ISU to evaluate feasibility of 2020-21 skating season

[Deleted member 221]

I wonder how performance enhancement (drugs and otherwise) could be monitored during a live virtual competition. Maybe I’m skeptical, but I wonder how many skaters would be doped up on meldonium with national doctors certifying samples. And what happens with a video outage or internet outage? Or a lag?

Certain skaters, especially those who are slow, have poor ice coverage, and have poor edge quality, would also seem to have an advantage.

Skaters who have improved their skating skills might also be judged by reputation rather than reality.

I see a host of problems, but probably better than nothing for challenger type events. For a National or World Championship, I’d be against it.

 

[hanca]

I wonder how performance enhancement (drugs and otherwise) could be monitored during a live virtual competition. Maybe I’m skeptical, but I wonder how many skaters would be doped up on meldonium with national doctors certifying samples. And what happens with a video outage or internet outage? Or a lag?

Certain skaters, especially those who are slow, have poor ice coverage, and have poor edge quality, would also seem to have an advantage.

Skaters who have improved their skating skills might also be judged by reputation rather than reality.

I see a host of problems, but probably better than nothing for challenger type events. For a National or World Championship, I’d be against it.

Yes, because the meldonium will miraculously help them land the jumps.

 

[thvu]

I see @Louis has joined the cult of negativity and skepticism.

 

[Debbie S]

I hadn't thought about PEDs, not sure that will be a problem (and I believe that only the winner and a random pick in each discipline get tested at comps anyway) but I think the concerns about speed and ice coverage, or lack thereof, are valid. Anyone who has attended a live comp (any comp) knows skaters (speaking generally) come across differently in person than on TV. I don't know if a video would capture all of the components that skaters are judged on, esp skating skills.

 

[Bigbird]

I hadn't thought about PEDs, not sure that will be a problem (and I believe that only the winner and a random pick in each discipline get tested at comps anyway) but I think the concerns about speed and ice coverage, or lack thereof, are valid. Anyone who has attended a live comp (any comp) knows skaters (speaking generally) come across differently in person than on TV. I don't know if a video would capture all of the components that skaters are judged on, esp skating skills.

PEDs would eventually be discovered and people stripped of medals? Why risk it as per Bobrova and company? Things will resolve themselves soon into something more practical.

 

[Sylvia]

Associated Press article by By Dave Skretta (includes quotes from Jason Brown & Karen Chen):

Peggy Fleming Trophy becomes virtual figure skating event

Peggy Fleming designed her namesake figure skating competition to highlight artistry in the sport, which the 1968 Olympic gold medalist thought had been pushed to the wayside in a modern era emphasizing triple and quadruple jumps.

apnews.com

“We put this together in probably six weeks,” Fleming told The Associated Press in a phone interview this week. “It had a lot of moving parts and the technology is way over my head — and my husband’s head — but we have a great group that pulled it together. The skaters record from their home rinks at the 50-yard line, kind of where the judges would sit, and we have a technical panel to score them and hopefully it will all work.”
The organizers have done several rehearsals to catch any potential glitches, and Fleming acknowledged nobody is quite sure how the event will go. But if it goes without a hitch, the virtual competition could provide important feedback — if not model — on conducting a figure skating season that is certain to be affected by the coronavirus pandemic.

@aftershocks posted a link to this local Colorado article in the U.S. Men's thread:

Peggy Fleming Trophy figure-skating competition goes virtual

With over 60 years of figure-skating experience, Peggy Fleming has learned to adapt to change. The latest challenge was when the COVID-19 pandemic forced the closure of ice rinks around

gazette.com

The entry fee for competitors was waived this year. Prize money will be awarded by Greg and Peggy Fleming Jenkins in partnership with the Broadmoor Skating Club to the winners: $3,000 for first place; $2,000 for second place and $1,000 for third place. Additionally, Peggy Fleming commissioned a special trophy sculpture for the Broadmoor Skating Club to celebrate the event.

 

[Deleted member 221]

I see @Louis has joined the cult of negativity and skepticism.

Despite the limitations, I'm OK with it for certain events and, as I said, it's better than nothing. I don't think we should crown European, 4CC, or World Champions from these events, though (ok, maybe we can crown 4CC champions from virtual events since so many skip it anyway); they would always have an asterisk.

I do worry about doping scandals, particularly from a country with a recent history of it..... Sorry, but I don't trust Russian officials to self-certify that their latest quad babies are clean.
I still think in-person events are feasible in certain parts of the world. I went to the orchestra tonight (and I feel like I'm in seventh heaven). Borders are opening up; airplane travel is not causing outbreaks; social distancing is possible.

 

[hanca]

Despite the limitations, I'm OK with it for certain events and, as I said, it's better than nothing. I don't think we should crown European, 4CC, or World Champions from these events, though (ok, maybe we can crown 4CC champions from virtual events since so many skip it anyway); they would always have an asterisk.

I do worry about doping scandals, particularly from a country with a recent history of it..... Sorry, but I don't trust Russian officials to self-certify that their latest quad babies are clean.
I still think in-person events are feasible in certain parts of the world. I went to the orchestra tonight (and I feel like I'm in seventh heaven). Borders are opening up; airplane travel is not causing outbreaks; social distancing is possible.

I know where you are coming from - if it is about trusting the officials. However, I think by now the Russian skaters proved that they can win regardless whether they take meldonium or not. Russian ladies have been at the top for a while, Russian ice dancers (Sinitsina/Katsalapov) have had a break through beating Papadakis/Cizeron, Russian pairs - Boikova/Kozlovski won the Europeans and many Russian junior skaters have been dominating at Russian junior worlds for several seasons. Do you really think it is worth it for them to take something and be caught, when they are winning without it? Come on, use your brain!

 

[Bigbird]

I know where you are coming from - if it is about trusting the officials. However, I think by now the Russian skaters proved that they can win regardless whether they take meldonium or not. Russian ladies have been at the top for a while, Russian ice dancers (Sinitsina/Katsalapov) have had a break through beating Papadakis/Cizeron, Russian pairs - Boikova/Kozlovski won the Europeans and many Russian junior skaters have been dominating at Russian junior worlds for several seasons. Do you really think it is worth it for them to take something and be caught, when they are winning without it? Come on, use your brain!

If the Russians would be dumb or greedy enough to do that they wouldn't even be able to compete under a neutral flag anymore. They'd be completely banned.

Also let's get real though S/K did not beat P/C. P/C and Alla S. gave them a leg up.

 

[starrynight]

I don’t see why everyone is concerned about melodonium.

Peformance enhancing drugs that assist in recovery of joints from the impact of jumping would be far more helpful than a bit of heart medication that may or may not make a big difference. ADHD medication is also a big one that can help athletes with concentration.

 

[hanca]

If the Russians would be dumb or greedy enough to do that they wouldn't even be able to compete under a neutral flag anymore. They'd be completely banned.

Also let's get real though S/K did not beat P/C. P/C and Alla S. gave them a leg up.

I think that’s your personal opinion. As much as I can’t stand Katsalapov, the bottom line is that S/K are the European champions. You may make any excuses for P/C, but the bottom line is they didn’t deliver when it counted, and in an interview afterwards they admitted it themselves that they had some difficulties during their preparation and that they haven’t skated as well as they would like. That to me suggest that S/K actually did beat them.

 

[Enchanted]

@hanca P/C couldn’t train normally and almost withdrew from Euros. Still, they almost won.

 

[Miezekatze]

In equestrian (which is also a judged sport, especially dressage) I think the international and national federations were quite strongly against virtual events (and I think there also were limitations on judges being allowed to take part in privately organized ones).

I think there are too many caveats because of "equality of competition conditions" issues (the one Louis mentioned certainly is one, but I think also the point that people would not skate/ride on the same ice/ground and probably a whole lot of others - what to do if the music gets out of sync with the video for skater A but not the others, what if the image freezes just when a skater was about the take of from his flutz or is going to land his underrotated quad...that could be a whole new way of cheating, ruin the internet connection at the right moment )

I'd see it more like some of extra competitions to enable something taking place at all and to help skaters get back in shape and get them some competition practice , but not something to really officially replace big events.

 

[Marco]

I wonder how performance enhancement (drugs and otherwise) could be monitored during a live virtual competition. Maybe I’m skeptical, but I wonder how many skaters would be doped up on meldonium with national doctors certifying samples. And what happens with a video outage or internet outage? Or a lag?

Certain skaters, especially those who are slow, have poor ice coverage, and have poor edge quality, would also seem to have an advantage.

Skaters who have improved their skating skills might also be judged by reputation rather than reality.

I see a host of problems, but probably better than nothing for challenger type events. For a National or World Championship, I’d be against it.

I was wondering about virtual competitions these few days and not sure how ISU may want to tackle these 2 issues in particular

1. drugs monitoring - i.e. how reliable is self-certification or how reliable is the pee being tested if the officials are not there to ensure they come directly from the skaters and at the right time?

2. camera requirements - do cameras follow the skaters (at camera man's discretion) or do they stay stationery from afar / top of the stadium so they can capture the speed and coverage? how many cameras? does this have to be consistent for all skaters?

 

[MacMadame]

I think for drugs since skating doesn't have a massive drug problem, the normal out of competition drug testing will be fine. And I think for cheesefest types of events, virtual competitions are fine too.

 

[tylersf]

LOL - They SHOULD do a test event like a mini-Worlds inviting 2 skaters from each country. Let's have a large panel of international judges. The results will be shocking. There will be heated debate on FSU, The Skating Lesson, Patrick and others. Justin Laem seems to have a calm opinion which I would love to hear anyway!

 

[tylersf]

You know what - let's see which skaters DO skate all roided up. All of a sudden we'll have a no-name skater from Antarctica win the competition hands down.
People will debate, get angry, clap back at each other and I will be hugely entertained watching the YouTube video reviews and posts here on FSU!!

I wonder how performance enhancement (drugs and otherwise) could be monitored during a live virtual competition. Maybe I’m skeptical, but I wonder how many skaters would be doped up on meldonium with national doctors certifying samples. And what happens with a video outage or internet outage? Or a lag?

Certain skaters, especially those who are slow, have poor ice coverage, and have poor edge quality, would also seem to have an advantage.

Skaters who have improved their skating skills might also be judged by reputation rather than reality.

I see a host of problems, but probably better than nothing for challenger type events. For a National or World Championship, I’d be against it.

 

[Deleted member 221]

@hanca, full props to all the Russian skaters who have won fair and square. But who's to say there won't be some new Russian baby with quints? There's recent history of Russia cheating, with doping covered up by the state. For any type of Euros / Worlds, I'd want to ensure some type of objective drug testing that does not depend on self-certification or national doctors. While Russia has the most recent history of doping, other countries - including the U.S. - could also use virtual competitions as incentive to cheat.

Cheesefest, fine. Skate America / Cup of Russia, fine. Euros or Worlds, I think we need some type of objective anti-doping system in place with reasonably equivalent process to what's done at physical championships.

 

[Bigbird]

As such most things will be on hold until there is a vaccine. Funnily enough if his royal Crumpness had not made this into a political issue we'd have had control of this situation months ago. Sad to know all this was so preventable. Who would have thunk it that government officials would be suing each other over mandatory mask wearing aimed at flattening the curve?

Figure skating is the absolute least at the moment.

 

[taz'smum]

@hanca, full props to all the Russian skaters who have won fair and square.

Firstly, figure skating is not an endurance or strength sport, so the skaters have less to gain from doping than other sports.

Secondly, the Russian skaters are having doping tests as normal, even in these difficult times.
(Tiff and Jon were tested recently, both in June and July)

So I really cannot see any problem with Russian skaters in online competitions from the doping perspective.

 

[Jeschke]

Firstly, figure skating is not an endurance or strength sport

Tell that to Aliev, Ignatov & Co right after the FS

 

[hanca]

@hanca P/C couldn’t train normally and almost withdrew from Euros. Still, they almost won.

Yeah, and I am almost a world champion. (If my parents took me to the rink when I was four, and I kept it up for the next 10-15 years). Unfortunately, almost doesn’t count.

 

[Lemonade20]

I wouldn’t mind seeing any skating happen. It would be interesting to see what happens next, I really like the idea of some fun skating. Competition or not, we need something to lift our spirits and take us away even if only for a few minutes.

 

[Sylvia]

TONIGHT (supposed to stream Friday from 7:00-8:30 pm Eastern time):

Third Annual Peggy Fleming Trophy Virtual Competition

Third Annual Peggy Fleming Trophy Virtual Competition

usfigureskatingfanzone.com

 

[MacMadame]

Tell that to Aliev, Ignatov & Co right after the FS

Just because it's hard, that doesn't mean it's an endurance or strength sport. It's a sprinter's sport.

Personally, I think if doping really helped, more skaters would do it and we'd see them being caught or see signs of the doping. So I don't think skaters aren't big on doping because I'm naive or because I don't want it to be true. I think it because of the science behind doping.

 

[starrynight]

Just because it's hard, that doesn't mean it's an endurance or strength sport. It's a sprinter's sport.

Personally, I think if doping really helped, more skaters would do it and we'd see them being caught or see signs of the doping. So I don't think skaters aren't big on doping because I'm naive or because I don't want it to be true. I think it because of the science behind doping.

Yes doping doesn't give skaters an easy fix like in some sports which can be basically fitness competitions.

Some kinds of doping would help with injury recovery which can provide more training time to keep doing endless repetitions. But that's really a side issue and only of use to a skater who can actually land jumps etc in the first place.

I'd be interested to know if many skaters were on ADHD medications as these are helpful for gymnasts. But again, for that to even be of use, the skaters would need to have the technical in the first place.

There might be a temptation for some of the pairs men to take strengthening substances - but then again, skaters just aren't getting caught doing it.

Most of the drug tests in skating have been mistakes/errors (WADA not knowing how long melodonium took to get out of the system, skaters accidentally taking the wrong flu medications) or just being caught with traces of party drugs.

I can't actually recall a proper doping violation expressly aimed at cheating?

 

[MacMadame]

I'd be interested to know if many skaters were on ADHD medications as these are helpful for gymnasts. But again, for that to even be of use, the skaters would need to have the technical in the first place.

Same for gymnasts having to have the technical. This may be possible though we don't hear about people having ADHD too much. (They'd need to be diagnosed with it in order to get a TUE.)

There might be a temptation for some of the pairs men to take strengthening substances - but then again, skaters just aren't getting caught doing it.

I think because it's a double-edged sword. If you get too big, it makes jumping harder. In some sports, you can't really have too much muscle but skating isn't one of them.

 

[concorde]

TONIGHT (supposed to stream Friday from 7:00-8:30 pm Eastern time):

Third Annual Peggy Fleming Trophy Virtual Competition

Third Annual Peggy Fleming Trophy Virtual Competition

usfigureskatingfanzone.com

I watched this and have very mixed feelings about whether I want this to be "future" of figure skating in the pandemic period.

Very big pro - Gives the skater an opportunity to showcase their skills through a competition. It also give the fan an audience to view those now skills. I think both of those are key in allowing the sport to move forward.

Cons
#1 Music selection. What works best with an audience may not work well in a virtual format and vice versa. At this point, music has been selected (and choreographed) for a in-person competition so I cannot see selections being changed.
#2 There is no way to mandate only 1 "take." Camden said he did 4 - he commented that each showed different strengths so it was hard to choose which version to submit. What is to stop a skater for taking 25 and then choosing the best? With technology the way it is, I can also see some even splicing different sections from different takes to create a "perfect" version. The work-around would be for the skater to "zoom" their skate at a set time; that could be very tricky (i.e., would the skater even have ice time at the set time?).
#3 Not all have the same quality of videographer. Those skater with weaker ones (ie., lack of zoom) could potentially be penalized.
#4 Not all rinks are created equal. Most have no window but some do. Depending on the time the video is filmed, that natural sunlight can be very distracting to the observer. In an in-person competition, all skaters would be subject to this but in virtual competitions, those with this issue have a disadvantage.

 

[Sylvia]

^^^ Maybe you'd like to re-post your thoughts in the Peggy Fleming Trophy watch/discussion thread? https://www.fsuniverse.net/forum/th...y-fleming-trophy-2020-virtual-edition.107405/

 

[PairSkater12345]

Ewww, gross. American cash is infiltrating Europe? YUCKY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Just remember every currency in the world is compared to George Washington's. Brexit Euro have their own major problems....lol