ISU to evaluate feasibility of 2020-21 skating season

[Lemonade20]

I think Cizeron (and I might be imagining this or confusing him with someone else) has a long term Canadian partner and maybe that helped get the visa through faster?

But he was able to go back to see his family in France and will be quarantining in Canada for 2 weeks on the way back.

However Papadakis can't leave Canada. I feel very very sorry for the athletes who haven't seen family members for almost a year. It must be awful.

Depending on the condition of the world in March, this may well still be an issue for teams training in closed border nations actually going to Worlds.

That’s the heartbreaking part, people who have lost loved ones or are unable to travel to see their loved ones.

 

[mjb52]

https://twitter.com/DrEricDing/status/1327230581143465984?s=20

Does this look like a thoughtful and objective presentation of data to you? Their actual rate is 35 per 100,000, which is not low but not particularly sensational. No one uses cases per million as a standard, so the fact that this infographic uses cases per million to make the situation in Sweden look worse is a huge red flag. It is true that they are having an uptick in cases and imposing new restrictions. That is not a justification for this histrionic infographic and the use of histrionic and manipulative infographics is a big part of the problem with the response to this virus because they spread so quickly through social media (as they are undoubtedly meant to).

 

[Meoima]

Does this look like a thoughtful and objective presentation of data to you? Their actual rate is 35 per 100,000, which is not low but not particularly sensational. No one uses cases per million as a standard, so the fact that this infographic uses cases per million to make the situation in Sweden look worse is a huge red flag. It is true that they are having an uptick in cases and imposing new restrictions. That is not a justification for this histrionic infographic and the use of histrionic and manipulative infographics is a big part of the problem with the response to this ***** because they spread so quickly through social media (as they are undoubtedly meant to).

So you are saying Sweden isn’t getting more cases?
But... https://twitter.com/germanrlopez/status/1326610011078991872?s=20

 

[mjb52]

"It is true that they are having an uptick in cases" is right there in my post, right before "and imposing new restrictions."

 

[taz'smum]

However Papadakis can't leave Canada. I feel very very sorry for the athletes who haven't seen family members for almost a year. It must be awful.

Depending on the condition of the world in March, this may well still be an issue for teams training in closed border nations actually going to Worlds.

Yes it is very tough for the athletes and their families! The last time I saw Tiff was in January, and that was only a 5 day flying visit.
It was strange as she’d never normally have taken time out of training like that just before worlds, but she said she just knew that she had to come home, but didn’t really know why! It meant she had to defy the coaches wishes and steal training time to come, something she’d never normally do, especially just before worlds. It was almost as if she knew something was coming that would stop her coming home! Some kind of intuition !
I was so glad she came home as otherwise I’d not have seen her this year

 

[Immortelle]

I was so glad she came home as otherwise I’d not have seen her this year

Almost a whole year! Hats off to you both, you must be really feeling it. I’ve only been away from my mum for six weeks and I’m already dreaming about hugging her...

 

[Theatregirl1122]

Does this look like a thoughtful and objective presentation of data to you? Their actual rate is 35 per 100,000, which is not low but not particularly sensational. No one uses cases per million as a standard, so the fact that this infographic uses cases per million to make the situation in Sweden look worse is a huge red flag. It is true that they are having an uptick in cases and imposing new restrictions. That is not a justification for this histrionic infographic and the use of histrionic and manipulative infographics is a big part of the problem with the response to this ***** because they spread so quickly through social media (as they are undoubtedly meant to).

Are you really trying to claim that using million as a denominator instead of 100,000 creates misleading data?

 

[mjb52]

Are you really trying to claim that using million as a denominator instead of 100,000 creates misleading data?

If you look at that image and see a thoughtful, objective, carefully made presentation of data that is designed to inform the public then I don't even know what to say to you. It is essentially visual propaganda designed to manipulate. If you agree with its purpose, good for you, that's your prerogative. I personally find it irresponsible.

 

[Vagabond]

If you look at that image and see a thoughtful, objective, carefully made presentation of data that is designed to inform the public then I don't even know what to say to you. It is essentially visual propaganda designed to manipulate. If you agree with its purpose, good for you, that's your prerogative. I personally find it irresponsible.

Isn't it designed to manipulate people's perceptions in a good way, inasmuch as it demonstrates that rates of infection have fairly consistently exceeded those in Norway and are skyrocketing now, thereby making the case that the Swedish model has not been as effective as the Norwegian?

Propaganda isn't inherently a bad thing. Urging people to keep six feet apart and wear face masks to cut infection rates is, after all, a form of propaganda.

 

[mjb52]

Isn't it designed to manipulate people's perceptions in a good way, inasmuch as it demonstrates that rates of infection have fairly consistently exceeded those in Norway and are skyrocketing now, thereby making the case that the Swedish model has not been as effective as the Norwegian?

Propaganda isn't inherently a bad thing. Urging people to keep six feet apart and wear face masks to cut infection rates is, after all, a form of propaganda.

I'm not sure from your last sentence that you even understand what propaganda is tbh.

 

[Theatregirl1122]

If you look at that image and see a thoughtful, objective, carefully made presentation of data that is designed to inform the public then I don't even know what to say to you. It is essentially visual propaganda designed to manipulate. If you agree with its purpose, good for you, that's your prerogative. I personally find it irresponsible.

Your claim was that it was manipulative because “no one uses cases per million”. Changing the denominator doesn’t make it manipulative. Is the graphic that @Meoima posted manipulative?

If you have other problems with that graphic, fine, call them out. They weren’t what you mentioned so get off your freaking high horse.

 

[Vagabond]

I'm not sure from your last sentence that you even understand what propaganda is tbh.

I understand very well whatit is. I quote from the definition to which I linked: "A concerted set of messages aimed at influencing the opinions or behavior of large numbers of people." The word is frequently used with a negative connotation, but the word itself can be neutral or have a positive one.

 

[Miezekatze]

The situation in Sweden is bad right now, but not worse than in most other European countries (I think their numbers are somewhat in the middle field of Europe), so them holding Worlds is about as realistic as anybody elses. I doubt the situation in Zagreb is any better.

I wonder if there is any chance of postponing euros to early spring and worlds to late spring or early summer, things might be more relaxed then again.

 

[Alilou]

I understand what is very well. I quote from the definition to which I linked: "A concerted set of messages aimed at influencing the opinions or behavior of large numbers of people." The word is frequently used with a negative connotation, but the word itself can be neutral or have a positive one.

It may be neutral or have a positive meaning but that is never how it is colloquially used. If you use the word propaganda people will automatically think of it as negative because that's how it's commonly used. perhaps I should even say that's how it's always used. Since this is the common usage and you want it to have a positive spin I suggest you find another word.

 

[Brenda_Bottems]

This discussion is as absorbing and fascinating as the Russian ladies are mature artists.

-BB

 

[Scott512]

I have a plan B!

I don't want to see the big events cancelled again. If it comes to canceling the big events then just have the skaters who have qualified for them skate on their home rink whether it's in front of five fans or 500 fans or no fans. Have international judging panels give the scores from what they see. Yes it would be messy it would be confusing it would be tough to score but it would be better than not having anything. Missing worlds again with the devastation.

 

[AxelAnnie]

if it happens it will in fact take place in a bubble - the arena looks like a giant round bubble The situation at the moment is unclear. Currently 300 spectators are allowed at sporting events but that will probably not be the case for much longer as the arrival of a second wave is now a fact. Nothing has been heard from the organizers of Worlds yet. If travel restrictions allow it, a ”bubble Worlds”. in our while bubble arena is better than nothing.

And then what is the point? What.do skaters gain by participating? That is a real question.

Not sure

I have a plan B!

I don't want to see the big events cancelled again. If it comes to canceling the big events then just have the skaters who have qualified for them skate on their home rink whether it's in front of five fans or 500 fans or no fans. Have international judging panels give the scores from what they see. Yes it would be messy it would be confusing it would be tough to score but it would be better than not having anything. Missing worlds again with the devastation.

Genius!

 

[Cherub721]

The situation in Sweden is bad right now, but not worse than in most other European countries (I think their numbers are somewhat in the middle field of Europe), so them holding Worlds is about as realistic as anybody elses. I doubt the situation in Zagreb is any better.

I wonder if there is any chance of postponing euros to early spring and worlds to late spring or early summer, things might be more relaxed then again.

I like this idea but the problem would be that this season leads into the Olympic season which requires skaters to peak earlier. Any other season I think it could work

I have a plan B!

I don't want to see the big events cancelled again. If it comes to canceling the big events then just have the skaters who have qualified for them skate on their home rink whether it's in front of five fans or 500 fans or no fans. Have international judging panels give the scores from what they see. Yes it would be messy it would be confusing it would be tough to score but it would be better than not having anything. Missing worlds again with the devastation.

And then we can spend decades debating whether the results were legitimate! a skating fan's dream!

 

[Scott512]

I like this idea but the problem would be that this season leads into the Olympic season which requires skaters to peak earlier. Any other season I think it could work



And then we can spend decades debating whether the results were legitimate! a skating fan's dream!

I like this idea but the problem would be that this season leads into the Olympic season which requires skaters to peak earlier. Any other season I think it could work



And then we can spend decades debating whether the results were legitimate! a skating fan's dream!

I get your point the controversies will be endless. But it's better than nothing and right now I think we're heading for nothing as far as European and world's go and maybe even the Olympics in February of 2022 in Beijing. This virus keeps coming back in China and dozens if not hundreds of other countries. Sad.

I think my plan is a viable option only if they're not going to have a Europeans or worlds this season because of the virus. I would be okay if skaters travel to other countries for these events and performed in front of an empty arenas under the greatest amount of safety possible. Of course Sports is not nearly as important as life but to a lot of us it is somewhat important and it would be devastating if there was no world's two years in a row. Last year if aliona or Sasha one worlds they certainly would not have left TT. But it didn't happen and they left.

 

[MacMadame]

It may be neutral or have a positive meaning but that is never how it is colloquially used. If you use the word propaganda people will automatically think of it as negative because that's how it's commonly used. perhaps I should even say that's how it's always used. Since this is the common usage and you want it to have a positive spin I suggest you find another word.

Marketing

But it's better than nothing

No, it isn't. Such a competition could not give any of the benefits of Worlds to the skaters so they'd be spending time and money on a meaningless endevour.

 

[Dobre]

I wonder if there is any chance of postponing euros to early spring and worlds to late spring or early summer, things might be more relaxed then again.

With the current estimate for when the vaccine will be available to the general public here being April, I have also thought that pushing back Worlds a couple months could happen. Might feel not worth it if the event is to be held without an audience anyway and considering the likelihood of timelines being different the world over + potential delays & the huge challenges that may come with distribution. Perhaps athletes & coaches may have access before the general public. At this point all these factors are impossible to know, much less the most important one regarding where travel restrictions will be this spring. (I have a feeling countries will want to see the vaccine begin to work among their own populations prior to easing travel restrictions). But it does seem that a delay might be advantageous, as opposed to last year when there really was no potential timeline in sight.

 

[Debbie S]

No, it isn't. Such a competition could not give any of the benefits of Worlds to the skaters so they'd be spending time and money on a meaningless endevour.

If it's a choice between virtual Worlds or no Worlds, skaters may prefer the virtual option. As Dobre noted above, figuring out when Worlds could take place is tricky, if it can't be held in March. I'm sure the skaters wouldn't mind an in-person Worlds in April or May, but if it has to be pushed to July or August, they might not be so excited about that, esp given that their preparation and timing is a bit different for the Oly season. And assuming we have an Olys, some sort of Worlds is needed to determine spots.

I suspect U.S. Nats (if it happens at all) will end up being virtual, but that's a discussion for another thread.

 

[MacMadame]

If it's a choice between virtual Worlds or no Worlds, skaters may prefer the virtual option.

But they won't give points for it. Would there even be prize money?

 

[miffy]

I think the important thing now is how to decide the qualifying spots for the Olympics. Normally it is Worlds plus a challenger. Is it possible to do the whole qualifying thing at one event next season? It would obviously have to be a huge Worlds type event with every country there. Maybe have ‘Worlds’ in Autumn for once - I hate that idea but if it’s the only way to fairly qualify spots I’d be ok with it!

Although - are they still doing that new thing where if a country earns 2 spots at Worlds thanks to 1 skater only, a different skater needs to secure the second spot at the qualifying event to prove the country deserves it? In that case they obviously couldn’t do it all at 1 event, I can’t remember now if that was a definite thing. I’m kind of hoping I dreamt it even though I see the logic, it just complicates things now

 

[Orm Irian]

The Olympic schedule is neither a law of physics nor a fixed point in time. They can be moved, and have been before, so why the assumption that they'll happen as currently planned and therefore everything possible needs to be crammed in on as close to normal a timeline as possible?

 

[Sabine-Yuna]

The Olympic schedule is neither a law of physics nor a fixed point in time. They can be moved, and have been before, so why the assumption that they'll happen as currently planned and therefore everything possible needs to be crammed in on as close to normal a timeline as possible?

It's not an easy task to move the Olympics and if Tokyo takes place this summer, Beijing will go ahead as scheduled. As far as a vaccine will available soon I see no problem with the Beijing Olympics. It's just the qualification process that seems to be a bit of a problem for ISU. At the moment I still hope that Sweden will host Worlds in march or maybe in april (which would be still fine for the skaters) and a qualification competition in september should be possible as well.
Moving the Beijing Olympics will probably not happen.

 

[Miezekatze]

I don't really see a fundamental problem in holding big events like Euros or Worlds without spectators.

Other sports take place all the time, even right now, even indoor contact sports like handball and also international stuff.

I think one problem with skating is all the minors competing and the lack of big money in it.

Olympics will certainly be considered "important" and I think postponing any Olys again would cost too much money, so I'd guess the big stuff will always happen. And I don't really see a reason to think that events in Tokyo and Bejing will be cancelled, because those events are in countries that don't suck in controlling the pandemic I think they'll just work out good travel rules for competitors and coaches and allow not many other people in.

 

[Miezekatze]

I just read a new German article about a meeting between the IOC and Abe were they came to the conlusion that things look goog for Tokyo . It included the sentence though, that the IOC wants to make sure that athletes will be vaccinated if a vaccine is available, which I find a bit questionable for Tokyo.

That's certainly a very good idea when tons of vaccine is available one day, but I don't see that happening before summer 2021 and vaccinating athletes so thta they can take part in a big event when the vaccine is supposed to be used for people who need it the most would send a really shitty message IMO.

 

[MsZem]

I just read a new German article about a meeting between the IOC and Abe were they came to the conlusion that things look goog for Tokyo . It included the sentence though, that the IOC wants to make sure that athletes will be vaccinated if a vaccine is available, which I find a bit questionable for Tokyo.

That's certainly a very good idea when tons of vaccine is available one day, but I don't see that happening before summer 2021 and vaccinating athletes so thta they can take part in a big event when the vaccine is supposed to be used for people who need it the most would send a really shitty message IMO.

Given recent news, I expect vaccinations to be be available to high-priority individuals within the next few months, well before the Olympics. Even if Olympic athletes are not part of the first wave of people to get vaccines, it should be doable.

The big if to me isn't availability in general, but vaccination for athletes from developing countries. Pfizer-BioNTech and Moderna vaccines have very specific storage requirements that could hinder their use in many places. Will other vaccines, which should be easier to ship and store, be ready in time?

 

[Miezekatze]

Well my issue is with considering athletes "high priority individuals" during that phase of vaccinations.

Morally and ethically that seems pretty far fetched.

I think it will be a more than big task to vaccinate the most vulnerable and medical personnel until summer 2021.