ISU Transgender Policy

I still think let’s do some scientific studies, figure out if having gone through male puberty in the presence of testosterone does confer physical advantages in particular sports over natal female athletes, and then figure out how to include everyone fairly without harming the right of everyone to have a fair field of play.

I think we include all women in women’s sports, and if people think there should be restrictions or that particular women should be excluded in the name of fair play, they are welcome to try and prove it.

I also think that anyone who really cares about protecting women’s sports would do a lot more good by focusing on the real problems like unequal pay and facilities, sexist media coverage, state-sponsored doping programs, etc., rather than the make-believe “problem” of trans women.
 
As a scientist, I think that means doing some studies and actually figure out if there are still physical characteristics that would allow an unfair competitive advantage post transition over a biological female. I suspect it depends on the individual sport and/or when hormonal transition began.
There have been studies. They are mixed in their results. It's not like the higher your testosterone is, the better you do, for example. In some studies, they didn't find any benefit. In others, they did but it was slight. Sometimes it wasn't slight. It's just very mixed. Probably because success in sports is complicated. Also, there are so few transgender people that it's hard to have valid studies with a large enough population to have valid results.

For me, I don't really care if trans women have an advantage in one aspect of my sport. Sports are inherently unfair. We try to make them fair by dividing them in different ways. But there is an arbitrary aspect to these categories so these divisions aren't perfect. I've certainly had experiences where I beat someone in another category but they got on the podium in their category and I did not. Or had to compete with people who had an enormous advantage over me but were in my category.

In the end, there just aren't enough transgender women let alone ones who do sports let alone ones who do my sport for me to care that much. If some 65 to 69-year-old transgender woman shows up at my triathlon races and starts beating me all the time, how do I even know it's because she's transgender? Or just faster than me like all the other cis women who beat me? Don't know. Don't care.
 
I understand what you’re saying, @genevieve.

But I’d also argue it’s shifty/creepy for people on a message board to be discussing what puberty did to someone’s body.

I also think that anyone who really cares about protecting women’s sports would do a lot more good by focusing on the real problems like unequal pay and facilities, sexist media coverage, state-sponsored doping programs, etc., rather than the make-believe “problem” of trans women.
All of those things you list do need to be dealt with. You and I do not see this the same, but the question of does having undergone male puberty confer a physical competitive advantage might not seem to be a make believe problem to a natal female who misses out on a scholarship or national title or Olympic berth. Like I said, this will eventually be an issue that ends up in front of the Supreme Court in the US, and I think we do need to do some actual studies to actually get some real data.

Speaking of data, to go back to the question of testosterone levels, almost all natal females and 94 % of trans women have levels around 2 nmol/L. It is very rare you’ll find either a natal woman or trans woman this would be an issue for.
 
I think we include all women in women’s sports, and if people think there should be restrictions or that particular women should be excluded in the name of fair play, they are welcome to try and prove it.

I also think that anyone who really cares about protecting women’s sports would do a lot more good by focusing on the real problems like unequal pay and facilities, sexist media coverage, state-sponsored doping programs, etc., rather than the make-believe “problem” of trans women.
Absolutely. There are too many other problems in sports that need addressing before this one.

As someone said to me why should trans people get up in arms when they are small percentage of the population. Well how about if they are such a small percentage stop manufacturing issues as if they are the problem.
 
All of those things you list do need to be dealt with. You and I do not see this the same, but the question of does having undergone male puberty confer a physical competitive advantage might not seem to be a make believe problem to a natal female who misses out on a scholarship or national title or Olympic berth. Like I said, this will eventually be an issue that ends up in front of the Supreme Court in the US, and I think we do need to do some actual studies to actually get some real data.
So name someone who lost a scholarship because a trans woman got one. As for the Olympics, trans people have been allowed in the Olympics since 2004 and not a single one was good enough to even make the Olympic team until 2021 in Tokyo. And the only one who medaled was a soccer player on a very good team that would have won even if that athlete hadn't competed. The trans athletes in Tokyo had the support of their fellow athletes, btw. If they are okay with it, why are people trying to "protect" them from some "unfairness" that they don't see themselves?

Trans women are real women and so if they get a scholarship or earn an Olympic berth, they earned it and they didn't steal it from a cis woman who somehow deserved it more because they are cis.

Not to mention instead of saying "we have to study this more" why don't you do a search of the literature and read the studies that already exist since you say your interest is because you are a scientist.
 
So name someone who lost a scholarship because a trans woman got one.
Off the top of my head, there is this oft-cited case, but I the claim was only that finishing behind the trans female runners may have impacted getting a scholarship not that it actually did.


Not to mention instead of saying "we have to study this more" why don't you do a search of the literature and read the studies that already exist since you say your interest is because you are a scientist.
I didn’t say that no studies have been done, but as this article on the Deutsche Welle website points out, there have not been many and none in elite level athletes (that’s why we need to do some studies in trans athletes, although I do acknowledge getting the numbers of participants will be hard) :


Though it’s not an academic review, they do link to some more recent studies that are available through pubmed. The consensus is there are physical advantages, but to what extent they impact fair sport is yet to be determined. The last point in the article is we need better data to make better policy. The people trying to study this say we need more studies. They don’t think there should be a blanket ban. I don’t think there should be a blanket ban. We do need some better answers to figure out better how this should be handled.
 
Off the top of my head, there is this oft-cited case, but I the claim was only that finishing behind the trans female runners may have impacted getting a scholarship not that it actually did.
I remember that case. I was unimpressed with the arguments to exclude transgender girls. For one thing, most of the people arguing against the trans girls were using coded language and dog whistles.

For another, colleges recruiters for track and field teams will look at the girls' times, not their placements. If that girl only came in 8th in that one meet, there are 6 other cis girls who beat her. But she blames her lack of scholarships (assuming she doesn't get them) on the trans girl. I'm sorry, but that's ridiculous.

I didn’t say that no studies have been done, but as this article on the Deutsche Welle website points out, there have not been many and none in elite level athletes
Because there aren't many. This is why I think there are so much better things to be spending time and money on rather than the 2-4 transgender girls in a country of 330 million people that are good enough at sports to win all of the time.
 
As for the Olympics, trans people have been allowed in the Olympics since 2004 and not a single one was good enough to even make the Olympic team until 2021 in Tokyo. And the only one who medaled was a soccer player on a very good team that would have won even if that athlete hadn't competed.

In the context of this discussion, it's worth noting that the athlete in question (Quinn) was AFAB and playing on a women's team. They identify as trans and non-binary (some NB individuals identify as trans; some don't) and haven't undergone any hormone suppression or replacement. There are certainly plenty of bigots who object to NB athletes such as Timothy and Quinn competing as the sex they were assigned at birth, but most of the discussions around policies for trans athletes involve trans women who were AMAB and went through male puberty and are now on hormone treatments.
 
In the context of this discussion, it's worth noting that the athlete in question (Quinn) was AFAB and playing on a women's team. They identify as trans and non-binary (some NB individuals identify as trans; some don't) and haven't undergone any hormone suppression or replacement. There are certainly plenty of bigots who object to NB athletes such as Timothy and Quinn competing as the sex they were assigned at birth, but most of the discussions around policies for trans athletes involve trans women who were AMAB and went through male puberty and are now on hormone treatments.
This is true and yet another reason why I don't think it really counts as part of the "men are pretending to be women so they can win stuff!" argument that a lot of bigots make. I included this example to be "fair." :D


I forgot to mention this before, but as for the argument that athletes are lean so trans women aren't going to put on fat and get hips and busts when they are on HRT, it's true athletes are lean. But female athletes still have higher percentages of body fat than male athletes. The men are in the 4-6% range a lot of the time while the women are in the 10-12% range. That's a big difference.
 
I find it difficult that an athlete would want to transition JUST to excel in a sport in or think they can succeed/win titles if they were not transgender. In addition the percentage of population is 0.06% identify as transgender (of the US population). Less than 1.0% of the US population are elite athletes.

According to some NCAA, less than 1% of elite athletes identify transgender.

I'm not sure how many of those elite athletes are even competing at a world level.

I think the whole issue, in ANY sport, that transgendered females have an unfair advantage is so unbelievably miniscle, I can't believe people are spending time on this issue.
 
I find it difficult that an athlete would want to transition JUST to excel in a sport in or think they can succeed/win titles if they were not transgender. In addition the percentage of population is 0.06% identify as transgender (of the US population). Less than 1.0% of the US population are elite athletes.

According to some NCAA, less than 1% of elite athletes identify transgender.

I'm not sure how many of those elite athletes are even competing at a world level.

I think the whole issue, in ANY sport, that transgendered females have an unfair advantage is so unbelievably miniscle, I can't believe people are spending time on this issue.
Unfortunately we spend time on the issue because there are people out there who won't let sleeping dogs lie. They have to keep these issues alive because their bigoted opinions are increasingly becoming irrelevant to the majority.

As for trans women being part of women's teams, they usually do because it is a safe space. Look at boys who do figure skating. They get absolutely ragged on about being gay or feminine they end up giving up. Yet boys who do figure skating fit in really well to the culture of skating because there are so many women. It is safe space for them.
 
Unfortunately we spend time on the issue because there are people out there who won't let sleeping dogs lie. They have to keep these issues alive because their bigoted opinions are increasingly becoming irrelevant to the majority
Oh I know - I wasn't necessarily referring to this thread.
 
I find it difficult that an athlete would want to transition JUST to excel in a sport in or think they can succeed/win titles if they were not transgender.

I mean, on one hand they’ll face widespread discrimination, health care disparities, greatly increased risk of assault, etc. - but on the other hand, scientific research that doesn’t actually exist indicates that they may be able to win a few extra trophies in the highly lucrative field of women’s sports. Clearly this is a threat we cannot ignore.
 
I mean, on one hand they’ll face widespread discrimination, health care disparities, greatly increased risk of assault, etc. - but on the other hand, scientific research that doesn’t actually exist indicates that they may be able to win a few extra trophies in the highly lucrative field of women’s sports. Clearly this is a threat we cannot ignore.
I realize transgendered face all that my cousin's transgendered daughter is facing those issues as she is reaching age that hormone therapy should be started.
 
I realize transgendered face all that my cousin's transgendered daughter is facing those issues as she is reaching age that hormone therapy should be started.

I was agreeing with you that it’s ridiculous to worry about people transitioning just to succeed in sports - sorry if it didn’t come across that way.

Hopefully anyone who is familiar with the challenges trans people face in their daily lives, pretty much everywhere in the world, would understand that no one is going to “pretend” to be trans for the sake of sports.
 
I remember that case. I was unimpressed with the arguments to exclude transgender girls. For one thing, most of the people arguing against the trans girls were using coded language and dog whistles.

For another, colleges recruiters for track and field teams will look at the girls' times, not their placements. If that girl only came in 8th in that one meet, there are 6 other cis girls who beat her. But she blames her lack of scholarships (assuming she doesn't get them) on the trans girl. I'm sorry, but that's ridiculous.


Because there aren't many. This is why I think there are so much better things to be spending time and money on rather than the 2-4 transgender girls in a country of 330 million people that are good enough at sports to win all of the time.

See the new science about the proof that those born male and go through male puberty retain many physical advantages over those who are born female, even after transitioning. Lowering testosterone for a period of year does very, very little to lower the male physical advantage over female. While the discrimination against those who are transgender is abhorrent, I don't know that including transgender women in women's sports is fair, either. Sports are separated by sex, not gender. See what is happening with Lia Thomas in swimming. She went from being ranked 430+ in the men's field to being ranked number 1 in the women's field. She is about to complete at nationals, where it is likely records held by the likes of Missy Franklin and Katie Ledecky will fall to Lia. Is this really right? It is does not seem like a just or level playing field for women to me.
 

See the new science about the proof that those born male and go through male puberty retain many physical advantages over those who are born female, even after transitioning. Lowering testosterone for a period of year does very, very little to lower the male physical advantage over female. While the discrimination against those who are transgender is abhorrent, I don't know that including transgender women in women's sports is fair, either. Sports are separated by sex, not gender. See what is happening with Lia Thomas in swimming. She went from being ranked 430+ in the men's field to being ranked number 1 in the women's field. She is about to complete at nationals, where it is likely records held by the likes of Missy Franklin and Katie Ledecky will fall to Lia. Is this really right? It is does not seem like a just or level playing field for women to me.
And this is the problem in Australia. This one swimmer is being used as a justification for the Save Women's Sport bill. The senator who has proposed it only uses this example when being interviewed. All other justifications are anecdotal. "I have had lots of people contact me" is all she has been able to say.
 
And this is the problem in Australia. This one swimmer is being used as a justification for the Save Women's Sport bill. The senator who has proposed it only uses this example when being interviewed. All other justifications are anecdotal. "I have had lots of people contact me" is all she has been able to say.
How about these cases? Is this a level playing field? Regardless of case numbers, overwhelming evidence is coming in that, especially after going through male puberty, the male physical advantages over female cannot really ever be erased. While one may identify as a woman/ girl, it does not appear that sex can really be changed. I wish there were easy answers for inclusivity for all, but it truly is really complicated. I want a just playing field for all, without discrimination, but I also want women to be able to compete in a level playing field.

 
I find it difficult that an athlete would want to transition JUST to excel in a sport in or think they can succeed/win titles if they were not transgender. In addition the percentage of population is 0.06% identify as transgender (of the US population). Less than 1.0% of the US population are elite athletes.

According to some NCAA, less than 1% of elite athletes identify transgender.

I'm not sure how many of those elite athletes are even competing at a world level.

I think the whole issue, in ANY sport, that transgendered females have an unfair advantage is so unbelievably miniscle, I can't believe people are spending time on this issue.
The recent science would say you are absolutely wrong on this assertion. Do you have a credible, medical source to back up what appears to be merely your opinion? https://www.sportsperformancebullet...ior to competing and during competition (13) .
 
It seems you missed my point

Small population of transgendered persons in the US
Small number if elite athletes - which includes all sports
 
It seems you missed my point

Small population of transgendered persons in the US
Small number if elite athletes - which includes all sports
If you are such as ally, you should know that "transgendered" is very insulting. The term is transgender. Yes, it is a small population. However, it only takes a small population to makes things very unfair for many people very quickly. Lia Thomas, for example, is one person, but MANY women are being affected by her being allowed to compete in NCAA swimming as a woman. Are you missing that point?
 
Sports are separated by sex, not gender.

This is false. We invented competitive divisions for men and women in sports when people had much less understanding of both biological sex and gender identity than we do today. We didn’t all sit down in a conference room somewhere and agree that when we said “women,” we were referring to biological traits only. In practice, the attempts to define those boundaries have always been messy and some of the previous “science” that was used has been discredited.

Biological sex isn’t binary, so it makes no sense to pretend it’s a neat and tidy way of dividing people up.

See what is happening with Lia Thomas in swimming. She went from being ranked 430+ in the men's field to being ranked number 1 in the women's field. She is about to complete at nationals, where it is likely records held by the likes of Missy Franklin and Katie Ledecky will fall to Lia. Is this really right? It is does not seem like a just or level playing field for women to me.

There’s no such thing as a level playing field in sports, or we wouldn’t bother to hand out medals. Missy Franklin and Katie Ledecky certainly have physical advantages over their competitors, but that doesn’t seem to bother anyone. Lia is a woman, so it seems to me that it wouldn’t be a fair playing field for women if she wasn’t allowed to compete. Except that when you talk about fairness for women, you’re not talking about her, because you don’t actually accept her as a woman who is just as deserving of fairness as the rest of us.
 
This is false. We invented competitive divisions for men and women in sports when people had much less understanding of both biological sex and gender identity than we do today. We didn’t all sit down in a conference room somewhere and agree that when we said “women,” we were referring to biological traits only. In practice, the attempts to define those boundaries have always been messy and some of the previous “science” that was used has been discredited.

Biological sex isn’t binary, so it makes no sense to pretend it’s a neat and tidy way of dividing people up.



There’s no such thing as a level playing field in sports, or we wouldn’t bother to hand out medals. Missy Franklin and Katie Ledecky certainly have physical advantages over their competitors, but that doesn’t seem to bother anyone. Lia is a woman, so it seems to me that it wouldn’t be a fair playing field for women if she wasn’t allowed to compete. Except that when you talk about fairness for women, you’re not talking about her, because you don’t actually accept her as a woman who is just as deserving of fairness as the rest of us.
DO NOT put words in my mouth, as I never said ANYTHING OF THE SORT!!!!! In addition, unless someone has a disorder of sex development (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5866176/), YES, there are only TWO sexes- male and female. That does not mean gender is binary, and I never said it was!
 
How about these cases? Is this a level playing field? Regardless of case numbers, overwhelming evidence is coming in that, especially after going through male puberty, the male physical advantages over female cannot really ever be erased. While one may identify as a woman/ girl, it does not appear that sex can really be changed. I wish there were easy answers for inclusivity for all, but it truly is really complicated. I want a just playing field for all, without discrimination, but I also want women to be able to compete in a level playing field.

If you read the ISU communication that I linked, it talks about testosterone levels which is a benchmark for competition.

I think if you are going to talk about level playing fields, you need to look at people of all shapes and sizes. Is it fair to have a woman who is 6ft 6in competing against a woman who is 5ft 4in? Is that a level playing field?

And then let's turn it around and come up with the hypothetical about a 6ft 6in woman competing against a trans woman who is 5ft 4in. Is that a level playing field? Who has the advantage there?

These need to be dealt with on a case by case basis. The Sex Discrimination Act in Australia already covers physical size. The proposed bill here which is an amendment to the SDA thinks it is addressing a problem that is already covered by law. The only motivation for this bill is to demonise trans people yet again.
 
See the new science about the proof
One study can't prove anything. Science has to be repeatable.

Many sports bodies have settled on being on HRT for two years and/or having testosterone levels below a certain level as the criteria for trans women to compete in woman's sports. This is based on the current science. As the science evolves, so will their policies.

The CT girls were already brought up. If you are going to convince me this is a big problem and trans girls/women are going to ruin sports for girls/women, you are going to have to bring up more than 2 track and field stars and one swimmer in the entire country of 330 million people. All that does is prove my point that it's not a big problem that requires excessive energy to solve.

This is false. We invented competitive divisions for men and women in sports when people had much less understanding of both biological sex and gender identity than we do today. We didn’t all sit down in a conference room somewhere and agree that when we said “women,” we were referring to biological traits only. In practice, the attempts to define those boundaries have always been messy and some of the previous “science” that was used has been discredited.
This is true. If you look at the history of sports, at first it was only men who played because humanity thought that women couldn't even do sports. It would wilt their delicate flower or something. Then some women started playing sports and, since there weren't women's sports, they played with the guys. People didn't like that. So they started splitting sports up. Sometimes it was so women could win sometimes. But sometimes it's because the guys didn't like being beaten by a gal. But not all sports split up. Some are co-ed to this day.

Some people say that women will never be as good at sports as men but, if you look at history and how women have closed the gap over time, maybe someday that won't be true, at least in some sports. And, in some sports, women have an advantage. In endurance running, women have an advantage because we burn fat better (and have more of it). So the women didn't use to do as well as the men but now they are beating them.

Instead of all this hand-wringing, sports organizations could say that, below a certain level in the sport, kids can play on the team that matches their gender identity no matter what. But at the higher/elite levels, they have to have been transitioned already. This is one example of a policy that would stop trans girls from setting records (which seems to be what is the most upsetting to some). If trans kids want to play sports because they love them and it gives their lives some normalcy, this policy would be fine. They can play in a recreational or lower-level league and have fun. If they want to go to the Olympics, they have to transition medically.

I'm sure there are other solutions that would work as well or better that don't involve hurting trans kids who are already hurt a lot by society. We just have to think of them.
 
If you read the ISU communication that I linked, it talks about testosterone levels which is a benchmark for competition.

I think if you are going to talk about level playing fields, you need to look at people of all shapes and sizes. Is it fair to have a woman who is 6ft 6in competing against a woman who is 5ft 4in? Is that a level playing field?

And then let's turn it around and come up with the hypothetical about a 6ft 6in woman competing against a trans woman who is 5ft 4in. Is that a level playing field? Who has the advantage there?

These need to be dealt with on a case by case basis. The Sex Discrimination Act in Australia already covers physical size. The proposed bill here which is an amendment to the SDA thinks it is addressing a problem that is already covered by law. The only motivation for this bill is to demonise trans people yet again.
The bill is not to demonize trans people! It is truly about science. There is a LOT MORE of a difference between male and female bodies than testosterone. A lot more. For instance, during puberty, the male heart grows in size. It pumps more blood, and hence more oxygen, which is why male bodies tend to have more endurance than female bodies. That advantage does NOT go away by suppressing testosterone. Body fat percentages do not change all that much. Bone structure does not change. Why is this so hard to understand? This is not opinion, it is pure science. You can both advocate for the rights of people who are trans while also advocating for fairness in female athletics.
 

Users who are viewing this thread

Back
Top
Do Not Sell My Personal Information