ISU to propose expansion of Worlds fields; 2020 Worlds unlikely to be rescheduled

[tony]

Example of the men using 2020 Worlds entries and then those skaters highest on the 2020 seasons best list for non-Worlds qualifiers:

Bold means not scheduled to compete at 2020 Worlds
Bold and italic means not scheduled to compete at 2020 Worlds and seasons best score was achieved in junior competition, but would be age-eligible for 2021 Worlds

1. Chen USA 335.30
2. Hanyu JPN 322.59
3. Aymoz FRA 275.63
4. Brown USA 274.82
5. Aliev RUS 272.89
6. Jin CHN 268.31
7. Cha KOR 265.43
8. Nguyen CAN 262.77
9. Uno JPN 255.23
10. Tanaka JPN 250.02
11. Yan CHN 249.45 (Wasn't on Worlds list due to travel restrictions)
12. Danielian RUS 246.74
13. Kvitelashvili GEO 246.71
14. Grassl ITA 244.88
15. Rizzo ITA 241.88
16. Vasiljevs LAT 241.09
17. Brezina CZE 236.47
18. Zhou USA 231.95
19. Fentz GER 230.01
20. Selevko EST 221.94
21. Shmuratko UKR 221.44
22. Litvintshev AZE 221.09
23. Kerry AUS 220.31
24. Bychenko ISR 219.70
25. Majorov SWE 212.57
26. Yee MAS 211.63
27. Galay FIN 203.52
28. Carrillo MEX 201.09
29. Milyukov BLR 195.63
30. Hallam GBR 195.61
31. Hayrapetyan ARM 194.61
32. Caluza PHI 191.89
33. Britschgi SUI 190.75
34. Belohradsky CZE 190.54 (Using the CZE has 2 spots based on 2019 placements)
35. Boe NOR 189.25
36. Tsao TPE 186.82
37. Zandron AUT 185.57
38. Demirboga TUR 185.52
39. Lynette THA 177.83
40. Loupolover BUL 177.26
41. Bralin KAZ 170.28 (J)
42. Ro PRK 169.25 (J)
43. Samuels RSA 164.18
44. Wong HKG 162.63
45. Gabara ESP 153.29
46. Witkowski POL 152.81 (J)
47. McAllister IRL 152.72
48. Maszljanko HUN 134.53
49. Binzari MDA 129.25 (J)
50. Neuman SVK 128.37
51. Katanovic CRO 126.25 (J)
52. Bain NZL 124.45 (J)
53. Sng SGP 120.22 (J)
54. Strzelec DEN 115.56 (J)
55. Dijkstra NED 99.33 (J)
56. Shabazov UZB 99.00 (J)
57. Caubet AND 98.87 (J)
58. Apolianto INA 87.83 (J)

Only one other nation had a skater (SLO) on the seasons best list but he wouldn't be age-eligible in 2021.

How many of those skaters should be at Worlds? All of them? 54 as the ISU suggests? A different amount?

 

[Orm Irian]

Then you have even more skaters than the ISU proposal

Fine by me.

and many skaters who probably shouldn’t be there

Or skaters who you think shouldn't be there, which is far from the same thing.

'World', adjective, modifies 'Championship', noun. The point of the championship is to include the world, not glorify a highly restricted subset of it.

 

[thvu]

'World', adjective, modifies 'Championship', noun. The point of the championship is to include the world, not glorify a highly restricted subset of it.

What point are you trying to make here? Because that certainly has never been the position of the ISU. So, you’re either confused or failing at subtle condescension.

 

[tony]

Fine by me.



Or skaters who you think shouldn't be there, which is far from the same thing.

'World', adjective, modifies 'Championship', noun. The point of the championship is to include the world, not glorify a highly restricted subset of it.

So if I want to go skate for Peru, I could do so and double and single jump my way into Worlds with terrible components scores just because you’re giving a grammar lesson? Sorry. The thought is nice, but it’s not realistic.

 

[gkelly]

If the expansion proposal passes, it would involve restoration of a qualifying round, possibly some easing of the technical score minimums currently in place for basic entry and establishing a method for direct entry to the short program.

Sounds like there would likely be some minimum scores, but they might be lower than is currently the case. Maybe same as Euros/4Cs/Olympics, or maybe all of the above would have lower minimums than now.

 

[tony]

Sounds like there would likely be some minimum scores, but they might be lower than is currently the case. Maybe same as Euros/4Cs/Olympics, or maybe all of the above would have lower minimums than now.

Just noting that I know what this says, but I’m debating with someone who says every country should simply have three spots each.

 

[Vagabond]

Example of the men using 2020 Worlds entries and then those skaters highest on the 2020 seasons best list for non-Worlds qualifiers:

Bold means not scheduled to compete at 2020 Worlds
Bold and italic means not scheduled to compete at 2020 Worlds and seasons best score was achieved in junior competition, but would be age-eligible for 2021 Worlds

1. Chen USA 335.30

31. Hayrapetyan ARM 194.61

52. Bain NZL 124.45 (J)
53. Sng SGP 120.22 (J)
54. Strzelec DEN 115.56 (J)
55. Dijkstra NED 99.33 (J)
56. Shabazov UZB 99.00 (J)
57. Caubet AND 98.87 (J)
58. Apolianto INA 87.83 (J)

How many of those skaters should be at Worlds? All of them? 54 as the ISU suggests? A different amount?

As mentioned in one of the first posts in this thread, the proposal may be in response to IOC pressure to open up Worlds to more countries.

Alpine skiing manage to find ways of including their not only their Chens and Hayratpetyans but also their Strzelecs in their World Championships. Figure skating can do the same.

Besides, if you want figure skating to develop as a sport in places such as Denmark and Indonesia, it will be helpful for those federations to have coaches who can market themselves as former World Championship competitors.

While I would prefer to see Short Programs with 54 entrants rather than Qualifying Rounds, I do think this is a step in the right direction.

 

[tony]

As mentioned in one of the first posts in this thread, the proposal may be in response to IOC pressure to open up Worlds to more countries.

I believe you're referring to my first post in the thread. I know I interviewed someone long ago about the suggestions/requirements for keeping the sport going- maybe from the IOC but I don't remember and I don't remember the explanation I was given.

While I would prefer to see Short Programs with 54 entrants rather than Qualifying Rounds, I do think this is a step in the right direction.

I think that makes more sense, but I feel sympathetic for any judge having to stay on high alert for 10 hours. It's not impossible and it's been done before (I think 2009 Worlds may have had some of the biggest entry lists ever and some of these junior competitions are insanely big as well) but it's a lot to ask and I don't think any of the judges, technical panels, or even crowds would be in favor of it. The difference is the crowd can come and go, probably for the big-name skaters, but it's a huge ask from those who determine the results.

 

[Vagabond]

I think that makes more sense, but I feel sympathetic for any judge having to stay on high alert for 10 hours.

Fifty-four is a lot of Short Programs, but I reckon the ISU can work out the appropriate number. Forty-two, maybe?

I will note here that having so many skaters to judge might force judges to apply COP more accurately, rating each program on its own without regard to other ones.

 

[tony]

Fifty-four is a lot of Short Programs, but I reckon the ISU can work out the appropriate number. Forty-two, maybe?

I will note here that having so many skaters to judge might force judges to apply COP more accurately, rating each program on its own without regard to how other ones.

If you're going down to 42, you're most likely only adding a few more skaters to the field, and probably none of which come from countries that some posters in the thread want to see more developed/have more opportunity. The ladies were set to be 37 at this World Championship, as an example, and were at 40 competitors in 2019.

I think the ISU wanted six warm-up groups or or less for the singles so there could be an even number and not require an additional ice resurfacing. I can't read their minds, but I'd guess that was the hope before 37 of them snuck in this year.

The thing is that 100% of the skating fandom is never going to be happy no matter what regulations or minimums the ISU sets. I think the requirements were a little harsh this year, but I don't have a problem with the idea of minimums being a basis for qualification at all.

And if they really want to cap the field at a certain number- 36 or 42 or whatever, then have your automatic qualifiers from the previous Worlds (or from earlier in the season somehow) and then the rest of them can fight it out in a February international to get those last spots rather than allowing [unknown] number of entries based on the benchmark score.

 

[Coco]

I think a hybrid system of technical minimums and using contintental championships to qualify wildcards who didn't meet minimums could have benefits.

 

[tony]

I think a hybrid system of technical minimums and using contintental championships to qualify wildcards who didn't meet minimums could have benefits.

But how? Using the men again - only three of men in the final 24 free skate at Europeans, who had allotted slots to Worlds, weren't on the roster for Montreal (Belohradsky, Boe, and Lebedev in 20th-22nd places). You can't really give a wildcard to someone who didn't finish the competition..

4CC only had 4 spots of skaters who would've been eligible for Worlds granted they hit the minimums, and that's after going through the entire field.

31 + Han + 3 from Europeans + 4 from 4CC and you're still only at 39 entries.

 

[skatingguy]

Maybe this proposal is more aspirational then practical at this point. Opening up the possibility of having skaters competing at the World Championships could encourage more countries to fund the sport, though given the current state of the world I think public health, and economic stability are going to receive a lot more attention in the next few years than luxuries like international sport.

 

[Coco]

Why can't you give a wildcard to someone who didn't make the free?

It's not like they'll be making the free at world's, so what's the problem?

It's about getting them the experience in the world's sp.

I think it's pointless, but my idea seems as fair as any.

Of course, wildcards would most likely be nominative, not positions a Fed could fill with just anyone. Feds would hate that as it's a loss of control.

 

[Foolhardy Ham Lint]

I'm somehow reminded of when I attended the 2006 World Championships, and when I saw that the last group of qualifying ladies consisted entirely of OES, I did something I never do and skipped them all together.

 

[Lanja]

Maybe it would be nice to have a separate competition for the lower-TES athletes from countries that normally do not get to participate.

What about a B-pool worlds? Use a relegation/advancement system for the top 5 in B-pool and last 5 in A-pool?

 

[Marco]

Perhaps this is the perfect timing to reconsider per country rules. Hear me out.

Worlds is supposed to (1) have the world's actual best skaters compete; (2) have as many member nations being represented as possible to be truly meaningful. Now, to reconcile the two without breaking the bank:

I want to expand on what Tony said earlier. Using the conclusion of Euros and 4CCs as a cut-off point and using singles for example, in order of qualification -
1. 6 spots from top 6 from previous Worlds
2. 3 spots to the next 3 highest SB total scores at the cut off point
3. 3 spots to the next 3 highest WS points from the current season at the cut off point
4. GPF medalists, if not already qualified form above
5. 3 spots from the next 3 highest placements from 4CCs
6. 3 spots from the next 3 highest placements from Euros
7. That's 18 - 21 spots down. These spots are earned by the skaters personally and are exempt from having to skate at the qualifying round.
8. After that, each member nation gets 1 guaranteed spot but this spot is subject to having met the Worlds minimums and having to skate at the qualifying round at Worlds. The member nation gets to choose who it sends. The rules can limit the short program competitor size to say, 36. That way, the number of skaters to qualify out of the qualifying round would be 15 to 18, depending on step 4.

1 - 6 will ensure the top skaters get to skate at Worlds regardless of countries. 7 will ensure that the contending skaters do not tire themselves out from having to skate the qualifying round. 8 will ensure all member nations are represented, with an objective threshold to trim out under-competitive skaters. As long as they can meet the mins, they all get to skate at the qualifying round.

Let's face it - a non major skating country is not going to have exclusive broadcast rights to Worlds and is most likely going to get free ISU youtube streaming (I forget the European arrangement - no longer Eurosports?!). That in itself is a good way to reach those viewers. Viewers from major skating countries are going to be stoked that there is a deeper field or that more skaters from their country are competing. It is possible that there will be more coverage.

Using this season and the ladies as an example, qualifiers for 2020 Worlds would have been:

1. Zagitova, Tursy, Medvedeva, Kihira, Sakamoto, Miyahara
2. Kostornaia, Trusova, Shchberkova
3. Young You, Eunsoo Lim, Higuchi
4. -
5. Tennell, Yelim Kim, Karen Chen (if Worlds spots were up for grabs, perhaps Bell wouldn't have skipped but who knows how she would have skated)
6. Paganini, Peltonen, Ryabova
7. 18 spots above - so 18 more spots are available for the member nations to fight, one spot each. Tuktamysheva, Bell (or Chen if Bell had gone to 4CCs and earned a spot there), Kawabata, Pinault / Bausback, Hanul Kim will likely be sent to the qualifying event. For other nations who only had one spot to begin with, the process is the same.

 

[barbarafan]

Maybe this just needs to be a way to deal with the next worlds.

Skaters from small feds are going to be doing it tough. The rinks are closed (heck one rink in Madrid got turned into a morgue), there is no funding and people have lost their jobs. Chances are making them reach a high tech minimum would just kill any chance of going to Worlds. And probably really damage any incentive to keep paying to train.

I think this is a fair idea for the next worlds. When the world is back on its feet, they can reintroduce tech minimums.

So many skaters are going to have to put in huge amounts of work just to get jumps back that they normally always just had.

Not every skater is from a big Fed and has been funded during this break and will be able to get back on the ice straight away.

I am not sure if completely removing them is the best idea. What if for countries where it is their first year having entries or they have just starting having skaters entered in the last 5 yrs. the tech mins are reduced by 10 pts and all other countries reduced by 5 points, or something along those lines.

 

[mjb52]

What if we just make Russian Nationals Worlds and invite the 1-3 best skaters from other countries to participate

 

[clairecloutier]

I always thought that this decision to limit the field at worlds was penny wise and pound foolish. It gave kids in the non-powerhouse nations little to no chance to ever compete internationally since GP assignments are largely based on marks and placements at the previous year's worlds. I've talked to so many skaters and parents of skaters who were thrilled that their child was going to Worlds, even if they didn't make it out of qualifying.

This drives interest for all of the figure skaters in the smaller nations, not just the ones who make the podium and the TV broadcasts. The Japanese program basically started with Midor Ito, and grew from there. This idea of qualifying for worlds, discourages the growth of the sport, in my opinion.

I agree with this perspective. If I were voting, I would vote for this proposal, or something like it. I think for the growth of the sport, it’s important for more countries to compete at Worlds.

Surprised to see relatively little support here for the idea. There were complaints this past season about the ISU raising minimums unexpectedly and cheerleading for skaters trying to make those minimums, so I would’ve thought people would be supportive of a proposal to open up Worlds more. (Crocodile tears??)

Personally I would not support making GPF medals an automatic qualifier for Worlds. I find the whole process of qualification for the GPF too suspect to further endorse it with Worlds berths. Until they solve the problem of unequal fields in different GPs, which has a significant effect on placements, the process is too imperfect IMO.

 

[allezfred]

The Japanese program basically started with Midor Ito,

Good lord, no.

Japanese figure skaters have competed at Worlds and Olympics since 1932. Japan won its first world medals in 1977 (Minoru Sano) and 1979 (Emi Watanabe).

 

[VGThuy]

Good lord, no.

Japanese figure skaters have competed at Worlds and Olympics since 1932. Japan won its first world medals in 1977 (Minoru Sano) and 1979 (Emi Watanabe).

Yep. And before that the Satos competed and “learned the trade”, so to speak, to become the coaches that helped develop a whole generation of future world champions/medalists and an Olympic one.

 

[clairecloutier]

There is updated news today. The ISU Council held an online meeting on April 6 and have released a document with the latest decisions:

1. There will be no new pattern in the Nov/Junior/Senior divisions this year. Pattern dances for 2020-21 will remain the same as last year.

2. There is still a possibility that Worlds 2020 could be rescheduled (in the Oct-Dec 2020 timeframe) but it would be dependent on significant improvement in the coronavirus situation worldwide over the next 2 weeks and "a horizon" (i.e., projected endpoint) that would allow planning.

3. ISU Congress definitely delayed to June 2021.

https://www.isu.org/inside-isu/isu-communications/communications/24257-2312-decisions-of-the-council-april-6-2020/file

 

[VGThuy]

That makes sense. A lot of skaters are losing training time, and this is the best decision given the circumstances.

 

[Dragonlady]

Good lord, no.

Japanese figure skaters have competed at Worlds and Olympics since 1932. Japan won its first world medals in 1977 (Minoru Sano) and 1979 (Emi Watanabe).

I stand corrected, and thank you for that.

What I should have said was that until Midori Ito, mobs of Japanese media and fans weren't following skaters around. But there also weren't plane loads of kids coming from Japan. Neither Japan nor China were even thought of as powerhouse skating nations, when their small cadre of dedicated coaches managed to produce a world champion. Then sport participation and interest exploded in their country, and there were contingents of fans following their skaters around the world.

Back in 2002, I sat in the stands at Thornhill Summer Skate and watched 100 young Japanese skaters who had flown in for summer schools at the Granite, the Cricket and the Mariposa Club from Novice level up to senior and posted that the future of figure skating flew a red and white flag and it wasn't Canada.

We're seeing the same thing happen in Korea with Yuna Kim. And we're seeing more rising Spanish skaters on the heels of Javier Fernandez. All of these countries had programs before they had a star, but the difference since one of their own became world champion, makes the world of difference to their programs.

I get the financial restrictions and costs involved, but for the continued growth of the sport, I consider it a wise investment in the future.

 

[Rhino]

Sounds like there would likely be some minimum scores, but they might be lower than is currently the case. Maybe same as Euros/4Cs/Olympics, or maybe all of the above would have lower minimums than now.

If you used these minimums you would have ended up with 48 male skaters at this years World Championships (40 countries, plus 8 additional entries), and 53 female (45 countries, plus 8 additional - Kazakhstan would have only had 1 additional, plus Elisabet Tursynbaeva wouldn't be there either).

However I fail to see how the proposals would address the one big problem which no one really seems to have picked up on this season, and that is the lack of figure skating coverage on TV.

For example Eurosport has pulled out this year, and even though the ISU has done a good job in getting replacement broadcasters, there's still at least 10 to a dozen European countries (I'm in one of them) that have have had no TV coverage of figure skating this season (things might have been slightly different with Worlds but we'll never know), plus the Grand Prix Final wasn't even shown in 2 of the individual hosting countries i.e. Canada and France, and I'm not sure the ISU's Skating ISU Youtube channel is an adequate replacement - it's never had more than 20,000 viewers at any one moment for any of its individual segments - perhaps the ISU thinks that by having more countries represented its viewer figures are going to go up, but it's going to be pretty small beer.

Really as mentioned above you've got to get that balance between something that's attractive as possible to the TV companies/viewers while at the same time giving as many skaters as possible their shot - the figures above show that none of the skaters competing would be mugs if they used the Euros/4CC's minimums.

However I'm not convinced about the GPF medallists proposal. The problem is that they might be all from one country, meaning that you might get 6 skaters from one country, with no more than 3 from another, which I'm sure would not be particularly attractive to those that want to see a wide-ranging championship rather than one dominated by skaters from one particular country.

Instead I would suggest going go with the defending World Champion and the newly crowned European and 4 Continents champions, that way you would get a max of 5 from one country and 4 from another, plus in many years you would get 4 from 3, and if one of the winners was from a small figure skating country e.g. Javier Fernandez then they wouldn't even be on 4 spots.

The other thing to bear in mind in all this would be the TV companies position. They want a championship that's as attractive as possible to viewers (more chance to make money by commercials etc.), but the big TV companies from the USA, Japan, and presumably Russia (they're the ones that really pay the bills) are also going to want to see at least 2 or 3 of their skaters if at all possible in the final 2 groups - I would imagine any TV company that is going to provide coverage worth its salt is going to be looking to join the competition during the final ice resurface with 2 groups, i.e 12 skaters, still to go. Then they're going to have something like a quick re-cap of what's gone on so far, maybe show the current leader's performance, then fluff pieces about the leading/their own contenders, and then on with the action.

Will going to a possible max of 5 from one country and 4 from another affect this? Maybe, maybe not, but I would have thought in most cases they would still have 2 or 3 of their contenders in the final 2 groups which is what they'll be looking for, plus from skating's wider perspective you should have the strongest possible field within reason for what is their showpiece event for the World.

Of course one or two skaters would miss out e.g. those that currently finish 22nd, 23rd or 24th in the SP would miss out on the free program (unless one of the extra entries has a Kevin Aymoz Euros type meltdown), plus those that would get positions 34 to 36 from the qualifying position would miss out, but in my opinion it would be a reasonable balance between getting the strongest possible competition while giving skaters from as many small figure skating countries as possible their chance.

 

[skatingguy]

For example Eurosport has pulled out this year, and even though the ISU has done a good job in getting replacement broadcasters, there's still at least 10 to a dozen European countries (I'm in one of them) that have have had no TV coverage of figure skating this season (things might have been slightly different with Worlds but we'll never know), plus the Grand Prix Final wasn't even shown in 2 of the individual hosting countries i.e. Canada and France, and I'm not sure the ISU's Skating ISU Youtube channel is an adequate replacement - it's never had more than 20,000 viewers at any one moment for any of its individual segments - perhaps the ISU thinks that by having more countries represented its viewer figures are going to go up, but it's going to be pretty small beer.

I thought was more that the ISU sold the rights to a 3rd part - Infront - and that they were asking too much for the rights for Eurosport or CBC to pay for the TV rights. The CBC ultimately did strike to deal to stream the events, but no television coverage. Interestingly they did have a deal for Speed Skating & Short Track because those were on television this past season. It's not clear to me what it was that Infront was supposed to do, and how it was to increase exposure for the sport but it certainly doesn't seem to have worked.

ISU and Infront pair up for new exclusive media rights partnership

ISU and Infront pair up for new exclusive media rights partnership

www.infront.sport

 

[MacMadame]

We're no longer in an "everything is on TV particularly one of the broadcast networks" world and I don't think we'll ever go back to that. In fact, I think the future will be one where pretty much everything is streamed and there won't even be cable or broadcast networks anymore except as companies that produce streaming content and/or run streaming channels.

Therefore, whether or not figure skating is shown "on tv" is irrelevant because tv is dying and will soon be dead.

 

[Bellanca]

2. There is still a possibility that Worlds 2020 could be rescheduled (in the Oct-Dec 2020 timeframe) but it would be dependent on significant improvement in the ******** situation worldwide over the next 2 weeks and "a horizon" (i.e., projected endpoint) that would allow planning.

I can see that, but way to keep the athletes hanging, guys. They just need to decide and stick with it. It's a tough call and I know they would love to reschedule, but at this point maybe it would be better to keep kicking the can down the road. It sucks, but the uncertainty is worse.

 

[tony]

They really should just cancel Worlds completely at this point. The skaters don't even want it. Even if things do calm down in the next few weeks, who knows when the shelter in place rules will actually be completely lifted. This probably means, at minimum, two months of lost training time and then everyone trying to get programs done at the same time (many of them by the same small set of choreographers) and get back into competitive shape. I guarantee none of them have ever taken ~2 months off the ice unless they've had a serious injury, so a big part of the time in the beginning is going to be relearning a lot of skills and getting back into the rhythm, as opposed to perfecting new skills and choreography.

By holding Worlds in October, you're expecting the skaters to be back in top shape in the four or so months or training time they would possibly have (but not even guaranteed), probably skating the new programs that they would skate at 2021 Worlds anyways, and then a Grand Prix and Challenger series in the weeks directly following the big event. It just makes all logical sense to let the normal flow of the season play out rather than expect skaters to have two peaks 5 months apart.

Another thing (more about the virus itself) that we have to keep in mind is- lifting the stay at home rules when the cases have completely declined sounds great, but there are many people still getting the virus that aren't showing any symptoms. Once you reopen the flood gates, this thing might start all over again.