screech
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So it will still be the Finnstep, but will it still be "Musicals"? Will it be the exact same program as last year, or same pattern but different music?
ISU to propose expansion of Worlds fields; 2020 Worlds unlikely to be rescheduled
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MacMadame
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That part will be up to the team, I think.
I interpreted "pattern dances for 2020-21 will remain the same as last year" to mean that the theme is still Musicals. Which makes sense, IMO. The whole point of keeping the pattern the same is so that people don't have to get new programs which they probably don't want to do given how interrupted their training has been.
AxelAnnie
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I wonder what you mean by "growth of the sport". If you mean more people skating...ok I get that.
However, going to the World Championships is an honor you earn. It is not meant to be an everyone gets to participate, and everyone gets a ribbon or whatever for showing up.
IMO, growing the sport means skaters skating great, making a name for themselves, attracting a following. I think it would be a death knell to the sport if skaters who do not meet minimum standards were allowed to skate. Growth to me would include more interest by the public watching on TV or streaming which leads to revenue and more funding.
I think the GPF series has lost a lot of people. To the casual fan it is just the same people doing the same programs. One has to be a little educated in skating to watch that.
More skaters with less ability is not IMO going to help the sport, not if one is looking at quantitative
measures. Who are you opening it up to, and to what end?
If your end game is to give skaters from little-known countries a chance to skate....then have a competition for them.
Growing the sport in my mind is reaching more people who watch and support the sport. And they watch the sport for the excitement of Nathan Chen, the magic of Alissa Lui, Shen & Zhou etc., etc.
I agree with you on this point. Aside from the unequal fields, until the judging gets quantitative across the board and less subjective at each GP event we cannot trust the selection of who goes to the GPF.
Regardless of which formula someone creates or which method of drafting skaters into Grand Prix events is used, there is never going to be a perfect solution to the strength of the fields. The ISU has done a good job in having the absolute top skaters spread out into different events, but who is to say who will come into a new season with a huge improvement and who will come in underprepared or dealing with a small injury? Withdrawals can also really make the events lopsided, but it's no fault of anyone.
I get that there always seems to be one or two stacked events and then maybe one that is a little empty, but when it comes down to the Final and the actual medalists, the skaters on the podium are typically the skaters that have proven themselves throughout the series. And if there is a surprise- well, they earned it. If a skater gets a lucky bronze medal in a weak field in one of their regular-season events and is in the Final, they'd really have to step it up to again be on the podium.
The 2020 GPF was the first time the Russian ladies swept the podium. The only other time that has ever happened was 1999 with the men. I know that they are really running away with the discipline at the moment, but it's not always going to be that way (look at the Russian ladies from 2007-2009 for an example).
I just think Worlds would become infinitely more competitive and exciting just by adding three wildcard spots. That's it. And if it's not the Grand Prix Final, then maybe the medalists from the previous Worlds? IIRC the old 'three skater' rule back in the 80's or maybe even into the early 90's (when you had to be in the top 3 to get the three spots for your country) was only good if the same medal-winning skater used their spot in the next Worlds.
I get that there always seems to be one or two stacked events and then maybe one that is a little empty, but when it comes down to the Final and the actual medalists, the skaters on the podium are typically the skaters that have proven themselves throughout the series. And if there is a surprise- well, they earned it. If a skater gets a lucky bronze medal in a weak field in one of their regular-season events and is in the Final, they'd really have to step it up to again be on the podium.
The 2020 GPF was the first time the Russian ladies swept the podium. The only other time that has ever happened was 1999 with the men. I know that they are really running away with the discipline at the moment, but it's not always going to be that way (look at the Russian ladies from 2007-2009 for an example).
I just think Worlds would become infinitely more competitive and exciting just by adding three wildcard spots. That's it. And if it's not the Grand Prix Final, then maybe the medalists from the previous Worlds? IIRC the old 'three skater' rule back in the 80's or maybe even into the early 90's (when you had to be in the top 3 to get the three spots for your country) was only good if the same medal-winning skater used their spot in the next Worlds.
I'm also going to add a separate thought--
I understand that the people who are saying 'let everyone in! One entry per ISU nation minimum!' have all skaters' aspirations and best intentions in mind. Back in the late 90's and early 2000's, when the USA really didn't get much in terms of seeing skaters outside of the top 10, you have no idea how thrilled I would be to see someone aired that I hadn't ever seen or known much about. I think ALL of us can agree that, as an example, seeing Galina Maniachenko skate that amazing short program at 2000 Skate Canada was beyond exciting because she was, for us, pretty much unknown. I can give you about 10 other examples off the top of my head, too. All great moments as a hardcore fan.
But the times have changed. Nearly every single event down to the lowest-level internationals is streamed from beginning to end and accessible with a few clicks of the mouse. This isn't a case where the VCR's are set for those 10 skaters and if you miss it- you pretty much are screwed. The exposure skaters are getting now, even at the lower levels, is INFINITELY higher than what it was prior to anything in the last 10 years. They have video proof of nearly every competitive skate they've ever skated to share on social media and to help potentially gain exposure on a national level (Donovan Carrillo, Zahra Lari, etc.) and that's fantastic.
I get that Worlds is another experience to add to the list. But I simply cannot agree with anyone who believes the technical minimums should be erased and any skater, even at an extremely low level, should be granted an automatic ticket to Worlds. And because of that, there has to be some kind of minimum established.
I understand that the people who are saying 'let everyone in! One entry per ISU nation minimum!' have all skaters' aspirations and best intentions in mind. Back in the late 90's and early 2000's, when the USA really didn't get much in terms of seeing skaters outside of the top 10, you have no idea how thrilled I would be to see someone aired that I hadn't ever seen or known much about. I think ALL of us can agree that, as an example, seeing Galina Maniachenko skate that amazing short program at 2000 Skate Canada was beyond exciting because she was, for us, pretty much unknown. I can give you about 10 other examples off the top of my head, too. All great moments as a hardcore fan.
But the times have changed. Nearly every single event down to the lowest-level internationals is streamed from beginning to end and accessible with a few clicks of the mouse. This isn't a case where the VCR's are set for those 10 skaters and if you miss it- you pretty much are screwed. The exposure skaters are getting now, even at the lower levels, is INFINITELY higher than what it was prior to anything in the last 10 years. They have video proof of nearly every competitive skate they've ever skated to share on social media and to help potentially gain exposure on a national level (Donovan Carrillo, Zahra Lari, etc.) and that's fantastic.
I get that Worlds is another experience to add to the list. But I simply cannot agree with anyone who believes the technical minimums should be erased and any skater, even at an extremely low level, should be granted an automatic ticket to Worlds. And because of that, there has to be some kind of minimum established.
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overedge
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A world championship has meaning to people outside the sport, not just to people involved in skating. And Worlds is not just about "exposure". Yes, being able to be seen by a worldwide in a lesser-known event that's streamed is something that is available to skaters that wasn't available before. But that doesn't replace the experience of competing at Worlds.
I also haven't seen a reasonable explanation of why an ISU member federation, which contributes membership fees to the operation of the ISU, should not have the right to at least one automatic entry in each discipline at Worlds (barring, of course, skaters who have a very low level of technical ability). The numbers argument doesn't wash. If the ISU only wants X number of entries at Worlds, then it should only have X number of member federations.
I also haven't seen a reasonable explanation of why an ISU member federation, which contributes membership fees to the operation of the ISU, should not have the right to at least one automatic entry in each discipline at Worlds (barring, of course, skaters who have a very low level of technical ability). The numbers argument doesn't wash. If the ISU only wants X number of entries at Worlds, then it should only have X number of member federations.
You yourself have said two times in this very thread 'barring skaters who have a very low level'. The ISU has determined the level for competing at a senior World Championship. If they lower the minimums, they are still shutting out some athletes.
ETA- So I'm going to give an example. I was landing 2T and 2S pretty easily at one point, and even rotating a 2A. I wasn't skating at a 'dangerous' level but I certainly wasn't very good. You're telling me that, because I'm at a low level (and would represent a developing nation in skating), I should still as my 33 year old self have a chance to go to Worlds?
MacMadame
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So far the argument for having technical minimums seems to be "of course they should have them." I would like to see a better argument than that.
I would actually prefer, rather than making people reach some technical score that changes constantly in order to control the number of entrants, that it was based on the skills someone has. For example, I think you should have to have at least one triple to compete at the Senior level. That would be harder to police though. So maybe having a technical score that is typical for skaters with at least X number of triples and a double axel who can get at least to level 2 on steps and spins would be a decent substitute.
But what the ISU does now -- having a technical minimum that can change even within that season is not a good way to do it IMO.
I would actually prefer, rather than making people reach some technical score that changes constantly in order to control the number of entrants, that it was based on the skills someone has. For example, I think you should have to have at least one triple to compete at the Senior level. That would be harder to police though. So maybe having a technical score that is typical for skaters with at least X number of triples and a double axel who can get at least to level 2 on steps and spins would be a decent substitute.
But what the ISU does now -- having a technical minimum that can change even within that season is not a good way to do it IMO.
I don't think a single person here agrees with the ISU being able to change the minimum. Once it's set, it should be set. But of course they need to establish some kind of minimum and it's logical with IJS since everything the skaters are doing is earning specific points. I'd like to think the ISU took some standard levels of a performance into account when determining the minimums, but you can never be sure with them.
Again, though, my point goes back to the people like @overedge who say 'let all the nations compete but only if they aren't at a very low level'. So in the end, there's still a determination of where the cut-off needs to be. Are my doubles enough to get in?
overedge
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Which is entirely justifiable for reasons of safety, for the skaters themselves and for others.
This video is really bad quality, but this is the level of skating that I think should be eliminated:
Indian Pairs Skating JGP debut
Indian pairs figure skating international debut at JGP Taipei, 2006
www.youtube.com
Yes. It's the World Championships, not the "Championships for Nations with Skaters who can Land Triple Jumps".
gkelly
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Well, if you were 13-18 you would be at a level that we do see from skaters on the JGP circuit. To be credible at the junior level, a skater needs a double axel (at least an attempt) and a double-double combination plus a specified harder double as the solo jump in a legal short program.
We do sometimes see skaters who are no closer to meeting the SP jump requirements than you would have been, though most are at least capable of the doubles albeit inconsistent.
The skaters who get to Junior Worlds, with minimums in place, are better than that.
But we expect more than that from seniors.
Agreed.
Seniors are required to have two different triples in the short program, along with a double axel. Any two triples are allowed.
So set the SP tech minimums as 3T+2T, 3S, and 2A, plus level 2, perhaps, for spins and steps. And then add the equivalent of another 3T, another 3S, another 2A, and three or four more double jumps (to allow for a seventh jump pass and three combinations total) in the freeskate.
Given the current requirements, that seems like a reasonable minimal expectation for seniors.
And someone who has good overall technical quality but lacks the ability to rotate triples could make up the difference with intentional doubles, at least in the freeskate, and positive GOEs. And/or level 3s and 4s on the spins and steps.
Personally, I'm more concerned about the quality of the skating than the jump content, to tell the truth, although that is less objective to quantify. I'd want to see skaters averaging at least 4.0 for SS in juniors and 5.0 in seniors. And we usually do, at junior and senior worlds, with a few exceptions.
But if that were an actual requirement along with the tech minimums, would judges start fudging the SS scores of skaters on the bubble for meeting the requirements? The same for GOEs.
If it's just small federation compatriot judges inflating their own skaters' scores at senior B events, how much effect could they have given the trimming and averaging? Perhaps enough to make the difference between just making the cut for the Worlds minimums and just missing it.
FINA (swimming) has qualifying times set for each event to get into Worlds. Can't hit that time? You aren't eligible. And most of these athletes are great swimmers that are faster than I can ever dream of, but just wouldn't be competitive in a Championship setting.
Gymnastics has been chipping away at the total athletes at Worlds and the Olympics for 20 years now, and starting in 2022, there is another new cap on the amount of athletes allowed to be entered.
Tennis and golf have majors which amount to Championships. Everyone guaranteed play? One entry per nation? No, they need to have qualified.
This isn't just a figure skating thing.
MacMadame
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You have doubles? Wow! I am impressed. Btw, our old COO not only had all the doubles, sometimes she has a triple toe.
Anyway, I think having standards is fine if they are reasonable and don't change constantly in an arbitrary way. Eddie the Eagle was fun, but that wasn't really safe. There are other ways for recreational athletes to compete and have goals.
overedge
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"Amounting to Championships" is not the same thing as being an event specifically designated as a World championship.
And none of these examples prove that a Worlds wouldn't work with representation from each member federation, minus skaters so low level as to be dangerous.
Also, last time I checked, skating wasn't just about jumps. I have seen some beautiful programs at the international level from skaters whose jump content was nowhere near that of the rest of the field.
That’s exactly why I provided you other examples.
I’m really not sure what you’re getting at with this statement. These sports are also limiting the number of athletes permitted. If we are using the same logic across the board, and we should since you are telling me it’s a ‘World Championship’, then you are saying any swimmer that can get across the length of the pool at least once (depending on the distance of the race, of course) should allowed to be entered as long as it’s from a nation with no other entries. Or a gymnast with good but not elite tumbling skills should automatically go to Worlds for their country.
Yup. I get that there are two parts to skating. But most (if not all) current skaters deserve at least the 6.00 or so average mark at Worlds (basing from the rosters the last few seasons), maybe a few getting into the 5s. You can gladly give me your examples that this isn’t true. Technically, though, there is a huge difference in skill level and this is for the title of all-around World Champion, so those skills are needed to be competitive. ETA- the skaters that DO excel by leaps and bound PCS-wise are rewarded. Jason Brown has among the lowest jumping content of any senior international male competing at Championships and he’s rewarded greatly for everything else he does, including the jumps he does attempt and land.
Again, I’m curious as to what your own definition of ‘not a low level’ would be, because as soon as you come up with one, I guarantee that you’re shutting some countries out of Worlds.
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VGThuy
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Gymnastics has been chipping away for the Olympics due to IOC quotas and adding trampoline affecting it. At worlds, there’s still a great number of gymnasts with varying degrees of skills competing from non-traditional gymnastics countries. Some can laugh at some of the gymnasts, but in years some of the countries being laughed at like ten or so years ago are now producing some world medalist contenders.
kwanfan1818
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I disagree. I think they should be able to lower the minimum to allow more skaters to meet it. I don't think they should be able to raise the minimum during the season.
I should’ve clarified- I agree that if they need to lower it, they should. But someone who has already met the criteria within a season shouldn’t suddenly lose their eligibility on a mid-season rule change. Hopefully the ISU learned their lesson after one instance of that one.
misskarne
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I feel like this is the perfect solution. Make it so that any Seniors going to Worlds can actually meet the program requirements of a Senior, but not ridiculously high.
I just think back to watching the first group of ladies at Euros this year, and one of the ladies had a nice 3Lo combo, and I think a 3F as a solo jump. She stumbled a little on the 2A but collected two level 4s and two level 3s and still did not meet the minimum TES (after the ISU changed it). I think that's appalling. That's too high. That's a ridiculously too high standard.
VGThuy
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This sort of reminds me of when gymnastics kept playing with the code of points before they changed it to a cumulative points system. I think the tech committee felt it was too easy for gymnasts to get 10.00 start values and the vault was progressing rapidly to the point where gymnasts could have 10.0 start values every where except vault so they made it harder to get 10.00 on the other three apparatuses. What happened was that the gymnasts were struggling to hit high scores (9.3s or lower were so common at 2001 Worlds) despite some difficult tumbling they were doing. By Athens, for the women, a 9.7 was like a 10.00. Also, the changes with them itemizing every element was the start of gymnastics killing choreography.
overedge
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I posted a link to a video of a pair competing at a JGP event that shows exactly what I meant by "low level".
Other skaters from that same country have competed at Worlds. Most of them were skaters who didn't live in that country, and who qualified to represent it because of their parents' citizenship. But I know for that country, at least, those skaters have spent time in the country giving seminars to skaters and working with coaches. So their international experience is helping develop more skaters and more skating knowledge in that country.
I believe the TES for the ladies short would then become 22.60, although that takes into account the highest value for the level 2 individual spin on one foot and doesn’t factor in the bonus for the late jump. 0 GOE for everything. This is also right around what the 4CC/European/assumed Olympic TES minimum would be.
I have no problem with changing the minimum to something else. But dropping it completely and potentially getting 70+ entries with drastic differences in talent level isn’t the right answer, either.
I have no problem with changing the minimum to something else. But dropping it completely and potentially getting 70+ entries with drastic differences in talent level isn’t the right answer, either.
So basically, one or two skaters every few years in the JGP wouldn’t be good enough for Worlds but everyone else would be, including skaters that are perfectly competent in basics but can’t even do double jumps.
And international experience is international experience. Skaters are getting much more opportunity for that now, even if it’s not Worlds.
We have to remember that for the senior ladies, as an example, not doing a triple in combo and not doing a triple individual jump is an automatic 0, as is the inability to go for a double Axel. They might get about 0.5 points for the other double in a 2+2 combo after the GOE is put in, but that’s it.
overedge
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If the only competitors allowed to be at Worlds are the ones with a reasonable chance of winning the title, or getting a medal, then the field is going to be very small. I don't see that it devalues the experience of the elite skaters in any way to have less elite competitors in the same field. I seriously doubt that someone with double jumps going to Worlds is going to be heartbroken when they don't end up on the podium.
I have no problem whatsover with a very low minimum qualifying standard. That may eliminate some countries' representatives in some years, but I don't see this as a consistent ongoing problem. Countries that have one ice rink in a skating mall can, and have, sent their skaters to training facilities in other countries, when they can afford it.
overedge
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Oh, GMAFB. A skater that can't do double jumps is not going to pass the senior competitive test in most countries, and wouldn't qualify for Worlds because of that.
There were skaters even in the early to mid 2000s at Worlds that had trouble with their doubles. You’re changing your tune now from ‘everyone except the dangers should be able to compete’ including me with my 2T and 2S in senior men’s competition example, to now saying those skaters wouldn’t even pass senior tests. So there is some kind of requirement that you’d want to see.
misskarne
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This feels like a non-sequitur. "Look at all these skaters who can't even do doubles at Worlds while Russian girls with quads have to stay home because of limits!"
Nobody legitimately wants skaters who can only do doubles to go to Worlds. What those of us sticking up for the smaller countries do want is a fairer benchmark. Are you suggesting that the fact that a lady who could do a clean 3Lo-2T combo and a clean 3F should be forbidden to go to Worlds but we should look at ways of flooding Worlds with big-country skaters? How is the first lady less worthy of a Worlds berth than a Russian quadster?
Are we following two different threads? From the beginning I've said that I'm in favor of keeping technical minimums because I think it gives the skaters something to push for and work towards. What those minimums should be, I don't know but the discussions I'm having now and in the last two pages are with people that 1) thought each country should get three spots to Worlds as an ISU member (even if it's sarcastic, we can still go to the one spot per country discussion) 2) as long as the skater isn't brand new and in the 0-1.00 range PCS-wise (as a 'danger'), then they should also able to go to Worlds. So, yes, there ARE people that think every country should have a spot at Worlds pretty much regardless of skill level because it will increase visibility for the country and give those skaters experience, and also because it's a 'World Championship' and should include every ISU member-- among other reasonings.
@misskarne let me ask you this- what would your bare minimum requirement be for the senior men? In ladies we can say 3+2, 3 individual jump, 2A, etc. because those are required to receive full credit for the SP jump elements, but what would you say is fair for the men? And ETA- like you did with the ladies, how would you increase it for the LP? ETA2- it was actually @gkelly with the suggestion. What would you say?
gkelly
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I didn't make a distinction of which sex I was thinking of.
Minimum SP requirements are the same for both senior men and senior ladies -- and now that the men only have 7 jump passes, the same is true for the freeskate. So I would be OK with the same minimum scores for both sexes.
The difference is that men are more likely to be able to meet that jump content even if their skating skill level is only worthy of 4s or even 3s. And those are the skaters who don't really belong at senior worlds.
So if you want something more in line with what's typical of what a male skater who can earn 5s is capable of, then maybe add a couple more points to the men's minimums to reflect at least 3F and 3Lz (or 3T+3T combo) in the SP, and at least five triples including some harder ones in the freeskate. Assuming 0 GOE -- if they can't get all the triples done they can make up the difference with GOEs and harder spins and steps. If the minimums are TES only, the steps and the jump quality might serve as some sort of proxy for basic skating quality.
So let's say 25.10 for the mens short (3Lz+2T, 3F, 2A) as the minimum- no bonus for the late jump. 52.50 for the free skate, adding (3A, 3Lz, 3Lo, 3S+2T and a ChSq). This gives them a buffer as they could still do another jump combo (and another jump within the combo), and doesn't take into account the jump bonus.
Using the chart here: http://www.isuresults.com/isujsstat/tes/stsmjustsen.htm (which counts both 2019 and 2020 seasons):
44 men would've qualified to Worlds with the lower TES requirements.
The 31 already scheduled to compete at Worlds and Yan who was removed from the roster, plus:
Galay (FIN)
Carrillo (MEX)
Milyukov (BLR)
Caluza (PHI)
Belohradsky (CZE)
Boe (NOR)
Tsao (TPE)
Lynette (THA)
Wong (HKG)
Maszljanko (HUN)
Neuman (SVK)
Brain (MON)
KZK, PRK, RSA, ESP (at least with the National Champion), POL (without Reznichenko who hasn't competed since '19 Worlds), IRL, SGP, DEN, AND, INA, NED, and ROU would all fall short-- some of them just barely and others not even close.
And there's no data on the TES page linked above for MDA, CRO, NZL, and UZB.
Is this more the kind of field that people want to see? Less? Or should it really go to the potential 54 entries that started the whole debate?
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