ISU Transgender Policy

[Aussie Willy]

I don't recall seeing this posted on FSU previously. But as I was updating a website, I found that the ISU does indeed have a policy to cover transgender skaters.

https://isu.org/inside-isu/isu-communications/communications/26066-isu-communication-2422/file

After all the debate going on in countries about this topic, it is good the ISU have established guidelines for this.

 

[MacMadame]

I'm glad they have a policy and for the most part it seems reasonable but I think this:

The Skater must demonstrate that her total testosterone level in serum has been below 5 nmol/L continuously for at least 12 months prior to her first competition

Is too strict. There are cis women who can't meet that criteria.

Also, they need to add something about intersexed athletes since their biological sex is mixed.

 

[Trillian]

I'm glad they have a policy and for the most part it seems reasonable but I think this:

The Skater must demonstrate that her total testosterone level in serum has been below 5 nmol/L continuously for at least 12 months prior to her first competition

Is too strict. There are cis women who can't meet that criteria.

Agree.

Also, they need to add something about intersexed athletes since their biological sex is mixed.

I agree with this also, but I wouldn’t suggest including guidelines for intersex athletes in a policy with “Transgender” in the title since they are two very different things. I would prefer they either broaden the scope of the policy or create a separate one. There are many, many different medical diagnoses that technically fall under the intersex umbrella, so any guidelines for intersex athletes would need to take a lot of potential variations into account.

(ETA: and of course a person can be both trans and intersex - that’s just not necessarily the case.)

 

[barbk]

I'm glad they have a policy and for the most part it seems reasonable but I think this:

The Skater must demonstrate that her total testosterone level in serum has been below 5 nmol/L continuously for at least 12 months prior to her first competition

Is too strict. There are cis women who can't meet that criteria.

Also, they need to add something about intersexed athletes since their biological sex is mixed.

I don't know what the correct total testosterone level should be, but they should not be using words like "continuously" in a policy doc like this. There are continuous glucose monitors, but I've never heard of a continuous testosterone monitor. If they mean monthly tests, they should say that. The policy seems to be silent on routine testosterone testing after 12 months in normal circumstances. Does that open the door to an athlete boosting testosterone down the line? Perhaps that is caught through the regular testing process?

 

[Trillian]

I don't know what the correct total testosterone level should be, but they should not be using words like "continuously" in a policy doc like this. There are continuous glucose monitors, but I've never heard of a continuous testosterone monitor. If they mean monthly tests, they should say that.

Good point, there really needs to be more clarity for a practical application of this policy.

Or they could just… let trans women compete as women. On a practical level, the way figure skating is scored, I don’t see how trans women would ever have any kind of significant competitive “advantage.” But for a sport that’s pretty invested in upholding a gender binary, I wouldn’t expect that idea to fly.

 

[aka_gerbil]

Or they could just… let trans women compete as women. On a practical level, the way figure skating is scored, I don’t see how trans women would ever have any kind of significant competitive “advantage.” But for a sport that’s pretty invested in upholding a gender binary, I wouldn’t expect that idea to fly.

Jumps and would there still be an advantage allowing quads to be performed more easier, especially if the skater went through male puberty before transitioning?

 

[Trillian]

Jumps and would there still be an advantage allowing quads to be performed more easier, especially if the skater went through male puberty before transitioning?

There are very few skaters in the world who can land quads in the first place, so statistically, I wouldn’t expect a lot of them to be transgender. If it happens every great once in a while, it’s not the end of the world. Frankly, Russia drugging children is a greater potential threat to the integrity of women’s athletic competition than trans women.

 

[MacMadame]

I don't know what the correct total testosterone level should be, but they should not be using words like "continuously" in a policy doc like this. There are continuous glucose monitors, but I've never heard of a continuous testosterone monitor. If they mean monthly tests, they should say that. The policy seems to be silent on routine testosterone testing after 12 months in normal circumstances. Does that open the door to an athlete boosting testosterone down the line? Perhaps that is caught through the regular testing process?

I don't know what they mean by continuously but I assume it means regular testing.

After 12 months, it says they can test and it will be decided on a case-by-case basis. So some people will get tested and some won't. I guess that's okay but it could be misused.

It also specifically says that the normal drug testing they do can also test for testosterone so boosting testosterone down the line should be caught.

Jumps and would there still be an advantage allowing quads to be performed more easier, especially if the skater went through male puberty before transitioning?

Meh. Once you are on HRT for a while, you will lose a lot of your muscles and bone density. If there is slightly enough left to be slightly stronger than biological females, then I agree with @Trillian.

ETA that depending on how "passing" a transgender athlete is, some transgender women will have a disadvantage because they skate less "pretty"/"feminine" compared to most cis women and those transgender women who can pass as cis. This shouldn't be true but skating is pretty gendered still.

 

[barbk]

I don't know what they mean by continuously but I assume it means regular testing.

And that's the problem with a word like "continuously" - perfectly reasonable people can make very different assumptions about what continuous or regular means in this context. Much better to set a standard that is clear and measurable.

 

[Trillian]

ETA that depending on how "passing" a transgender athlete is, some transgender women will have a disadvantage because they skate less "pretty"/"feminine" compared to most cis women and those transgender women who can pass as cis. This shouldn't be true but skating is pretty gendered still.

That would be the perception, and exactly why I don’t think trans women would have a realistic competitive advantage. And while I’m not an expert in human biology, I would guess that if going through “male puberty” really did provide an advantage in terms of the jumps, it would probably also lead to a disadvantage in things like extreme flexibility that are also prized more in women’s skating.

The idea that a bunch of men will pretend to be trans women in order to win sportsball games is ridiculous in society at large, but it’s an even dumber thing to worry about in a sport like figure skating.

 

[aka_gerbil]

I was thinking not so much about muscle strength and bone density but hip and pelvic bone structure when it comes to quads. If hrt is started before or early in puberty, the child ends up with the structure for their chosen gender. If it’s mid to late puberty, the child ends up with the hip/pelvic bone structure of the pre-transition gender. One of the things that makes quads easier for the men is hip/pelvic structure—and it’s why we see the young girls lose quads after puberty.

Development of Hip Bone Geometry During Gender-Affirming Hormone Therapy in Transgender Adolescents Resembles That of the Experienced Gender When Pubertal Suspension Is Started in Early Puberty - PubMed

Bone geometry can be described in terms of periosteal and endocortical growth and is partly determined by sex steroids. Periosteal and endocortical apposition are thought to be regulated by testosterone and estrogen, respectively. Gender-affirming hormone (GAH) treatment with sex steroids in...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

And quads get more points than flexibility in women’s skating too.

 

[caseyedwards]

Low testosterone doesn’t turn a man into woman. High testosterone doesn’t turn a woman into man. There has been development. Puberty is irreversible! Once a man is a man there is no turning back. The muscles the bone the whole body structure can’t be changed. It should just never be allowed - men in womens or womens in men.

 

[Orm Irian]

Jumps and would there still be an advantage allowing quads to be performed more easier, especially if the skater went through male puberty before transitioning?

Not really. While I doubt that medically transitioning would change a skater's proportion of fast-twitch muscle, which is definitely useful for jumping, I've seen many trans people describe the process of medically transitioning as a second puberty, including body shape changes - and that's without even including surgical changes such as top surgery. And we all know the kinds of impact that the body shape changes of puberty can have on skaters, whether temporary or otherwise. If a trans woman could get a quad before transitioning and hold onto it through the process, or get it back after transitioning, frankly, more power to her! But it would probably be very difficult.

 

[Trillian]

Low testosterone doesn’t turn a man into woman. High testosterone doesn’t turn a woman into man.

You’re right - a person’s gender identity is totally separate from the physical characteristics that are used to categorize people on the spectrum of biological sex. Thanks for this super helpful contribution!

 

[Kateri]

Not really. While I doubt that medically transitioning would change a skater's proportion of fast-twitch muscle, which is definitely useful for jumping, I've seen many trans people describe the process of medically transitioning as a second puberty, including body shape changes - and that's without even including surgical changes such as top surgery. And we all know the kinds of impact that the body shape changes of puberty can have on skaters, whether temporary or otherwise. If a trans woman could get a quad before transitioning and hold onto it through the process, or get it back after transitioning, frankly, more power to her! But it would probably be very difficult.

Yes, and bear in mind that once testosterone has stopped, and the associated muscle mass has been lost, then having larger bones is an active disadvantage in many sports, especially something like figure skating. All the weight, and none of the strength to get it off the ground!

 

[MacMadame]

One of the things that makes quads easier for the men is hip/pelvic structure—and it’s why we see the young girls lose quads after puberty.

But they also get boobs. Which transgender women who get top surgery will also get. They also gain weight because women tend to have more body fat than men after puberty. HRT should also do that to transgender women.

 

[aka_gerbil]

If a trans female skater were getting top surgery, might the choice be made to wait or to go for a small cup size while competing because of the effect on jumping? I know trans woman typically put on more fat, but what does that look like in an elite level athlete who is burning who knows how many calories a day? There are zero currently competing skaters I’ve seen in person who aren’t very lean with no fat on them.

 

[morqet]

Lowering T levels doesn't fully reverse the effects of male puberty. An article from Professor Ross Tucker: (paywalled here https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/...lusion-comes-at-expense-of-fairness-t6pf3sz6z but key paragraph below)

In 13 longitudinal studies tracking trans women who undergo testosterone suppression for more than a year, measures such as total mass, bone density, muscle mass and muscle strength are either unchanged, or removed by only a fraction of the initial male vs female advantage. For instance, where an initial difference in muscle strength was 50 per cent, testosterone suppression reduced strength by between 0 and 10 per cent.

He's a sports scientist who works with World Rugby on player safety & was involved in the creation of their transgender guidelines and has worked with both the IAAF and Caster Semenya on gathering appropriate and robust evidence on hyperandrogenism & performance in athletes. He's been very candid about how his opinion on what is fair and inclusive has changed as he's learned more from the data - it is not as simple as just reducing T levels to remove all advantage gained from being a natal male.

Obviously the things that are a benefit in skating are going to be very different in skating than they are in a sport like rugby, but muscle strength for example is going to give some advantage. And I guess it's a different case again for a male to female transgender athlete who never went through puberty and transitioned at an early age? It's a very difficult balancing act for all sporting governing bodies.

 

[Kateri]

Honestly, I don't know all that many trans women who get breast implants these days. Get your hormone levels right, and you grow your own like anyone else.

 

[caseyedwards]

You’re right - a person’s gender identity is totally separate from the physical characteristics that are used to categorize people on the spectrum of biological sex. Thanks for this super helpful contribution!

You’re welcome. Because the topic is sports if does need to be said. Sports was divided into mens and women not for fun But for BIOLOGY

 

[MacMadame]

If a trans female skater were getting top surgery, might the choice be made to wait or to go for a small cup size while competing because of the effect on jumping? I know trans woman typically put on more fat, but what does that look like in an elite level athlete who is burning who knows how many calories a day? There are zero currently competing skaters I’ve seen in person who aren’t very lean with no fat on them.

That's right, some 20-year-old recreational skater is going to choose their breast size based on doing well in some skating comps as an adult skater.

I really don't understand your point, tbh. Only adults can transition medically. And it takes years and it's expensive and hard (I could write paragraphs and paragraphs about all the obstacles that trans people face trying to medically transition.)

So what you'd have to have is some kid who skates in the boy's division long enough to get quads, then when they are 18, they start the transition process, which takes years, and involves the kind of body changes that cause skaters to lose their jumps, and then finally they will be able to skate in the Woman's division. Assuming they can even get their testosterone low enough.

I don't see this as a path to winning the World Championships. Or even just getting on the podium at Nationals. It's for adults who want to continue to skate because they love it but once they are fully transitioned to a woman, they want to skate with the other women.

And, in the end, what does it matter? Every person has physical characteristics that give them both advantages and disadvantages in particular sports. A lot of male-to-female transgender people are taller than the average woman, for example. Being tall makes jumping harder. So maybe they have some advantages but they also have disadvantages. But so do cis women. It balances out.

Honestly, I don't know all that many trans women who get breast implants these days. Get your hormone levels right, and you grow your own like anyone else.

That's kind of cool!

 

[Trillian]

You’re welcome. Because the topic is sports if does need to be said. Sports was divided into mens and women not for fun But for BIOLOGY

I doubt “BIOLOGY” cares how we define competitive categories in sporting events, since “BIOLOGY” is an academic discipline and not a sentient being. Gender identity and biological sex are two different things, but since neither of them is binary, neither can be used to neatly divide athletes into two categories. Guess we’re just going to have to do the best we can to make the categories fair and inclusive for everyone who wants to participate. I’m sure “BIOLOGY” will understand.

 

[bladesofgorey]

If a trans female skater were getting top surgery, might the choice be made to wait or to go for a small cup size while competing because of the effect on jumping? I know trans woman typically put on more fat, but what does that look like in an elite level athlete who is burning who knows how many calories a day? There are zero currently competing skaters I’ve seen in person who aren’t very lean with no fat on them.

This is like a really weird thing to get hung up on. In extreme cases I've known women who had breast reduction surgery because they were well-endowed and it made the sport they trained in more difficult (performance wasn't the main thing but comfort -for example running was uncomfortable for them with the jostling motion all the time). Should those women have not been allowed to compete for prize money or national spots?

 

[aka_gerbil]

That's right, some 20-year-old recreational skater is going to choose their breast size based on doing well in some skating comps as an adult skater.

I really don't understand your point

Discussing hypotheticals. It is unlikely we’d see a skater in the midst of medical transition also pursuing an elite international skating career, but this is the thread for the ISU policy (so elite international going to worlds kind of level and not adult skating).

You were also the one who first brought up transgender women getting breasts via top surgery:

But they also get boobs. Which transgender women who get top surgery will also get. They also gain weight because women tend to have more body fat than men after puberty. HRT should also do that to transgender women.

Thus my response that someone at high level (because this thread is about ISU policy) who was transitioning wouldn’t choose to have large implants or implants at all while competing. Also, given that most female skaters are pretty flat chested because of very low body fat, a hypothetical elite level skater on HRT would likely also be flat chested because of lack of body fat.

The reason it matters to me is that Title 9 exists for a reason as does the separation of most sports into mens and womens categories. It was about giving biological women a fair field of play in sport due to having less physical strength than biological men. I think that fair field of play is an important thing to protect.

For me, the question is: how do we fairly include intersex and transgender athletes at all levels of athletic competition while we ensure we are still providing a fair field of play for people born biologically female. As a scientist, I think that means doing some studies and actually figure out if there are still physical characteristics that would allow an unfair competitive advantage post transition over a biological female. I suspect it depends on the individual sport and/or when hormonal transition began.

I think of two things as a starting point: pre-puberty, girls run just as fast as boys, if not faster. After puberty, when equally trained, the girls can’t keep up with the same boys they could equal or beat before puberty. The other was the mixed team relay swimming event in the Olympics. Not all countries had the same sex go in for the first leg/same stroke. All Olympic level athletes, but the men were comically ahead sometimes half the pool.

I know asking these questions makes people feel uncomfortable when we want so much to be inclusive. Sports is a physical endeavor though, competed with physical bodies. Undergoing male puberty with testosterone does some things that cannot be undone by surgery and/or HRT.

 

[genevieve]

It's really icky to be discussing what size breasts a hypothetical MTF trans skater might have.

 

[Trillian]

The reason it matters to me is that Title 9 exists for a reason as does the separation of most sports into mens and womens categories. It was about giving biological women a fair field of play in sport due to having less physical strength than biological men. I think that fair field of play is an important thing to protect.

For me, the question is: how do we fairly include intersex and transgender athletes at all levels of athletic competition while we ensure we are still providing a fair field of play for people born biologically female.

I agree about the fair field of play and I think you make some good points. One thing I would point out, though, is that trans women are not the reason Title 9 exists - the marginalization of women’s sports by mostly cis men was the problem.

Trans and intersex women are women, and need to be included in the conversation about how we protect the rights of all women in competitive sports. It’s not an “us vs. them” situation. Because of that, any policies or restrictions on the participation of women in women’s sports should be made only if there’s compelling evidence that they are necessary to maintain a fair playing field. If we really want to protect women, we err on the side of being as inclusive as possible to all women.

 

[bladesofgorey]

The reason it matters to me is that Title 9 exists for a reason as does the separation of most sports into mens and womens categories. It was about giving biological women a fair field of play in sport due to having less physical strength than biological men.

That is not what Title 9 was or is about.
edited to add I am linking official Title IX information here since people often
seem to be confused about what it states:
.

please pay special attention to this passage:
A recipient institution that receives Department funds must operate its education program or activity in a nondiscriminatory manner free of discrimination based on sex, including sexual orientation and gender identity. Some key issue areas in which recipients have Title IX obligations are: recruitment, admissions, and counseling; financial assistance; athletics; sex-based harassment, which encompasses sexual assault and other forms of sexual violence; treatment of pregnant and parenting students; treatment of LGBTQI+ students; discipline; single-sex education; and employment.

Title 9 is not about keeping women's sports separate from men's. In practice it meant for example that men-only programs like football couldn't use up all of the athletic resources and opportunities at a given institution and that similar opportunities and resources must be made available to women interested in participating in sports as well.

 

[Aussie Willy]

We have a politician in Australia who has introduced a bill that means sports cannot deny women's only sporting divisions. So it means that transgender people cannot participate in women's sports.

Interestingly none of the major sports here were consulted. In fact they are all moving towards inclusion.

The politician who introduced this has not named any organisation, provided any examples or outlined any cases where sports were forced to accept a transgender woman into their sport. She has been quite deliberately vague and misleading. Unfortunately those who complain about political correctness and that they are "cancelled" if they express a transphobic view latch onto this with quite rabid delight as an example to show they are fighting against the "woke left". Listening to interviews about this on some TV programs has been quite disgusting.

 

[aka_gerbil]

It's really icky to be discussing what size breasts a hypothetical MTF trans skater might have.

How many times have we discussed the puberty monster in relation to young women developing and sometimes ending up with breasts, hips, etc that negatively impacted ability to jump?

I was not the first to bring this up. It was brought up after I brought up quads and hip/pelvic structure.

That is not what Title 9 was or is about.
edited to add I am linking official Title IX information here since people often
seem to be confused about what it states:

The Obama administration interpreted it to include gender identity etc. The original intent in 1972 was to bar sex discrimination.

From the original:

REGULATIONS; NATURE OF PARTICULAR SPORTS: INTERCOLLEGIATE ATHLETIC ACTIVITIES
Pub. L. 93-380, title VIII, Sec. 844, Aug. 21, 1974, 88 Stat. 612, provided that the Secretary prepare and publish, not more than 30 days after Aug. 21, 1974, proposed regulations implementing the provisions of this chapter regarding prohibition of sex discrimination in federally assisted programs, including reasonable regulations for intercollegiate athletic activities considering the nature of the particular sports.

Title Ix Of The Education Amendments Of 1972

www.justice.gov

There are no references to gender identity in this.

What I think will eventually happen is that there will be a case involving high school or collegiate athletics that ends up before the Supreme Court.

I still think let’s do some scientific studies, figure out if having gone through male puberty in the presence of testosterone does confer physical advantages in particular sports over natal female athletes, and then figure out how to include everyone fairly without harming the right of everyone to have a fair field of play.

 

[genevieve]

How many times have we discussed the puberty monster in relation to young women developing and sometimes ending up with breasts, hips, etc that negatively impacted ability to jump?

That is not the same as discussing trans bodies and choices being made in transition. It's uncomfortably close to discussing decisions that trans folks make about genitals. AKA very 'othering' and no one's business.

And I didn't call out anyone specific. I just find the whole topic shifty.