagination to run wild.

The idea he could have lost everything and killed himself over possibly telling a dirty joke is horrifying.

 

[olympic]

Christine Brennan reported yesterday in her article in USA Today that there were 3 allegations, 2 from minors. We will never know exactly what happened because John drowned in his own grief and there will never be an answer.

I have no idea how we go about respecting the memory of John but respect those that came forward.

 

[Kasey]

I believe that humans are complex enough that a person can respect and remember fondly the times and memories they had with him, while still acknowledging that he could have done wrong to others, and support others in their recovery from those wrongs. Despite what I see on a daily basis, I try to believe that the human race isn't actually genetically stupid.

 

[Perky Shae Lynn]

The alternative would be for Leese and Brennan to QUALIFY their reporting by saying, "the details of the misconduct are not known. Conclusions can not be based on the fact that an investigation is underway on misconduct." i.e. specify for the public more clearly what was happening.

Reporters KNOW that a hot topic like this will lead to accusations, misunderstandings, etc. But they ignored that, Brennan herself saying, "That's not the fault of the reporters. Don't attack the messenger." But we SHOULD attack the messenger when they mislead and allow the public's imagination to run wild.

Tabloids don't care about who they hurt. Someone else's tragedy is click-bait to Brennan and Leese. They are probably loving this as they are getting more publicity. But lets get real. Even if Brennan qualified her report with the statement above, it wouldn't change anything. People tend to assume the worst. On-line trolls bask in someone else's misery. A qualifying statement wouldn't change human nature. I have children and I really worry about the world we live in. It's very unkind.

 

[Vera Costa]

This might help some.

The Legal Difference Between Sexual Misconduct, Harassment, and Assault Explained

 

[LarrySK8]

Any word from either of his former partners, their parents or the sister of the former partner who is going to Nationals?

 

[Perky Shae Lynn]

Any word from either of his former partners, their parents or the sister of the former partner who is going to Nationals?

I would be shocked if any of those spoke up through social media or official statements. If they have something bad to say, they are likely cooperating with investigation, and not in a position a position to make public statements. If they have something nice to say, they will be attacked.

 

[Rob]

I would be shocked if any of those spoke up through social media or official statements. If they have something bad to say, they are likely cooperating with investigation, and not in a position a position to make public statements. If they have something nice to say, they will be attacked.

https://radaronline.com/exclusives/...lin-suicide-partner-caydee-denney-devastated/
The mother apparently has spoken to Radar.

 

[Jeanine]

Any word from either of his former partners, their parents or the sister of the former partner who is going to Nationals?

Haven Denney on instagram - https://www.instagram.com/p/Bs3FPHmnhdt/

 

[Prancer]

The alternative would be for Leese and Brennan to QUALIFY their reporting by saying, "the details of the misconduct are not known. Conclusions can not be based on the fact that an investigation is underway on misconduct."

So state the obvious?

The idea he could have lost everything and killed himself over possibly telling a dirty joke is horrifying.

And also incredibly unlikely, whether the accusations are true or not.

 

[overedge]

https://radaronline.com/exclusives/...lin-suicide-partner-caydee-denney-devastated/
The mother apparently has spoken to Radar.

It sounds like Radar caught her off guard and she either told them to go away or hung up on them.

 

[Perky Shae Lynn]

delete

never mind, what I think is not going to make any difference anyway.

 

[AxelAnnie]

christine brennan and TSL did not want him crucified by his peers. that is a ridiculous statement. what possible reason???? you are simply wrong. the blame i think rather lies with safe sport and how they have chosen to release information before they have investigated and made a final decision. the saying ' a little knowledge is a dangerous thing' can apply here. better to investigate and then tell all. they need to seriously re evaluate how they are operating. with social media the consequences can be dire.

I totally agree.

I tried to listen to the podcast between Dave and Christine Brennen. Made me sick.
Ms. Brennen is incorrect that the information on SafeSport (and about John specifically) is public record so she was totally justified to publicize it. That simply cannot be true. I can see past decisions - decisions that have been investigated and adjudicated. Allegations are not public. And they should not be. And to publicly flog the guy with no investigation is simply not right. It is authority run wild IMO.

 

[suef]

What in the world is going on here? This appears to be a screenshot of remarks of Polina Edmond's mother, asking for the names of the accuser(s) to be publicly outed? (edited for clarity)

https://twitter.com/yang_bo_dudnik/status/1087405508951068677

 

[overedge]

I totally agree.

I tried to listen to the podcast between Dave and Christine Brennen. Made me sick.
Ms. Brennen is incorrect that the information on SafeSport (and about John specifically) is public record so she was totally justified to publicize it. That simply cannot be true.

The SafeSport website states that two suspensions were issued (plus the date when the most recent was issued) and that the charge is allegations of misconduct. SafeSport also has documents on its website describing the process of filing a complaint and how a complaint is investigated. All of that is publicly available. Go and look for yourself.

 

[Prancer]

Ms. Brennen is incorrect that the information on SafeSport (and about John specifically) is public record so she was totally justified to publicize it. That simply cannot be true.

Afraid that it is. You might not like it, but it is. Allegations are made public all the time--although in this case, the allegations haven't been made public, just that the fact that there are allegations.

I am not sure why people are so unaware of this. Do none of you read the news?

And to publicly flog the guy with no investigation is simply not right. It is authority run wild IMO.

There was an investigation, which led to further allegations, which led to an escalation of status while more investigation took place.

I can see arguing both for and against making investigations public in such cases, but I don't at all understand people thinking that what unfolded here in terms of public reports is somehow unusual or pointedly malicious.

Some examples:

https://www.the-scientist.com/news-...der-investigation-for-sexual-misconduct-65162
http://www.fox8live.com/2018/12/13/...n-under-investigation-sexually-abusing-teens/
https://www.latimes.com/politics/es...atic-party-chairman-1543170712-htmlstory.html
https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2...edly-investigation-allegations-sexual-assault
https://www.thisisinsider.com/r-kelly-sexual-abuse-and-child-porn-allegation-2019-1
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/11/15/us/dartmouth-professors-sexual-harassment.html

 

[puglover]

I believe you are giving it more than 35% now Prancer. Thanks for keeping us on track.

 

[skatfan]

Tabloids don't care about who they hurt. Someone else's tragedy is click-bait to Brennan and Leese. They are probably loving this as they are getting more publicity. But lets get real. Even if Brennan qualified her report with the statement above, it wouldn't change anything. People tend to assume the worst. On-line trolls bask in someone else's misery. A qualifying statement wouldn't change human nature. I have children and I really worry about the world we live in. It's very unkind.

Christine Brennan does not work for a tabloid - she works for USA Today, which has a number of excellent sports reporters. Brennan does not write, nor would her editors publish, unsubstantiated reports. She did excellent work on the gymnastics abuse scandals, and her columns have brought withering gazes onto the USA Gymnastics federation to the point that they fired a new CEO. US Figure Skating is hopefully aware that she does not suffer fools.

As to the world being unkind, it is very unkind for vulnerable populations to be put at risk when allegations of misconduct are made. Sports federations have shown how badly they have fumbled this kind of stuff to the point that Safe Sport was created and now conducts these kinds of investigations, and the public has demanded that credible allegations against folks get listed online as a result.

The tragedy of John Coughlin's death will certainly require some consideration, but we do not know the full story of his death - did he tend to depression, were there previous suicidal thoughts/attempts, etc. Other coaches have gone through similar suspensions in other sports and come out the other end exonerated and back in coaching.

 

[Rock2]

I tried to listen to the podcast between Dave and Christine Brennen. Made me sick.
Ms. Brennen is incorrect that the information on SafeSport (and about John specifically) is public record so she was totally justified to publicize it. That simply cannot be true. I can see past decisions - decisions that have been investigated and adjudicated. Allegations are not public. And they should not be. And to publicly flog the guy with no investigation is simply not right. It is authority run wild IMO.

Very much disagree.

on your first point about public record justifies her publicizing it, I think you misunderstood her point. Her point was that this information is public (true) and was brought to her attention. The ramifications of knowing this sort of information and NOT reporting are significant, to the point of being considered journalistic malpractice. I would agree. It was kept factual with no editorial commentary on it. In fact, anything she said about John was positive.

The more important point is that allegations MUST be made public although we're dealing with a situation where we have to decide who to protect the most -- adults or victims/children. SafeSport clearly prioritizes victims and potential victims. For this reason, they publicize that there are allegations and they only do so after a preliminary investigation. This is not done frivolously. There is some rigor to the process before anything is made public.

As I said before, these investigations could take months or years. Imagine you had a child who was a minor and was taking lessons from or otherwise had even some informal interaction with a coach who was under investigation and that information was withheld from you. A year later, this coach is found guilty and you later find out your child was a victim. Tell me you wouldn't be beyond outraged for not knowing about the investigation so you could have had the option to cease further contact with the coach. Tell me you would have understood that the coach's privacy was the priority.

SafeSport has no process to know everyone who a coach has contact with so they publicize and send email blasts. The media supplements this work. The above scenario is the one that has to be avoided as the priority, even with some very troubling consequences.

 

[Rock2]

In fairness, for these sorts of things our experiences and human nature drive our reaction, and the level of objectivity:

a. How do I feel about the accused? Like/dislike/no opinion
b. How do I feel about the outlets delivering the message? Like/dislike/no opinion
c. Do I have children? Are they under the control of influential adults beyond teachers for part of their day?
d. What is my history with or connection to abuse?
e. What is my history with or connection to suicide?

I think if we polled people's answers to these questions before even hearing about John, we'd likely see a correlation to the opinions expressed.

It's not a criticism. Just an observation of how the brain collaborates with our emotions.

 

[overedge]

And in this particular situation, people's experiences with being in the skating world, i.e. have they been a skater, coach, official, parent, or directly involved with skating in some other way.

 

[once_upon]

In fairness, for these sorts of things our experiences and human nature drive our reaction, and the level of objectivity:

a. How do I feel about the accused? Like/dislike/no opinion
b. How do I feel about the outlets delivering the message? Like/dislike/no opinion
c. Do I have children? Are they under the control of influential adults beyond teachers for part of their day?
d. What is my history with or connection to abuse?
e. What is my history with or connection to suicide?

I think if we polled people's answers to these questions before even hearing about John, we'd likely see a correlation to the opinions expressed.

It's not a criticism. Just an observation of how the brain collaborates with our emotions.

A. Wanting to protect
B. Make aware
C. I have grandchildren who are under 10. I would absolutely want to know about investigation occurring
D. Been a victim
E. Years ago (25 or so) had a suicide plan. Sought professional help, developed safety plan to prevent.

 

[Stephori]

There seems to be a lot of confusion as to what constitutes Sexual Misconduct:

https://definitions.uslegal.com/s/sexual-misconduct/

 

[overedge]

There seems to be a lot of confusion as to what constitutes Sexual Misconduct:

https://definitions.uslegal.com/s/sexual-misconduct/

The SafeSport definition is the relevant one, because that's the organization dealing with the complaint. I can't copy the link to it, but it's on the SafeSport website and IIRC has also been posted in this thread and in the other Coughlin thread.

 

[kosjenka]

POOR GRAMMAR on the way...
I know 3 people who committed suicide. One prominent thing they had in common. It was never simple 1+1. Their loved ones and friend found out much later the layers of problems that lead to the tragic act. All were deeply troubled or in need of (mental) help they either did not seek or didn't know they should have had

So that takes me to think John Coughlin did not take his own life exclusively because of the allegations and investigation he was facing, public opinions of people of him when those allegations became public knowledge. I do not have any exclusive knowledge of these allegations against him, or his true character. And I think this is true for pretty much everybody else, or wast majority of people sharing their opinions online regarding these pieces of news.

His life was not over for that investigation taking place, or him being made to resign from his position at MK blades ect. His life would have changed for sure, but how - now we will never know. This would have disturbed his life for sure, but a reasonable person can see there was also possibility he would have been cleared of the charges he called unfounded. Witch hunt for people spreading information that is of public record is appalling.

 

[UGG]

What in the world is going on here? This appears to be a screenshot of remarks of Polina Edmond's mother, asking for the names of the accuser(s) to be publicly outed? (edited for clarity)

https://twitter.com/yang_bo_dudnik/status/1087405508951068677

Whaaaat???

 

[Foolhardy Ham Lint]

POOR GRAMMAR on the way...
I know 3 people who committed suicide. One prominent thing they had in common. It was never simple 1+1. Their loved ones and friend found out much later the layers of problems that lead to the tragic act. All were deeply troubled or in need of (mental) help they either did not seek or didn't know they should have had

So that takes me to think John Coughlin did not take his own life exclusively because of the allegations and investigation he was facing, public opinions of people of him when those allegations became public knowledge. I do not have any exclusive knowledge of these allegations against him, or his true character. And I think this is true for pretty much everybody else, or wast majority of people sharing their opinions online regarding these pieces of news.

His life was not over for that investigation taking place, or him being made to resign from his position at MK blades ect. His life would have changed for sure, but how - now we will never know. This would have disturbed his life for sure, but a reasonable person can see there was also possibility he would have been cleared of the charges he called unfounded. Witch hunt for people spreading information that is of public record is appalling.

It has been a decade since a close friend of mine took their life. I only learned of their deep despair afterwards, as they always put on a happy face for me.

I remember when I broke up with a partner, how horrified I was that acquaintances saw fit to use my relationship as fodder within their social circle.

I can't even begin to imagine how much more amplified a stressful personal situation would become, played out on social media for everyone to consume.

 

[Foolhardy Ham Lint]

I tried to listen to the podcast between Dave and Christine Brennen. Made me sick. .

Brennan has built her career on exploiting other people's personal tragedies.

They deserve each other.